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Proposal: NieR Automata lasers&EMP should count as light speed.

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TheAngryOrange

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I was told if I thought the laser/EMP attack was light speed I would need to make a specific case for it. Here it is. I believe the lasers/EMP of NieR Automata should be considered light speed.


1) Naming convention:The game characters and cutscenes call them lasers. The official names and descriptions has stated these to be lasers. The official world guide also states they are lasers. The novelizations says these lasers. They are never referred by the slang of laser beam.

2) Origin: They always originate from some sort of mechanical/technological source. For the Pod program, in cutscene you can see the laser being fired out of a lens.

3) Speed: They move at the speed of light. A laser fired from a satellite in orbit around the moon reached earth in one second. In order for it to even start showing slower than light speed, it would need to be 84 million meters away from the moon since the moon is 384 million meters from earth. For reference, the Earth is 12 million meters in diameter so you'd need 7 Earths of distance.

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Nier Automata Laser Speed

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4) Matter Reactions to lasers: There is no physical impact from a laser hit. Only burns. It can only damage through heat. An object once got hit by a laser and took no damage because it was heat resistant.

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5) Composition: A continuation from 4. The laser has no physical mass. It cannot physically interact with the world to the point it passes through objects (something possible by waves on either end of the EM Spectrum). Many of these lasers are not single shot but fire a continuous beam and they still do this. And the world guide refers to those hit by the laser as 'irradiated' and lasers are a form of electromagnetic radiation. Even the ones that fall off of the visual spectrum.


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If gamma rays can travel through walls, and radio waves can travel through walls, and they are on opposite ends of the electromagnetic spectrum, then why can't light travel through walls which is right in the middle of the spectrum?

Ask the experts your physics and astronomy questions, read answer archive, and more.
www.physlink.com www.physlink.com

Laser Irradiation - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com www.sciencedirect.com


6) Diffraction. In another instance, a target was hit by an orbital laser but the laser was diffracted because of an electromagnetic barrier. Electromagnetic fields do not affect solid objects and the target was still being damaged by bullets, missiles, and mortars. EM waves, however, can interfere with other EM waves and even diffract them



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7) Additional Uses The lasers in this verse are not only used as weapons but also used for communication and data transmission with their headquarters near the moon.

www.nasa.gov

Optical Communications - NASA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDMM9MZNcco
www.nasa.gov www.nasa.gov

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8) Muzzle Velocity Hierarchy: Nearly all weapons that aren't melee weapons are in some way tied to something that is light speed or close to light speed. Along with lasers they also use EMP (which move at the speed of light) and particle beams (and particle accelerators fire near the speed of light). Even their bullets and missiles are propelled not by rocket engine but by particle beams which accelerates them to relativistic speeds. Lasers both in game and inverse have been regarded as faster but less damaging than their bullets which are already relativistic. The only weapons not directly associated with something near or at the speed of light are the enemy energy bullets (which have also been regarded as very slow) and rail guns which they use as mortars. (And mortars have a very low muzzle velocity compared to firearms).

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9) General Frame of time reference: A thousand year outdated machine was described using spare nanoseconds to contemplate philosophy. And this is just their thinking time and not their reaction time. Meaning their perception of time within light speed (FTL to relativistic)

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And below are a collection of laser images


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RzvIFJd.png


The lasers in question have energy coming off of them. Over 50% of the cited evidence is whether or not they are called lasers. They also generate explosions, if I remember correctly, which would be more than just "heat". Granted, I've not touched the game in ages.

In any case I suggest OP gather scans for the case, since at least part of the case is made tenuous at best by this image.

RLtE1Ya.png

For funsies I saw this image, too, which visibly shows some of the energy bits of the "laser" failing to move in a straight line, rather wavering in the air en route to the target.
 
Near the top of the second page. The material takes no damage because it is heat resistant.
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Whether or not it produces explosions depends on what you meant by 'explosion'. There is no AOE damage, fireball effect, nor pressure wave effect. There is a flash of yellow on impact as shown in the second image. But real world laser cutters and laser engravers produce identical flashes (though on a much smaller scale). Other than that flash, there is no explosion.



I acknowledge that the lasers do not look as lasers should but I would argue that is the game designing them to make them look cooler (in the same way their electromagnetic fields somehow have the ability to toss 300 lb androids through the air). Notice how, warble aside, they travel in straight lines. Meanwhile their bullets will curve to hit the target.

Only the first point relates to the naming convention. The rest deals with its behaviors. I want to focus on: Their lasers have no mass, cannot physically interact with objects and can only damage through heat, and can be refracted by intense electromagnetic fields (which has several explanations from the Schwinger limit, to the Compton Effect to simply the field affecting the area's refractive index) and a laser fired next to the moon had a calculated travel speed of light speed.
 
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Joking aside, those aren't really "identical flashes" at all, are they. In Nier, bits of the laser visibly move off of it in amorphous fashion, even en-route to the target. There, the sparks result from close impact with metal. Shockingly enough I have seen a laser cutter before. These aren't even remotely similar.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Joking aside, those aren't really "identical flashes" at all, are they. In Nier, bits of the laser visibly move off of it in amorphous fashion, even en-route to the target. There, the sparks result from close impact with metal. Shockingly enough I have seen a laser cutter before. These aren't even remotely similar.
Click to expand...
And what of the other points? Its inability to damage a wall because it was heat resistant. If there was mass then being heat resistant wouldn't do anything. Or that its speed can be calculated to be speed of light? Or that it is blocked by am EM field despite coming straight down from the sky. Or that it passes through solid objects? Even if it doesn't look the part, it behaves the part.

And even if we were to say it was made of particles with mass, that just points to particle beams which move near the speed of light and that speed is still supported by the calculation. Though it would then beg the question, they already have weapons they refer to as particle beams so why would they name some of their particle beams as such and the others as lasers.
 
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Not damaging the environment doesn't really do much for me in a game without a naturally destructible environment. Like I can swing at a wall for ages and not break it. I need to get someone more familiar with the methods used by you to work on your calc- frankly I find it suspect purely due to how cleanly it fits, since we've established the game rarely sticks to reality and yet your calc is one of the most 1:1 things I've ever seen. Shit rubs me the wrong way, but I don't have expertise in the department.

I mean. You act as though what you say is the only possible argument- there exist others. I dislike this.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Not damaging the environment doesn't really do much for me in a game without a naturally destructible environment. Like I can swing at a wall for ages and not break it.
Click to expand...

The lack of damage came from the novelization and covered events that took place before the game so the game mechanics not covering environmental destruction should not apply.

Mr._Bambu said:
I need to get someone more familiar with the methods used by you to work on your calc- frankly I find it suspect purely due to how cleanly it fits, since we've established the game rarely sticks to reality and yet your calc is one of the most 1:1 things I've ever seen. Shit rubs me the wrong way, but I don't have expertise in the department.
Click to expand...

Is there anyone you suggest I seek out?

Mr._Bambu said:
I mean. You act as though what you say is the only possible argument- there exist others. I dislike this.
Click to expand...
I apologize if I came off that way. I'll admit I felt that points were being ignored. But I am open to bouncing ideas around.
 
I was asked to comment here.

This seems very solid just from the evidence presented. I can't attest to the accuracy of the thread, though, as I'm not familiar with these games.

Onto the counterarguments, the wavering on the lasers could simply be explained as plasma, which can be produced by lasers and airy beams if memory serves. Although I don't believe they can be produced in open air under normal conditions.

I'm mostly bringing this up because they just look like straight beams with arcs surrounding them (hence the spaces). Some don't even look like they're connected to the main beam.

As for the explosion, couldn't it just be gameplay effects or interaction with technology?
 
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ByAsura said:
I was asked to comment here.

This seems very solid just from the evidence presented. I can't attest to the accuracy of the thread, though, as I'm not familiar with these games.

Onto the counterarguments, the wavering on the lasers could simply be explained as plasma, which can be produced by lasers and airy beams if memory serves. Although I don't believe they can be produced in open air under normal conditions.

I'm mostly bringing this up because they just look like straight beams with arcs surrounding them (hence the spaces). Some don't even look like they're connected to the main beam.

As for the explosion, couldn't it just be gameplay effects or interaction with technology?
Click to expand...
The lasers explode when you do hit something iirc.
 
As someone who loves looking at battleship-mounted lasers, like this, it does appear lasers often cause technology to explode.

Edit: Better view.
 
To address the bit about straight lines...
9N2Vrmw.png


TL;DR, not always, no. For reference, this is the optionally acquired laser pod. The "lasers" in this game have very little correlation to real life.
 
Oof. Yep, I see your point. That one certainly isn't a straight line.

Is the calculation in the OP applicable to any characters?
 
I don't think that laser scales to any character.

I guess we could argue that they are the same type of weapon attack, just on different magnitudes in power, so that they should have comparable speed?

We could go with that over the laser pod calcs.
 
Should I just close this thread for someone to do the scaling in another one?
 
I've some doubts about the calc but I'm waiting for a different CGM to take a look at it, due to my own presence in this discussion. However, since it isn't to do with the math for the calc, I would argue against scaling normal "lasers" to the speed of the most powerful ones in-verse, aye.
 
Right, the laser pod.
I've removed the straight line bit. But there are still the other points. I feel there are far more points in favor of it than opposed.

There are two laser attacks that have the squiggle effect to them, both of them being player attacks. The enemy laser attacks have the appearance in the videos. If squiggles comes into doubt then we could discount any of the squiggle attacks.

I've still been searching for another set of eyes for the laser speed since I do believe they should scale to one another. That being said the difference would have to be 84 million meters off before it starts making a change.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
The lasers explode when you do hit something iirc.
Click to expand...
It depends on what you mean by explode. They only ever produce sparks when you hit something. There's no fireball or shockwave effect and no AOE damage. Machine death animations are explosions so you can cause this with a sword attack.
 
Unfortunately, that's not how light rules work currently (much to a lot of people's chagrin). If even one of the more concrete rules are violated, we don't accept them being light.

But, that doesn't entirely rule out them being some other particle beam that's equal to or near (NieR) the speed of light.

Are they ever called optical weapons, for example?
 
ByAsura said:
Unfortunately, that's not how light rules work currently (much to a lot of people's chagrin). If even one of the more concrete rules are violated, we don't accept them being light.

But, that doesn't entirely rule out them being some other particle beam that's equal to or near (NieR) the speed of light.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. So if I can get confirmation that the light speed calculation is accurate, would that be enough to declare them light speed?
 
No, it'd need to be a light-speed calculation to get light-speed. And you'd need to confirm that laser's speed is consistent with all lasers in the series.
 
ByAsura said:
No, it'd need to be a light-speed calculation to get light-speed. And you'd need to confirm that laser's speed is consistent with all lasers in the series.
Click to expand...
The one being calculated could be tracked through the cutscene camera. If I can calculate its perceived speed and calculate the perceived speed of the other lasers in game, would that work?
 
ByAsura said:
No, it'd need to be a light-speed calculation to get light-speed. And you'd need to confirm that laser's speed is consistent with all lasers in the series.
Click to expand...
I've just whipped up a calc blog but all laser attacks reach their maximum range in one frame. Is that consistent enough? And do I still need to get the calculations approved?
 
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