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Project Zomboid Comprehensive CRT

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Mr. Bambu

Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
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The pages are pretty garbage right now. So, I'm going to offer a little CRT because I ******* adore this game (about 750 hours in at time of writing).

Let's start with the biggest offender, the Player.

The Player​

In no particular order, here are some issues.

  • "Limited Information Analysis (With the "nutritionist" trait the player is capable of seeing the nutritional values of a food item even those that arent packaged)" (Nothing implies that the trait actually offers any particular analytical abilities, rather just general knowledge of nutrition)
  • "Accelerated Development (Able to learn entire occupations in less than a month just by reading books/watching VHS tapes relating to the subject, things like electrician, mechanic, cooking, foraging, carpentry, metal working, etc, can all be learned in under a month)" (For the most part, the character achieves their skills within a reasonable timeframe for a human being; it takes a great deal of time and more or less round-the-clock learning to make any significant progress in a given profession, barring one of three things: past experience in said field (say, from being a carpenter before the apocalypse), a comprehensive guide book to quicken the rate at which you learn the skill, or a combination of the two. There really is zero evidence of "Accelerated Development", especially given that for many of these there are no particular feats for their skill in the profession beyond a standard professional- they make very basic structures at an acceptable level, that is all)
  • "Increased Agility (With the nimble/gymnast traits)" (These refer to the in-game "Nimble" stat, which literally just slightly increases your speed while carrying a weapon- nothing resembling acrobatics, parkour, etc is present within the game)
  • "Attack Potency:Street Level Every player should be around this level when they first start (Although a new player is capable of killing a Zed it takes multiple hit to eventually kill them even if the player is given a weapon; Capable of crushing Zed skulls rather easily usually even in just one hit) Likely Higher with firearms/explosive weaponry" (So as mentioned, new players can perform a 9-C feat via several attacks; crushing a skull with your boot, normally, takes some time. This is a minor thing, but I'd propose "At least 10-A, possibly 9-C" for this, and just assigning "Varies from 9-C to 9-B with Weapons", as their explosives are likely in this range- I can do a calc on this later, thinking on it)
  • "Lifting Strength: Peak Human (Should be superior to Zeds who are able to break down high security metal doors)" (Zeds do chip damage to break down doors and often cannot do it on their own against more durable doors, even given days to do so; I'd go so far as to say that zombies don't even damage the doors themselves, oftentimes, instead just knocking them off their hinges, as they are completely incapable of knocking down shutters on storefronts. However, the player can lift things such as french-door refridgerators, which are 136.08 kilos and represent the heaviest thing they can lift that I can think of)
  • "Standard Equipment: weaponry like: baseball bats, hatchets, a variety of handguns, rifles and shotguns" (This should just be expanded on significantly, there are a wealth of improvised weapons in the game, and this doesn't even touch on explosives)
  • "Stamina: Superhuman (Inferior to Zeds)" (This is horseshit, the player is practically narcoleptic and tires easily from strenuous activity. At best I'd place them at above average, arguably average.)
  • "Durability:Street level (Can tank scratches/lacerations from Zeds, they can also tank hits from relative players)" (Players possess no significant durability over a normal athletic human, and can die rather quickly from a single hit if it is in the right place, such as the neck. Bullet wounds are pretty much just game enders and falling from even a one-story height can be lethal depending on what you're carrying. Point is, drop this to 10-A)
  • "Weaknesses: Standard human weaknesses " (Technically you can indeed play the game with no weaknesses, however I think since we include their strengths and positive traits, we ought to at least list the potential negative traits here as optional)
  • As a side note, change Superhuman Physical Characteristics to Peak Human Physical Characteristics, as none of their traits are Superhuman.
That more or less covers my grievances with the Player's page.

The Zeds

First of all, I hate this name so much. I'd rather just call them Zombies, there's no reason to stylize the name in this specific fashion. Alternatively, while the community does prefer the term "Zombie", "Zomboids" is regularly used, too. Anywho.

  • They should receive Immortality (Type 2), as regardless of your wounds when you go down, the zombie resulting from you more or less functions the same. It is possible to render a zombie's legs unable to function but that's likely moreso a structural issue.
  • In doing this we can remove their Resistance to Pain/Fear, as pain would fall under Immortality (Type 2), and fear would fall under mind hax. As zombies lack minds, they are immune to such things- although haxes that work through mindlessness would still apply.
  • "Attack Potency:Street Level (Can heavily damage bullet proof vests which are capable of stopping most handgun rounds; Can significantly harm the player who is capable of crushing skulls which would require this much energy)" (As shown here, currently they still scale to crushing skulls; swap this out for the abstract feat of being able to bite directly through bulletproof vests, making them at least on-par with small handguns such as the M1911)
  • "Speed: Below Average Human (Normally Zeds can be easily outpaced a walking player), likely Average Human (When sprinters are enabled zeds are capable of keeping up with the player running at top speed, though are still slower than the player)" (I would just make this a "Varies from X to Y")
  • "Lifting Strength: Athletic Human, likely Peak Human (Are capable of dragging players down to the ground; the players are capable of carrying an antique oven which can weigh anywhere from 180 Kg to 360 Kg)" (Partially untrue, the drag down requires multiple zombies. A single zombie can knock a player down, but it normally is part of a lunging attack and is more of an unbalancing thing than actually pushing back their resistance, as said lunging attack is directed at the feet/lower legs. Given time to react, a player can shove zombies fairly easily; therefore, I'd just downscale them from the player)
  • "Durability:Street Level (Can tank attacks from players using handguns; Can occasionally survive getting hit by slower moving vehicles which would produce this much energy)" (While all of this is true, I'd also mention that zombies can tank attacks from larger weapons as well, just less consistently- M14s, M16s, and double-barrel shotguns are all more or less survivable for zombies in the base-game)
  • "Stamina: Superhuman" (Infinite. They don't need anything to survive. Matter of fact, they should have all forms of Self-Sustenance)
  • "Intelligence: Possibly High animalistic (although they only have very basic cognitive functions some zeds are capable of opening doors if they believe a player is inside, they are also capable of retaining memories of seeing the player and will follow them for an extended amount of time even if they are no longer in view, Zeds are also capable of playing dead as to trick the player)" (The usage of a door is not a feat for high animalistic, I would just leave them down at normal animalistic; zombies playing dead are not necessarily doing so as a means of tricking the player but may simply go inert occasionally, there isn't an explanation for it nor would Occam's Razor say that they must have intelligence when they otherwise show little penchant for it)
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head. @Mariogoods @PsychoWarper (yeah you get called to these now).

Important Update​

I did a calculation based on zombies being capable of ripping through military bulletproof vests. The result is just barely into Wall level. So, this CRT now begrudgingly proposes that both zombies and the player scale to Wall level via this calculation, with feats such as skull crushing serving as support.
 
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The proposal is generally good. Though I don't know the game much, I have some opinions regarding the proposal:

As the profile documents the peak of the Player, it should be noted that some of the custom weaknesses would affect some of the stats rating. For example, Unfit could affect the rating of Stamina.




"Stamina: Superhuman" (Infinite. They don't need anything to survive. Matter of fact, they should have all forms of Self-Sustenance)
Unfortunately, I have found a content from PZWiki which somewhat contradicts with this proposal.
As the game world experiences erosion, the zombies will also experience decay. Their bodies will eventually start to experience putrefaction and lose much of their body mass as time passes. This will also weaken and slightly reduce their speed. However, the zombies won't die from decomposition, the only way a zombie will completely rot away is from after they die. Not all zombies will experience decomposition at the same time as each-other.
From https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Zombie#Wounds_&_decomposition

While it is said that zombies won't die from decomposition, it is still a thing that zombies are not immune to that. Therefore, it seems that zombies are not perfect enough to have Self-Substance. Also, it seems that zombies are not having Infinite stamina (at least Energy exertion).



"Durability: Street Level (Can tank attacks from players using handguns; Can occasionally survive getting hit by slower moving vehicles which would produce this much energy)" (While all of this is true, I'd also mention that zombies can tank attacks from larger weapons as well, just less consistently- M14s, M16s, and double-barrel shotguns are all more or less survivable for zombies in the base-game)
For zombies' survival of stronger weapons, it is more of a stamina feat (Pain tolerance and Injury tolerance).



And I currently agree with the rest of them.

By the way, https://pzwiki.net is a useful source.
 
As the game world experiences erosion, the zombies will also experience decay. Their bodies will eventually start to experience putrefaction and lose much of their body mass as time passes. This will also weaken and slightly reduce their speed. However, the zombies won't die from decomposition, the only way a zombie will completely rot away is from after they die. Not all zombies will experience decomposition at the same time as each-other.
Even if we did take rotting away as an indication of lack of stamina (I personally wouldn't), that even directly states that they don't ever die as a result of their rotting. They will remain functioning indefinitely. They just don't remain at peak performance- and it is not even necessarily due to a lack of sustenance, rather just the standard process of rotting.

For zombies' survival of stronger weapons, it is more of a stamina feat (Pain tolerance and Injury tolerance).
This sort of argument could be used on literally all of the weapons. It's entirely arbitrary to say that they survive handgun wounds by pure durability and then, upgrading to a standard hunting rifle, to then say it's purely due to their undead nature.

I'm aware of the PZWiki, I used it a lot back when I was getting into the game. It's wonderful.
 
It's entirely arbitrary to say that they survive handgun wounds by pure durability and then, upgrading to a standard hunting rifle, to then say it's purely due to their undead nature.
That's the point.
Even if we did take rotting away as an indication of lack of stamina (I personally wouldn't), that even directly states that they don't ever die as a result of their rotting. They will remain functioning indefinitely. They just don't remain at peak performance- and it is not even necessarily due to a lack of sustenance, rather just the standard process of rotting.
It seems not bad, though caution may be needed when giving infinite rating.
 
Suffice to say I disagree with the arbitrary standard, then. They can scale to 9-C larger firearms.

Caution, yes, but proper caution was given here. They have infinite stamina. They can continue to act forever and never stop.
 
Suffice to say I disagree with the arbitrary standard, then. They can scale to 9-C larger firearms.

Caution, yes, but proper caution was given here. They have infinite stamina. They can continue to act forever and never stop.
It seems fine to me.
 
I agree with this, though another staff's signing off is needed as usual. Also, King Dom470's profile has format problems.
 
Let it be known that I hesitated before calling someone here via admin abuse.

@Qawsedf234 @Abstractions This is pretty simple stuff, wouldja mind?
 
I did a calculation based on zombies being capable of ripping through military bulletproof vests. The result is just barely into Wall level. So, this CRT now begrudgingly proposes that both zombies and the player scale to Wall level via this calculation, with feats such as skull crushing serving as support.
Well tbf, if they're ripping something with a swipe then the tearing motion would only be street level. Since they're just doing enough to tear the fabric that their hands can get through. The calc is assuming they hit the area and everything in it is destroyed at once, rather than as some continuous action.

Otherwise, I agree with all of the changes. Especially for the skills stuff since the PC doesn't do anything extreme with their crafting skills like the PC from Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead does.
 
Well tbf, if they're ripping something with a swipe then the tearing motion would only be street level. Since they're just doing enough to tear the fabric that their hands can get through. The calc is assuming they hit the area and everything in it is destroyed at once, rather than as some continuous action.

Otherwise, I agree with all of the changes. Especially for the skills stuff since the PC doesn't do anything extreme with their crafting skills like the PC from Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead does.
Namedropping the game Zomboid is inspired from, I see.

Tbf, as mentioned in the calc itself, there's much to the attack animations that we can't know because of how simple they are. Maybe an "At least 9-C, possibly 9-B"?
 
Fair enough. With that jotted down, is the rest of the CRT acceptable?
 
Hey uh I'm fine with 9-C AP for the zeds but striking strength should most definitely be 10-C, the poor chaps take multiple hits to break a regular glass window. Can't link a video right now (thanks mobile!) but if you've played the game, which you guys certainly seem to have, you can probably confirm this. Plus every time they attack the player they're using their claws or teeth since they always leave either scratches, lacerations, or bites, so 10-C physically but 9-C via piercing damage.

Also, I see that the profile references sprinters for the speed rating but these fellas are entirely non-canonical and exist pretty much as an alternative game mode for people who have mastered the base game with slow zeds. Again, can't provide proof until I get my hands on a PC, but Sprinters can only be activated in the "Custom Sandbox" gamemode by changing the "Zombie lore" settings. Furthermore, when the zombies have all the default settings, the game calls them "proper zombies", implying that's the canon form of the zeds and everything else is a non-canon deviation. This also applies to the "zeds can open doors" thing, it's a sandbox mode only setting and because it's not canon their intelligence rating would drop to like, low animalistic since all they do is chase you and gather in groups.
 
The glass window is almost certainly game mechanics given they're also damaging car parts and such.

...how are sprinters non-canon? The game doesn't have much of a plot, and I don't think anything that does exist invalidates the existence of sprinters outright. The custom sandbox thing isn't a concrete argument imo, until the game expands more on lore I think leaving sprinters in is fine.
 
Wall level feels kinda weird for a verse that tries to offer a realistic experience.

Also crushing Zombie skulls by stomping them with their foot several times against the ground, while an impressive feat, I don't think is a particularly superhuman feat...
 
YES THANK YOU. I was going to talk about this later, but i seriously believe that the skull crushing "feat" is complete bull. Let me explain.

First off, when you kill a zombie by stomping on their head, the zombie's skull is still clearly visible and doesn't seem crushed at all in the death sprite.

Second, you know how zombies can supposedly "play dead"? It's more like they aren't really dead and spring back to life when the player comes close.

See here:

And when they come back to life, guess what, the skull is still there and seemingly in mint condition. And given the setting of the game and its inspirations (that being classic zombie media like Night of the Living Dead), I seriously doubt that the zombies can regenerate crushed skulls or that some arcane magic is reviving them. All things considered it's probably just that the player isn't crushing the zombie's skull and more like they're just stomping on it until it'd be enough to kill a normal human or cause a concussion or something. Point is, they're most definitely not crushing the skull.
 
...how are sprinters non-canon?
If you play on any of the default game modes they will never appear. They're are exclusive to the Custom Sandbox mode where you can also tamper with a bunch of other shit too, like making 1993 Kentucky's weather freezing cold or Sahara desert level hot, changing the skill points that you get at the start of the level, which allows you to take every single positive trait while having no negative ones, or changing the time that services such as water or electricity stops working to like, 8 months after the apocalypse started.

If we count sprinters as canon, then we have to consider all of this other ridiculous stuff canon too because they're accessible through the Sandbox gamemode as well.
 
No, I'm aware of that, but that's not really the same as "non-canon". I don't think you can claim canocity based solely on what sandbox settings are or are not turned on by default, at least not until the game is fully released, as a good few of them switch back and forth (multi-hit being no longer the standard is an example of this). Not to mention that different game modes have different game settings.

So yeah I just disagree, sprinters are fine. If you have any other suggestions for things that ought to be taken into account, by all means, but I don't think there's anything else of note. Nothing comes to mind, at least.
 
The game is fully released though? It's getting updates, is all. And I certainly think we can call the default settings canon when the game itself calls said zombies "proper".
 
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No it is not.
 
Regardless, because this has received a decent amount of replies, I'm gonna put through everything that has been accepted- Joaco, if it is your intention to stake your case further, you may do so in another CRT. I disagree still, of course, but you're free to an opinion.

Locking this'n down.
 
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