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Prototype Downgrades

ByAsura said:
He doesn't even destroy a full building, just well under half, and it's not that large.
I was thinking he could be far higher with devastator, since the exact power is unknown and they're always clearly above a character's normal level of power.
Click to expand...
oh yeah the devestators produce a larger amount of damage then the charater can produce by themself

but that wasn't really the point

the point was that the sheer amount of mass that devestator had(all of which was in mercer prior to his consumtion) would elevate mercer quite a bit above 9A via sheer mass and density
 
I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.
 
@Sir sun man Devastators are an expulsion of all the biomass within them. It still wouldn't scale to Mercer.
 
Uh, while it was agreed that Power Nullification gets removed, shouldn't Mercer retain his resistance to Biological Manipulation?

Even without taking into account of Mercer gaining resistance to the Parasite (which was actively making Mercer's own body destroy itself from the inside and out), Mercer was growing more resistant to biological chemicals made specifically to harm infected beings like him such as Bloodtox (which is used to purge infected creatures) and was able to shrug off mass exposure to it during his attempt to "fake his downfall" to get to Raymond McMullen later. Shouldn't that be enough to be considered as Resistance to Biologcal Manipulation?
 
I believe Mercer says Bloodtox causes necrosis in infected tissue, if that supports your point.
 
Necrosis basically means death of cells, especially in an organ or tissue. Biological Manipulation page includes Cellular manipulation as a type of its abilities from what I can recall. I think resisting Bloodtox could be enough to qualify, probably.
 
I know what necrosis is.

Ok.

Edit: Here a Blackwatch soldier says Bloodtox is a form of poison, though he might not be literal. I'll link the necrosis stuff soon.
 
"The "miltary base" that this explodes isn't much larger than a single, not very large building. This isn't 8-A, guys."

Its been discussed in almost all of these Prototype threads that the outside of the base is visually represented as small in-game. Even once you go inside of the building in-game the interior is vastly larger on the inside than is shown on the outside as also shown by the concept art (which is almost exactly the same as the in-game interior minus a few details). It has also been discussed several time that explosions of such magnitude in the game would be building busting outside of game mechanics, not the entire foundation of the building remaining undamaged, and only half the walls being blown up.

"I think 9-A works out. M1 Abrams is listed as up to there with it's main gun, and he can take hits from tanks. There's also a thermobaric tank. Thermobaric munitions set the air on fire and create a blast wave that lasts much longer than standard munitions, and as shown by this video they've got quite the blast radius. Alex can barely survive the thermobaric tank if he has adrenaline surge, so I think 9-A off the higher end for regular tanks along with barely surviving the much stronger one is fine.

The thermobaric tank also does 1 shot a regular tank with an indirect hit, so I don't think how it nearly kills Alex on a direct hit makes it unusable. At worst he's more durable than a tank. Yeah ik nobody claimed this yet just putting it here. Agree with the OP on the other stuff though."

The thermobaric tank also 1-shots any of the bases or hives and I'm sure the calcs have been done for destroying those buildings. It couldn't bust a building that Greene's biomass covered, so Alex consuming her means he's at least multiple times stronger than that. If we agree to the building size then there is no reason why this shouldn't be used.

Prototype 2 thermobaric missiles are the same type as used in Prototype 1, and James Heller's shields can completely negate the damage, and he can take multiple of these missiles before his health reaches 0. He's even consumed two goliaths who are capable of being blown up by multiple thermobaric missiles and are capable of breaking his shields, and consumed an alpha juggernaut with ease, and their in-game power-up literally lets you one-shot any enemy in the game (except for Alex because he's not there during that mission), which leads me to believe they're even stronger than goliaths.

With this, even though P1 shows him nearly dying to it, logically he should've been more durable after consuming Greene, but he's definitely comparable to Heller as far as withstanding them in P2.

"The heaviest tanks the United States produces doesn't get into Class K, I have no idea where this is sourced from."

Class K: 10^5 to 10^6 kg (Read: 100,000-1,000,000)

An M1A1 tank is 57,000kg. Despite the fact he lifts this quite easily (and at the start of the game), musclemass doubles this, making it 104,000kg. Musclemass boost > musclemass.

"This explosio reduces Mercer to bloody gore. For reference as to the size of this bomb, this is the fireball of the explosio and even with overpressure I doubt it's anything larger than the Hiroshima bomb. Now, keep in mind, Alex was hundreds if not thousands of meters away from this explosion, inside of a helicopter, so the surface area where he gets hit by this bomb is so many order of magnitude less than the yeild of the bomb that I'd be amazed if it's above 9-B. And he's reduced to a bloody pulp."

The math was done here, 0.44 tons of tnt worth of durability at his distance from impact, or 1.84e9 joules. Since he was splattered, his durability would obviously be way less than that. A tank's main cannon is 1.6x stronger than TNT and he eats these. This is a durability difference of almost 4 times, so there's a discrepancy between the nuke killing him and feats he's had since the first mission of the game.

"If there was any statements in-verse about this being a multi-megaton bomb or whatever, I'm sad to explain that what's shown on-screen is more reliable than a potentially faulty character statement. And even if this was a multi-megaton thermonuclear bomb, I'll revise my statement to that I'd be amazed if it's above 9-B+."

In the calc used above, the nuke results come from the on-screen in-game military nuclear projections, the picture is provided.

"It should go without saying that the primary enemies Alex fights in the game are completely normal military goons. Tanks and high-level artiliery can easily hurt him. And sure, if Alex had more than a single incorrectly calculated feat to support his tier I might wave this off as PIS, but I guess this is where we're at."

They hurt him because of game mechanics. Fresh out of the morgue, Alex was hit by a hellfire missile and only did a backflip because the force pushed him, and immediately proceeded to destroy said helicopter with a car.

In the final fight with the Supreme Hunter, he's also being attacked by helicopters and jets, which are largely distractions. Marines use F-35s mainly, which looks like the jets that are displayed in-game. The main heavy firepower of an F-35 is the main heavy weaponry the aircraft carries. In the video you see several jets and helicopters, with several lines of bombs and missiles on carts, presumably waiting to be loaded in.

You might see this as a stretch, but the bombs on the carts near the jet look remarkably close to the Mark 84 bombs, and if you choose to, you can cheese your way through the fight by throwing these at the Supreme Hunter for chip damage, though I'm certain throwing all the explosives available on the ship still isn't enough to kill him.
 
Even if we use fan art, which isn't even fully representative of gameplay as there's significantly more tanks and stuff than what's in-game, the explosion wasn't caused by 1 fuel tank, it was 6 and Mercer wouldn't have enough surface area to tank the entire detonation.

We've agreed absorbing things doesn't stack power onto heller and Mercer, it just makes them stronger. They're consistently harmed by the same things throughout the games.
 
Power Nullification, or Negation, is the ability to simply nullify the powers and abilities of others, negating their effects. The mechanisms by which this effect is accomplished and their restrictions vary from character to character, but the ability is often limited to a certain type of power, such as supernatural phenomena in general, or magic.

Under types of Power Nullification we have Immortality / Regenerationn Negation. Regenerationn has to do with biology in most cases, so I don't understand why biology-based power nullification is being argued here.
 
ByAsura said:
Even if we use fan art, which isn't even fully representative of gameplay as there's significantly more tanks and stuff than what's in-game, the explosion wasn't caused by 1 fuel tank, it was 6 and Mercer wouldn't have enough surface area to tank the entire detonation.
Click to expand...
Its not fan art, its concept art, as in actually designed by the game's artists. And I'm not talking about the fuel tanks nor did I mention them. I was discussing the thermobaric tank feats.
 
I meant concept art, sorry. So was a lot of stuff, yet we don't see Mercer producing spikes from his body.
 
Except for the fact that the concept art of the base was an idea that was actually implemented in the game with only minor internal structural differences. The inside of the base is capable of fitting a platoon of tanks whereas the outside shows that maybe 3-4 tanks are capable of lining the entire width of the building.
 
No, it's completely different. There's only one fuel tank and everything else is completely re ordered, such as the spire in the middle of the base, all of those cages that didn't exist, and the tank/infantry entrances. That's not even mentioning how the base is 10x larger.

It doesn't matter if the interior is larger than the exterior, that's no reason to use concept art.
 
The contents of the room being changed doesn't necessarily mean the entire room was changed. The only other way to get an accurate representation of the inside is for someone that has the game to go in and get us in-game estimations, but I don't think anyone does.

But I think we can agree (as it has been agreed on several times in the past) that the outside visuals are vastly smaller than the inside.
 
It's not just the centre, as I explained. I believe there's a way of scaling it, so I'll look into that.

I do agree.

By the way, Mercer lifted an A.P.C, not an M1A1.

Mark 84s have a yield of 863 megajoules. That's Small Building level+. Makes sense, honestly, given that Mercer has grown in strength throughout the game, and he's clearly inferior to the Supreme Hunter, even with musclemass and armour.
 
In Prototype 1 when you destroy a tank (leaving it in its same form but charred due to fire and minus the part of the tank with the gun attachments that gets blown off), you can actually throw it for distance.

Doing a quick draw-up using closer scaling than before, the height of the building is probably around 25 meters, but from what I can see I got 22 meters. The calculation based on the concept art got 66 meters in height, so even lazily applying that same ratio of the new measurements being 33% of what was currently used, the result is just over 8-A for the tank being able to bust the building in one shot.
 
ByAsura said:
@Sir sun man Devastators are an expulsion of all the biomass within them. It still wouldn't scale to Mercer.
Click to expand...
Also devastators are used through critical mass, which in-game means excess biomass.

So its not really them using all the biomass within them as it is them utilizing the current excess of power they have.
 
I know, but that's the completely wrecked, blackened husk that's lost multiple parts. The engine alone, which appears to be destroyed, weighs 1.5 tonnes alone, while the armour plating (which seems to explode off) is much heavier.

The base is also much wider and taller proportionally in the concept art. The guy there is a bit too far way from the tank, so it inflated the results a tad.
 
I applied the ratio of 33% to all sides, making it a considerable lowball since that would mean the old width of 73 meters is now 24.09 meters which would make the width appear as long as the height, which is far from the case.

Also I think for all intents and purposes he can lift an entire tank, considering he casually flipped an APC that weighs roughly half of the tank with one arm multiple stories high at a much higher level.
 
That doesn't really seem to be in-line with this. Maybe try all of them individually.

That's not enough for Class K with musclemass. Though I'd say a "likely" is in order.
 
"That doesn't really seem to be in-line with this."

I'm not getting what you're not getting.

Also the half of the tank still remaining is still largely intact. Other examples include the claws groundspike move which allows Alex to thrust an intact tank into the air with the biomass of one hand.

Also using the hammerfists raises tanks off the ground with each blow.
 
The height of the base is like 2x the width in that photo.

I misremembered the weight and his second enhancement, Mercer's musclemass strength in Protoype 2 would be slightly over baseline Class K from lifting that M2 with one hand. He doesn't lift the tank there, his spikes shunt it into the air, it's an AP feat and I doubt it translates to his musclemass-enhanced lifting.

That's probably around Class 50.
 
I'll comment in a few due to being occupied for much of today, but ByAsura is on point with his responses.

I would like to note that this CRT was already accepted and applied and was only reopened so that I could post updates on the progress of applying it, so if there's any more serious objections to this CRT, it might be best to bring them up in a seperate thread, although I don't mind adressing some of the more obviously incorrect stuff in Callsign's post later.
 
"He doesn't lift the tank there, it's clearly an AP feat from his spikes."

By definition that is lifting.

"Lifting Strength is defined as the mass that an individual can lift on Earth. In other words it measures the amount of upwards force a character can produce"

"Likewise throwing or punching an object a certain height upwards can be used as lifting feats, as these would require greater strength then just lifting the object."
 
Test is done.

> Even once you go inside of the building in-game the interior is vastly larger on the inside than is shown on the outside as also shown by the concept art (which is almost exactly the same as the in-game interior minus a few details).

I'd like an actual substantiation of this outside of "discussed on other threads", although there's not really anything saying that the opposite isn't more likely to be true: that the interior was made larger for gameplay purposes (this is actually done with a lot of games as levels often need to be larger than a structure would reasonably occupy).

The concept art is for designing part of the level, which ties into this being a part of gameplay even if you manage to substantiate the inside being larger than the outside. If you draw concept art of a bad level design so that it matches outside sizes, you aren't really accomplishing anything except for maybe establishing a set of assets.

> that explosions of such magnitude in the game would be building busting outside of game mechanics, not the entire foundation of the building remaining undamaged, and only half the walls being blown up.

Actually, not really. There's multiple explosions that are set off in key places inside of the building that causes a collapse. Multiple 9-A or even 9-B explosions in the right locations can cause structural collapse even in skyscrapers, of which this building was not. However much hit Alex is even less substantial considering his placement in the cutscene.

> An M1A1 tank is 57,000kg. Despite the fact he lifts this quite easily (and at the start of the game), musclemass doubles this, making it 104,000kg. Musclemass boost > musclemass.

His lifting strength was listed as this in every key originally, not just with musclemass. Everything ByAsura posted in response to this clears up much, though.

Although are you certain that's the model of tank Alex threw in the beginning of the game? Proof, if yes?

> The math was done here, 0.44 tons of tnt worth of durability at his distance from impact, or 1.84e9 joules.

So I've already talked about this in the thread. The calc is using the maximum speed of the vehicle Alex was in, however the timeframe is uses is flawed due to the number of cuts the cutscene makes that leaves out portions of the timeframe of him escaping. Meanwhile we have an objective speed and timeframe with how long it takes the fireball to reach Alex, which gives less error considering Cinematic Timing. I doubt it would increase the distance much, but when we're talking inverse-square small differences in distance can make big differences in potency.

That said, an 8-C attack reducing Alex to mush at the end of game 1 seems like really good proof for 9-A/9-A+ Alex. I'll concede it's probably not 9-B, but it's still a hilariously good anti-feat for anything above 9-A+, let alone 8-A.

> In the calc used above, the nuke results come from the on-screen in-game military nuclear projections, the picture is provided.

I'd perfer using the actual size of the explosion as it's depicted in the game as opposed to projections, personally. Projections are more fallible than what's presented on screen, in the cutscenes. We as a site also view feats as better than statements as a general rule of thumb.

> The thermobaric tank also 1-shots any of the bases or hives and I'm sure the calcs have been done for destroying those buildings. It couldn't bust a building that Greene's biomass covered, so Alex consuming her means he's at least multiple times stronger than that. If we agree to the building size then there is no reason why this shouldn't be used.

This is pretty misleading in regards that practically anything in the game can destroy bases or hives with sufficient time attacking them, as they are destructible structures in the game. Saying that the stuff Green's biomass-covered areas couldn't be destroyed with the same attacks doesn't really mean anything more than saying that a certain regular brick wall that's non-destructible is more durable than that building since it isn't harmed by those bombs in the game, or that a locked door is more durable because Alex can't break it in a level.

I'd also like to point out that much of these are nitpicky and don't really challenge much inside of the CRT in of itself - it actively admits that the anti-feat is valid against 8-A and only works to 'gotcha' that I underestimated how much of the nuke hit Alex. Much of the arguments presented here are on interpreting feats that are largely clouded by gameplay, outside of that.
 
Yes, probably by many times. I'm not sure we can just scale it linearly though. If we do, it's Building level (barely over a ton of TNT).
 
I'm not sure, there's far too many tendrils moving at different speeds around the city. Also, it's a devastator, meaning it should scale far, far above Heller's physicals.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Also do you think the tendrils at the end of Prototype 2 can be calculated for Mercer and Heller at their peak?
Click to expand...
They were already calced at Low 7B and considered an outlier
 
I'll comment for issues on the scene, but even if it's accepted it seems to be a massive outlier to any other feats they've shown.

Go here^ and read down
 
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