Punishing: Gray Raven | Power/ability removal

[Firestorm808]

It does encompass all abstract concepts, Lee's profile is a good example. His M.I.N.D space exists outside time and became a dimension of chaos, allowing him to record all his deaths in his battle across infinite pasts and futures.

Yes, there are so many I can't even count them honestly. I can pretty much give multiple examples of her being immune to literally everything in the verse up until another Watcher/Observer is created. The first is, she's completely immune to M.I.N.D space as well as normal consciousness like being able to just enter and exit the Commandant's mind. She's immune to the chaotic dreams of the Commandant after the result of them being corrupted by the Punishing Virus. She's immune to all of Luna Oblivion's abilities (which include type 1 CM and law manip), she's immune to all effects of the Hetero Tower which manifest the entire spacetime continuum and all of reality as a whole, while also allowing someone to transcend it, etc. There are even more examples if this isn't enough.

Are there statements of these alleged immunities?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Are there statements of these alleged immunities?

There is a statement that confirms superiority over everything there. Mmm...tbh, I didn't really wanna have to bring this up here but...ig I don't have a choice.

So...there's a concept introduced in the later story called "threads" which encompass every possible concept within reality (even existing within and beyond the Hetero Tower) and in general are what make up a civilization (civilizations in PGR are alternate 2A multiverse's just so you're aware) anyways, she teaches the Commandant how to control this power after he becomes a Watcher/Observer just like her. And "threads" are confirmed to scale below them, for reference "threads" scale above the Hetero Tower as shown in the scan, which is above Luna (and this type 1 CM scan), which is above all forks of reality, which is above dream/M.I.N.D space. So...yeah.

 

[Telomera]

I have my own reasons to disagree but you can’t just say none of this is nondual without saying anything else dude…ts pmo…

Idk what else to say. Existing outside of time is obviously not nondual, it just falls within the duality of "inside time" vs "not inside time", particularly the latter.

Being immune to hax, even being immune to all hax within the verse, is just being immune to certain hax. That just falls within the duality of "affected by these hax" vs "not affected by these hax" (obviously the latter). It's just hax resistance and doesn't require anything further, much less nonduality.

Neither of those things require nonduality and are instead entirely separate things from nonduality. I just hope that we can get this thread over with soon because it's kinda stupid and repetitive.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I must agree because the justification is bad and means Nothing on the profile.

The Primal Projection is an existence, that was formed by countless dimensions as an incorporeal entity with neither a fixed body nor unified consciousness, and was gathered by the constantly changing laws of causality

Like dawg, at least separate HDE, AE, ND, and NEP into their own abilities. Then explain what makes Ishmael Nondual in the first place, with its complete justification.

like this

Beings that have the Aspect of Absolution, have become Initial Flames formed from countless bits of information of both 'Existence', 'Non-Existence', and 'Ambiguity'. They can't be affected by any kind of complex or volatile skill, including ones that are illusory or spiritual, because they have transcended all boundaries. As such, even attacks that make every aspect and principle of the universe equal, parallel, symmetrical, balanced, stable, complementing, nullifying, and corresponding, ridding it of change and possibility, are unable to truly affect them

 

[Richtofen115rdg5]

Idk what else to say. Existing outside of time is obviously not nondual, it just falls within the duality of "inside time" vs "not inside time", particularly the latter.

Being immune to hax, even being immune to all hax within the verse, is just being immune to certain hax. That just falls within the duality of "affected by these hax" vs "not affected by these hax" (obviously the latter). It's just hax resistance and doesn't require anything further, much less nonduality.

Neither of those things require nonduality and are instead entirely separate things from nonduality. I just hope that we can get this thread over with soon because it's kinda stupid and repetitive.

Contact some admins or mods, their opinions can help end the thread soon

 

[Firestorm808]

@AlipheeseXIV

For the record, we still haven't received statement scans indicating that the alleged being is neither real nor fictional.

 

[Firestorm808]

It does encompass all abstract concepts, Lee's profile is a good example. His M.I.N.D space exists outside time and became a dimension of chaos, allowing him to record all his deaths in his battle across infinite pasts and futures.

Yes, there are so many I can't even count them honestly. I can pretty much give multiple examples of her being immune to literally everything in the verse up until another Watcher/Observer is created. The first is, she's completely immune to M.I.N.D space as well as normal consciousness like being able to just enter and exit the Commandant's mind. She's immune to the chaotic dreams of the Commandant after the result of them being corrupted by the Punishing Virus. She's immune to all of Luna Oblivion's abilities (which include type 1 CM and law manip), she's immune to all effects of the Hetero Tower which manifest the entire spacetime continuum and all of reality as a whole, while also allowing someone to transcend it, etc. There are even more examples if this isn't enough.

We still haven't received statement scans indicating that the alleged being is described as immune to certain states of being.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

@AlipheeseXIV

For the record, we still haven't received statement scans indicating that the alleged being is neither real nor fictional.

Well she is just a projection, it's precisely why she both does and doesn't exist. I've already sent a scan stating she is exists at the boundary between life and death and that her form defies description, I've sent that she's both apart of and not apart of the civilization and hence immune to the effects of the Tower and threads which make up everything in existence, and exists in a cosmic void. She also doesn't exist in simulations that show alternate realities and stuff either, with these simulations being an actual perfect calculation of potential futures. She doesn't exist in M.I.N.D space or dreams, idk what else could possibly prove she's neither real nor fictional/exists nor doesn't exist.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I must agree because the justification is bad and means Nothing on the profile.


Like dawg, at least separate HDE, AE, ND, and NEP into their own abilities. Then explain what makes Ishmael Nondual in the first place, with its complete justification.

Yeah, I'll admit the justification was pretty bad

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

like this

Also, I'm looking at this. Justification aside, it functions very similarly to Ishmael. A lot of that stuff is the same for her

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Also, I'm looking at this. Justification aside, it functions very similarly to Ishmael. A lot of that stuff is the same for her

I don't really see it lol, there's no blatant implications that the multiverse is made of "Existence" "Non-existence" and "Ambiguity" like my scan.

And then there this scan (which is ND type 2 nullification) that Ishmael doesn't really have and will cook her if this ability hit her.

even attacks that make every aspect and principle of the universe equal, parallel, symmetrical, balanced, stable, complementing, nullifying, and corresponding, ridding it of change and possibility, are unable to truly affect them

 

[Firestorm808]

Well she is just a projection, it's precisely why she both does and doesn't exist.

No scan provided.

I've already sent a scan stating she is exists at the boundary between life and death

This is not justification of being independent or beyond the system.

and that her form defies description,

No scan provided.

I've sent that she's both apart of and not apart of the civilization and hence immune to the effects of the Tower and threads which make up everything in existence,

No scan provided.

and exists in a cosmic void.

This is not justification of being independent or beyond the system.

She also doesn't exist in simulations that show alternate realities and stuff either, with these simulations being an actual perfect calculation of potential futures.

No scan provided.

She doesn't exist in M.I.N.D space or dreams, idk what else could possibly prove she's neither real nor fictional/exists nor doesn't exist.

No scan provided.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I don't really see it lol, there's no blatant implications that the multiverse is made of "Existence" "Non-existence" and "Ambiguity" like my scan.

Well I should've been a bit clearer, the implications are not there on her profile. But they exist, tho yeah the "ambiguity" part is not there but I don't think it's needed.

And then there this scan (which is ND type 2 nullification) that Ishmael doesn't really have and will cook her if this ability hit her.

Well yeah we don't have that lmao

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

No scan provided.

This is not justification of being independent or beyond the system.

No scan provided.

No scan provided.

This is not justification of being independent or beyond the system.

No scan provided.

No scan provided.

Well damn, would've thought you'd have at least checked the profile. So I didn't send the scans, I'll send them now

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

No scan provided.

Scan.

This is not justification of being independent or beyond the system.

Clarify, what system?

No scan provided.

The scan is literally in the previous one, it seems you're just not reading it.

No scan provided.

Scan.

This is not justification of being independent or beyond the system.

She can't be dependent on life and death and exist in the boundary between it, please clarify.

No scan provided.

This one I'll go find, give me a sec

No scan provided.

There is no single scan to prove this, as it's just narratively implied through the entire stage. Would you like me to send you the entire stage so you can see she doesn't appear in Lee's M.I.N.D that has recorded all deaths and failures of himself fighting different possibilities throughout the past and future? The same Lee btw, who has battled her already in the future as it clearly states that it's not his first time being at the Gate same person is unable to see her in his own M.I.N.D space that I just sent has recorded all deaths and failures of himself fighting throughout all of time.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

The scan is literally in the previous one, it seems you're just not reading it.

Literally says it here

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

This one I'll go find, give me a sec

The Commandant doesn't even appear in simulations due to being an anchor point which is the world's beginning and it's ending. These scans are during chapter 32 (exact nodes 32-6 Solitary City for the first scan, 32-14 Beyond the Ruins for the second) which happens before he passes through the Gateway and becomes a projection becoming a similar being to Ishmael this would thus obviously scale to Ishmael

 

[Telomera]

Scan.

All this says is that Ishmael has a projection. Absolutely nothing about her being nondual and that she "both exists and doesn't exist."

Literally says it here

"Defies description" isn't enough for nonduality.

Scan.

That doesn't establish that her projection is both part of and not part of civilization, so it doesn't prove nonduality. This is simply a dual state where she is not part of civilization, there is nothing confirming that she simultaneously is a part of civilization.

Also, keep in mind that it is not clarified whether Ishmael is talking about her projection or her true self. It is possible for her projection to be in one dual state and her true self in another without any sort of nonduality being involved. On top of that, even if you were to prove that Ishmael was in a nondual state with regards to civilization, this would only prove ND1, not ND2.

She can't be dependent on life and death and exist in the boundary between it, please clarify.

Life and death isn't a strict logical duality. Zombies for example could be said to be "at the boundary between life and death" without being nondual at all. You could even say that a dying person in real life is "at the boundary between life and death." This isn't a result of nonduality, it's a result of the fact that the concepts of life and death are naturally fuzzy, so they overlap quite a bit.

And of course, as mentioned earlier in this thread, you could be outside of life and death entirely while not being nondual. Rocks are neither alive nor dead yet they're not nondual. This is because life and death are not a logical duality. Death is not the same as not-life.

The same Lee btw, who has battled her already in the future as it clearly states that it's not his first time being at the Gate same person is unable to see her in his own M.I.N.D space that I just sent has recorded all deaths and failures of himself fighting throughout all of time.

Where does it say that Ishmael doesn't show up in his M.I.N.D space?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

All this says is that Ishmael has a projection. Absolutely nothing about her being nondual and that she "both exists and doesn't exist."

"Defies description" isn't enough for nonduality.

You weren't the one who asked for the scans, you also don't even understand what's written on the page so there's really no point in me answering you about this when you don't even know the difference between dualities and nondual and have yet to even clarify at all what "not being nondual" means you're just parroting it without offering any actual constructive argument.

That doesn't establish that her projection is both part of and not part of civilization, so it doesn't prove nonduality. This is simply a dual state where she is not part of civilization, there is nothing confirming that she simultaneously is a part of civilization.

Also, keep in mind that it is not clarified whether Ishmael is talking about her projection or her true self. It is possible for her projection to be in one dual state and her true self in another without any sort of nonduality being involved. On top of that, even if you were to prove that Ishmael was in a nondual state with regards to civilization, this would only prove ND1, not ND2.

No, she is strictly talking about her projection because it literally revolves around a scene where she is in her projection. This is nonsensical.

Life and death isn't a strict logical duality. Zombies for example could be said to be "at the boundary between life and death" without being nondual at all. You could even say that a dying person in real life is "at the boundary between life and death." This isn't a result of nonduality, it's a result of the fact that the concepts of life and death are naturally fuzzy, so they overlap quite a bit.

This is just a stretch, this analogy is completely useless because it's clear it's not referring to zombies or a dying person in real life.

Where does it say that Ishmael doesn't show up in his M.I.N.D space?

Facepalms
Yeah, I'll just reply to firestorm or anyone else with constructive arguments from now on I'm not really trying to exhaust myself with you

 

[Telomera]

No, she is strictly talking about her projection because it literally revolves around a scene where she is in her projection. This is nonsensical.

That's fine, I was just wondering if it was talking about her projection or her true self. But this still doesn't solve the issue that you haven't shown that her projection is simultaneously part of civilization while not being part of civilization. Her not being a part of civilization is perfectly dual. And again, even if she were simultaneously part of and not part of civilization, this would still be ND1 at best and not ND2.

This is just a stretch, this analogy is completely useless because it's clear it's not referring to zombies or a dying person in real life.

Do you not get how analogies work? Ishmael may not be a dying person or a zombie, but that doesn't change the fact that life and death are fuzzy concepts that naturally overlap and the fact that "life and death" isn't a logical duality. The point of me bringing up zombies, rocks, and dying people in real life is merely to illustrate those facts about life and death.

You weren't the one who asked for the scans, you also don't even understand what's written on the page so there's really no point in me answering you about this when you don't even know the difference between dualities and nondual and have yet to even clarify at all what "not being nondual" means you're just parroting it without offering any actual constructive argument.

Facepalms
Yeah, I'll just reply to firestorm or anyone else with constructive arguments from now on I'm not really trying to exhaust myself with you

Being this dismissive of my arguments doesn't reflect very well on you at all. FIrestorm808 seems to like my arguments, yet you disregard them as if I'm some troll trying to derail the thread.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

That's fine, I was just wondering if it was talking about her projection or her true self. But this still doesn't solve the issue that you haven't shown that her projection is simultaneously part of civilization while not being part of civilization. Her not being a part of civilization is perfectly dual. And again, even if she were simultaneously part of and not part of civilization, this would still be ND1 at best and not ND2.

Civilization is all of reality, would not be ND1 by definition.

Do you not get how analogies work? Ishmael may not be a dying person or a zombie, but that doesn't change the fact that life and death are fuzzy concepts that naturally overlap and the fact that "life and death" isn't a logical duality. The point of me bringing up zombies, rocks, and dying people in real life is merely to illustrate those facts about life and death.

Yes, but it's blatantly obvious that it is not so fuzzy here as I have already shown with how information is treated in PGR. I am not at all shocked you either don't remember or have not read that though.

Being this dismissive of my arguments doesn't reflect very well on you at all. FIrestorm808 seems to like my arguments, yet you disregard them as if I'm some troll trying to derail the thread.

So am I to take this as your arguments reflecting what Firestorm himself seems to...by your words...somewhat agree with? I also am not disregarding you as if you're a troll I'm disregarding you cuz you're not reading. Something both of you have done actually, anyways let's go along with your argument (and assume based off what you said that Firestorm likes said argument)

Riddle me this will you? Why would Lee who's seen all the memories of himself fighting in the past and future ask Ishmael what she is if it isn't his first time being at the Gate? I'm very much curious to know, because it's painfully obvious he's asking these questions because he DIDN'T see her in his M.I.N.D space.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

There is no single scan to prove this, as it's just narratively implied through the entire stage. Would you like me to send you the entire stage so you can see she doesn't appear in Lee's M.I.N.D that has recorded all deaths and failures of himself fighting different possibilities throughout the past and future?

I also blatantly stated here that there is no single scan to prove this as it is narratively implied, and even asked specifically firestorm if he'd like me to send him the stage so he can confirm said narrative himself. Something you clearly disregarded or didn't read, and something I have not gotten a response on

 

[Telomera]

Civilization is all of reality, would not be ND1 by definition.

Fine. You still haven't proven any sort of nonduality though. She's just not part of civilization, which is in fact a state that fits into dualism.

Riddle me this will you? Why would Lee who's seen all the memories of himself fighting in the past and future ask Ishmael what she is if it isn't his first time being at the Gate? I'm very much curious to know, because it's painfully obvious he's asking these questions because he DIDN'T see her in his M.I.N.D space.

Honestly, I made a mistake by arguing about this at all because not showing up in M.I.N.D still wouldn't prove nonduality at all. That's all I'm going to say about it.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

And now we're just back to this...expected. Fair enough, I'll wait for firestorm's reply

 

[Firestorm808]

Well damn, would've thought you'd have at least checked the profile. So I didn't send the scans, I'll send them now

I did. None of these claims you gave are on the profile or have scans.

It is the responsibility of the arguing parties to provide "scans, quotes, video clips, accepted calculations, or any other direct proof that claimed events actually happened in the source material."

 

[Firestorm808]

1. Well she is just a projection, it's precisely why she both does and doesn't exist.
   1. Scan.
   2. Projecting ones being from a higher dimension isn't grounds for non/trans duality.
2. I've already sent a scan stating she is exists at the boundary between life and death
   1. Clarify, what system?
   2. The system of reality and unreality. Additionally, being at the "boundary between" life and death doesn't qualify as being independent or beyond the life/death system.
3. and that her form defies description,
   1. The scan is literally in the previous one, it seems you're just not reading it.
   2. Apologies. I was on mobile at the time and didn't catch it.
   3. In any case, defying description doesn't mean much without further context.
4. I've sent that she's both apart of and not apart of the civilization and hence immune to the effects of the Tower and threads which make up everything in existence,
   1. Scan.
   2. I don't see how not belonging to their world and not being part of their civilization has any relation to a dual system.
5. and exists in a cosmic void.
   1. She can't be dependent on life and death and exist in the boundary between it, please clarify.
   2. Existing in a void doesn't have any relation to a dual system.
6. She also doesn't exist in simulations that show alternate realities and stuff either, with these simulations being an actual perfect calculation of potential futures.
   1. The Commandant doesn't even appear in simulations due to being an anchor point which is the world's beginning and it's ending. These scans are during chapter 32 (exact nodes 32-6 Solitary City for the first scan, 32-14 Beyond the Ruins for the second) which happens before he passes through the Gateway and becomes a projection becoming a similar being to Ishmael this would thus obviously scale to Ishmael
   2. Not being predicted in simulations doesn't have any relation to a dual system.
7. She doesn't exist in M.I.N.D space or dreams, idk what else could possibly prove she's neither real nor fictional/exists nor doesn't exist.
   1. There is no single scan to prove this, as it's just narratively implied through the entire stage. Would you like me to send you the entire stage so you can see she doesn't appear in Lee's M.I.N.D that has recorded all deaths and failures of himself fighting different possibilities throughout the past and future? The same Lee btw, who has battled her already in the future as it clearly states that it's not his first time being at the Gate same person is unable to see her in his own M.I.N.D space that I just sent has recorded all deaths and failures of himself fighting throughout all of time.
   2. The description you provided doesn't relate to being independent or beyond a dual system.

Overall, I am leaning against there being a concrete justification for non/trans duality being demonstrated.

Feel free to discuss the topic with other staff on the matter.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

1. Well she is just a projection, it's precisely why she both does and doesn't exist.
   1. Scan.
   2. Projecting ones being from a higher dimension isn't grounds for non/trans duality.
2. I've already sent a scan stating she is exists at the boundary between life and death
   1. Clarify, what system?
   2. The system of reality and unreality. Additionally, being at the "boundary between" life and death doesn't qualify as being independent or beyond the life/death system.
3. and that her form defies description,
   1. The scan is literally in the previous one, it seems you're just not reading it.
   2. Apologies. I was on mobile at the time and didn't catch it.
   3. In any case, defying description doesn't mean much without further context.
4. I've sent that she's both apart of and not apart of the civilization and hence immune to the effects of the Tower and threads which make up everything in existence,
   1. Scan.
   2. I don't see how not belonging to their world and not being part of their civilization has any relation to a dual system.
5. and exists in a cosmic void.
   1. She can't be dependent on life and death and exist in the boundary between it, please clarify.
   2. Existing in a void doesn't have any relation to a dual system.
6. She also doesn't exist in simulations that show alternate realities and stuff either, with these simulations being an actual perfect calculation of potential futures.
   1. The Commandant doesn't even appear in simulations due to being an anchor point which is the world's beginning and it's ending. These scans are during chapter 32 (exact nodes 32-6 Solitary City for the first scan, 32-14 Beyond the Ruins for the second) which happens before he passes through the Gateway and becomes a projection becoming a similar being to Ishmael this would thus obviously scale to Ishmael
   2. Not being predicted in simulations doesn't have any relation to a dual system.
7. She doesn't exist in M.I.N.D space or dreams, idk what else could possibly prove she's neither real nor fictional/exists nor doesn't exist.
   1. There is no single scan to prove this, as it's just narratively implied through the entire stage. Would you like me to send you the entire stage so you can see she doesn't appear in Lee's M.I.N.D that has recorded all deaths and failures of himself fighting different possibilities throughout the past and future? The same Lee btw, who has battled her already in the future as it clearly states that it's not his first time being at the Gate same person is unable to see her in his own M.I.N.D space that I just sent has recorded all deaths and failures of himself fighting throughout all of time.
   2. The description you provided doesn't relate to being independent or beyond a dual system.

Overall, I am leaning against there being a concrete justification for non/trans duality being demonstrated.

Feel free to discuss the topic with other staff on the matter.

Please notify other staff then

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

It is the responsibility of the arguing parties to provide "scans, quotes, video clips, accepted calculations, or any other direct proof that claimed events actually happened in the source material."

Me when the opposing party used zero relevant scans, quotes, video clips, accepted calcs or any other direct proof for any of their arguments

Also please clarify your stance on this CRT, the ND is not the only thing being proposed for a removal.

 

[FinePoint]

It seems to me there is not sufficient proof of the abilities on the profile, so I am fine with removing them for now.

 

[Telomera]

It seems to me there is not sufficient proof of the abilities on the profile, so I am fine with removing them for now.

How many more votes do we need for this thread? Both you and FIrestorm808 agree with it.

 

[Richtofen115rdg5]

It seems to me there is not sufficient proof of the abilities on the profile, so I am fine with removing them for now.

The only thing that can be removed is ND2. NEP1 has a proper scan as showed above

 

[Firestorm808]

Please notify other staff then

@Agnaa

@Mr. Bambu

@DarkDragonMedeus

Your input is appreciated.

 

[Telomera]

The only thing that can be removed is ND2. NEP1 has a proper scan as showed above

We don't have a translation for it. Any other staff who give their input here should evaluate that as well.

 

[Telomera]

Your input is appreciated.

What's your take on NEP and restoration btw? FinePoint just said that "the abilities" in general lack justification so it kinda seems he agrees with taking down all the powers mentioned in the OP.

It seems to me there is not sufficient proof of the abilities on the profile, so I am fine with removing them for now.

Do you agree with taking down NEP (and incorporeality by extension) and restoration as well?

 

[Richtofen115rdg5]

We don't have a translation for it. Any other staff who give their input here should evaluate that as well.

We do

 

[Telomera]

We do

"An incorporeal entity"? I mean I guess that qualifies for incorporeality, but that's not NEP at all.

Also, is that passage talking about Ishmael as a whole or just her projection specifically? It seems like the former because the text is initially talking about "them" and only proceeds to talk about the projection AFTER that. Considering this, it seems it would be appropriate to give incorporeality to Ishmael's watcher key specifically and not her projection key.

 

[Firestorm808]

What's your take on NEP and restoration btw? FinePoint just said that "the abilities" in general lack justification so it kinda seems he agrees with taking down all the powers mentioned in the OP.

Do you agree with taking down NEP (and incorporeality by extension) and restoration as well?

• "Additionally, Ishmael is listed as having NEP with regards to body and mind due to a scan saying that she's "empty" as well as being "Shapeless and soulless." The issue here is that this just isn't NEP. There is no indication here that Ishmael has a nonexistent physical body which is a necessary prerequisite for NEP. There isn't any indication of her having a nonexistent mind either even though she's listed as having NEP with aspect 3 (nonexistent mind)."
  • Non-physical beings (no body) have one of the following: Incorporeality, Abstract Existence, or Nonexistent Physiology
  • "Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of one's existence, to paradoxically 'exist,' yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence.' While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction."
    • "Material Nonexistence:The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms, that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul."
      • "Mental Nonexistence: These are characters whose mind is nonexistent. Characters with this type are hence immune to regular Mind Manipulation and related abilities."
      • "Spiritual Nonexistence: These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation."
  • When they regard body, do they mean that the entity is immaterial/lacking physical matter or an abstract?
  • When they regard mind, do they imply that there is no "will" or "literal thought" so to speak behind the enity's actions and behaviors?
  • Lacking the soul aspect seems okay.
• "There's also no proof of incorporeality or restoration either (although I feel like Alipheese might have some proof of incorporeality that he hasn't provided yet) so those should be removed as well."
  • "Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept."
  • This is linked to being immaterial/lacking physical matter or an abstract.
  • If I recall from earlier, due to [insert reason] projections of themselves from a higher dimension are used. Is this correct? What is the reason for using projections?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

We don't have a translation for it. Any other staff who give their input here should evaluate that as well.

We do have a translation for it, not sure why you're trying to speak for supporters when you aren't a supporter.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

• Additionally, Ishmael is listed as having NEP with regards to body and mind due to a scan saying that she's "empty" as well as being "Shapeless and soulless." The issue here is that this just isn't NEP. There is no indication here that Ishmael has a nonexistent physical body which is a necessary prerequisite for NEP. There isn't any indication of her having a nonexistent mind either even though she's listed as having NEP with aspect 3 (nonexistent mind).
  • Non-physical beings (no body) have one of the following: Incorporeality, Abstract Existence, or Nonexistent Physiology
  • Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of one's existence, to paradoxically 'exist,' yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence.' While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction.
    • Material Nonexistence:The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms, that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul.
      • Mental Nonexistence: These are characters whose mind is nonexistent. Characters with this type are hence immune to regular Mind Manipulation and related abilities.
      • Spiritual Nonexistence: These are characters whose soul and/or astral body is nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular Soul Manipulation.
  • When they regard body, do they mean that the entity is immaterial/lacking physical matter or an abstract?
  • When they regard mind, do they imply that there is no "will" or "literal thought" so to speak behind the enity's actions and behaviors?
  • Lacking the soul aspect seems okay.
• There's also no proof of incorporeality or restoration either (although I feel like Alipheese might have some proof of incorporeality that he hasn't provided yet) so those should be removed as well.
  • Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept.
  • This is linked to being immaterial/lacking physical matter or an abstract.
  • If I recall from earlier, due to [insert reason] projections of themselves from a higher dimension are used. Is this correct? What is the reason for using projections?

Umm...can you format this better so it's easier to actually digest and read? I'm not even sure for some of these at which moment you're just quoting stuff or adding in your own personal opinion

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

We do have a translation for it, not sure why you're trying to speak for supporters when you aren't a supporter.

Translated here. Both versions of the scan can be used to support lack of soul/mind.