Pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks scaling issue

[Eseseso]

So on Gotenk's profile, his pre-RoSaT SSJ is said to be above SSJ3 because of the Daizenshuu saying that he, quote, "surpassed the power of Vegeta and the others".

However, as @Gilad_Hyperstar pointed out in another thread:

"It doesn't include Goku because he was dead, This is why it was said VEGETA and the others and not GOKU and the others, since it's pretty obvious that SSJ3 Gotenks surpassed Vegeta, so if they wanted to include Goku as the prime example of who Gotenks surpassed, they would've mentioned him instead of Vegeta"

This is a pretty solid point, so it seems like pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks is actually not (confirmed to be) above SSJ3 Goku, although they are probably comparable to each other since they are both above Fat Buu.

But here then comes the problem, and the reason I'm kinda hoping this gets proven wrong:

Base pre-RoSaT Gotenks is above SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, who is equal to SSJ2 Goku.

So if SSJ3 Goku and pre-RoSAT SSJ Gotenks are now comparable, then since pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks is 50x Base pre-RoSaT Gotenks, guess what the SSJ3 multiplier over SSJ2 is?

And this is a HUGE problem, since the story doesn't seem to portray SSJ3 as a double-digit multiplier above SSJ2.

Yes, SSJ3 Goku stomped Fat Buu (who stomped SSJ2 Vegeta) and matched Kid Buu, who himself stomped Fat Buu and SSJ2 Vegeta.

However, Fat Buu still held his own somewhat against SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu, while in both cases SSJ2 Vegeta could at least somewhat hold his own.

See the problem?

In short, with the debunking of Gotenks being above SSJ3 Goku pre-RoSAT (and likely just comparable), this makes sense statement-wise, not so much storywise.


Please don't kill me for this.

Thoughts?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Kid Buu toyed with Vegeta while he used SSJ2. All Vegeta did was to try and delay Buu to let Goku complete his Spirit Bomb, and he didn't really do any damage to Buu

Goku was going easy on both Fat Buu and Kid Buu as SSJ3 drains stamina very quickly. Goku even stated that if he went all out on Kid Buu during their fight, Goku would've won

 

[XVII]

so you saying base gotenks = ssj2
and ssj gotenks = ssj3 ????

 

[Eseseso]

so you saying base gotenks = ssj2
and ssj gotenks = ssj3 ????

That's what Gilad Hyperstar and some others proposed to me in another thread.

I'm just asking what people think of this.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I didn't said directly that SSJ3 Goku = SSJ Gotenks, but Goku should scale given both of them scale to being above Innocent Buu, as well as SSJ Gotenks being able to give Buu a good fight like Goku did

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I didn't said directly that SSJ3 Goku = SSJ Gotenks, but Goku should scale given both of them scale to being above Innocent Buu, as well as SSJ Gotenks being able to give Buu a good fight like Goku did

But that would have to mean that SSJ3 is a 50× Multiplier over SSJ2 for him to scale to Gotenks like that. That's never gonna be accepted when we don't even accept SSJ3 being just a 4× Multiplier with an official guidebook.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

But that would have to mean that SSJ3 is a 50× Multiplier over SSJ2 for him to scale to Gotenks like that. That's never gonna be accepted when we don't even accept SSJ3 being just a 4× Multiplier with an official guidebook.

Feats from the series > Guidebook

The reason why SSJ's multiplier was accepted is because of feats. We know that: SSJ2 Vegeta = SSJ2 Goku < Base Gotenks, but also that SSJ Gotenks would give Fat Buu a good fight on the level SSJ3 Goku gave to him. So this is doesn't come out of nowhere

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Why does SSJ3 Goku compare to Gotenks at all?
Base gotenks is > SSJ2 Goku.
SSJ3 Goku > Buu >>> SSJ2 Goku
SSJ Gotenks = 50x base gotenks > SSJ2 Goku.
There is nothing at all that compares Gotenks and Goku so Goku shouldn't scale to SSJ Gotenks and SSJ Gotenks would scale 50x above his value but unquantifiably less.
Gotenks was confident he could fold buu so like I said there is nothing to scale Goku to gotenks.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

SSJ Gotenks was stated to give Buu a good fight, as well as SSJ3 Goku, which likely means they don't seem to be that far apart from each other (and from Fat Buu)

Piccolo was also absolutely shocked by SSJ3 Goku's power, but the same didn't happened when Gotenks first turned into a SSJ. If Gotenks would be in a completely different league compared to SSJ3 Goku, Piccolo would be even more shocked to sense Gotenks' power than he was when Goku first transformed, but he wasn't. He said that Gotenks' power is impressive, but he said that he shall see what he could do against Buu

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

SSJ Gotenks was stated to give Buu a good fight, as well as SSJ3 Goku, which likely means they don't seem to be that far apart from each other (and from Fat Buu)

Piccolo was also absolutely shocked by SSJ3 Goku's power, but the same didn't happened when Gotenks first turned into a SSJ. If Gotenks would be in a completely different league compared to SSJ3 Goku, Piccolo would be even more shocked to sense Gotenks' power than he was when Goku first transformed, but he wasn't. He said that Gotenks' power is impressive, but he said that he shall see what he could do against Buu

Can you show me scans for both?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Sure.

Piccolo being shocked at Goku's power when he first transforms into SSJ3.

Goku tells Buu to wait for someone strong that will give him a fun challenge

Piccolo is impressed by SSJ Gotenks' power, but was not shocked by his power as SSJ

 

[Eseseso]

Honestly, while it would be horrific for scaling, SSJ3 being a 50x multiplier would be a much better explanation for why Goku would risk all that power drain.

I mean, 4x multiplier is impressive, but is it really worth the horrific power drain it always seems to have?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Sure.

Piccolo being shocked at Goku's power when he first transforms into SSJ3.

Goku tells Buu to wait for someone strong that will give him a fun challenge

Piccolo is impressed by SSJ Gotenks' power, but was not shocked by his power as SSJ

When was gotenks stated to give buu a good fight?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

When was gotenks stated to give buu a good fight?

Goku said it that the opponent he wants Buu to face (Gotenks) would be a fun fight for Buu. He even said "Too bad, it would've been fun for Buu"

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Goku said it that the opponent he wants Buu to face (Gotenks) would be a fun fight for Buu. He even said "Too bad, it would've been fun for Buu"

Goku has no idea how strong gotenks is so that statement is worthless. The second is better but it doesn't seem concrete, we'd scale Goku to gotenks with it, but I'm not sure.
I'm neutral, ask for more input. I suggest mdjdjh and asura.

 

[Eseseso]

The "fun" statement isn't valid for the reason Fluffy gave, but the Piccolo thing seems valid.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

There's still Piccolo's statement to support it, and despite knowing both SSJ3 Goku's power and Buu's power, Piccolo still said that "they'll see" what SSJ Gotenks can do against Buu. And if he'd be that much stronger than Goku, then Piccolo would be shocked at Gotenks' full power as SSJ3, even more so then when Goku transformed

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well to look at everything we have the following

• SS2 Vegeta < SS2 Goku
• Majin Vegeta = SS2 Goku
• Fat Buu is casually above Majin Vegeta
• Goku needed to go SS3 to fight Majin Buu and stated he had the power to beat him and Kid Buu
• Base Gotenks is inferior to Majin Buu as Super Buu later brings up

Now lets look at the Daizenshuu quote

Gotenks

A character formed by Goten and Trunks merging through Fusion

History: In order to defeat Majin Buu, who boasted absolute strength, Goku taught Fusion to Goten and Trunks as a last resort, and thus Gotenks was born. After several failures, they finally succeeded in merging together. The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

So the Daizenshuu states that Gotenks was only superior to Vegeta after training in the RoSaT.

Overall what I'm seeing is the following

• Pre-Training only SS1 Gotenks could defeat Majin Buu (going by Piccolo's estimation), his base form was notably inferior
• They only surpassed Vegeta in their base form after training in the RoSaT

The main issue imo is that like... Piccolo wrong about literally every single one of his estimations of Majin Buu's power level. Like its hilarious of how consistently incorrect he is.

But I think Goku believing in them would be good enough, combined with Piccolo's knowledge of what Fat Buu can do.

 

[Eseseso]

Well to look at everything we have the following

• SS2 Vegeta < SS2 Goku
• Majin Vegeta = SS2 Goku
• Fat Buu is casually above Majin Vegeta
• Goku needed to go SS3 to fight Majin Buu and stated he had the power to beat him and Kid Buu
• Base Gotenks is inferior to Majin Buu as Super Buu later brings up

Now lets look at the Daizenshuu quote

So the Daizenshuu states that Gotenks was only superior to Vegeta after training in the RoSaT.

Overall what I'm seeing is the following

• Pre-Training only SS1 Gotenks could defeat Majin Buu (going by Piccolo's estimation), his base form was notably inferior
• They only surpassed Vegeta in their base form after training in the RoSaT

The main issue imo is that like... Piccolo wrong about literally every single one of his estimations of Majin Buu's power level. Like its hilarious of how consistently incorrect he is.

But I think Goku believing in them would be good enough, combined with Piccolo's knowledge of what Fat Buu can do.

Not to mention Piccolo's knowledge of SSJ3 Goku and being shocked by that and not being shocked by SSJ Gotenks pre-RoSaT.

But this brings up the question of SSJ3 possibly having a >=50x multiplier.

Because for DBS characters that scale to SSJB levels of speed, that could be important.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But this brings up the question of SSJ3 possibly having a >=50x multiplier.

Any multiplier above SS1 just doesn't work with our ratings. The gaps are far to enormous and there's really no way to quantify it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Any multiplier above SS1 just doesn't work with our ratings. The gaps are far to enormous and there's really no way to quantify it.

Goku also believed that Gotenks could beat Fat Buu with SSJ.

Piccolo was right that Base Gotenks stood no chance against Majin Buu, and while he may have been wrong to judge how strong Buu really is, it still doesn't change the fact that SSJ3 Goku's power shocked him (alongside everyone else), and SSJ Gotenks' power didn't, as while Piccolo said it was impressive, if it SSJ Gotenks would be so overwhelmingly more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, then Piccolo and the rest would be shocked even more by his power, and they evidently weren't

Besides, SSJ3 was in-story pretty much shown to be overwhelmingly stronger than SSJ or SSJ2, as seen with Goku's battle against Buu. The downside of it is that that it's hard to maintain stamina with this

 

[Qawsedf234]

I agree that SS1 Gotenks ~ SS3 Goku.

I was just adding that base Gotenks isn't > SS2 Vegeta until after the RoSaT.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree that SS1 Gotenks ~ SS3 Goku.

I was just adding that base Gotenks isn't > SS2 Vegeta until after the RoSaT.

Why though? Gotenks was stated to surpass Vegeta and the others upon first fusing in the guide. Besides, he took beating from Majin Buu better than Majin Vegeta, as Vegeta was killed in his battle against Buu, while Gotenks survived the fight and managed to escape. Also, both Goten and Trunks were farmiliar with Majin Vegeta's power, but still thought that despite Vegeta standing no chance against Buu, they could beat him, even when they knew Vegeta can't. Even though they were wrong and got beaten, it still supports the statement of Base Gotenks being > Majin Vegeta

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with Gilad, since Gotenks's profile literally says in AP for his pre-RoSaT base that, quote:

"Both he and Krillin believed he can beat Innocent Buu despite knowing Majin Vegeta couldn't[1],"

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why though?

Because there's no evidence for it and the Daizenshuu quite literally contradicts the idea.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Both he and Krillin believed he can beat Innocent Buu despite knowing Majin Vegeta couldn't

They were literally wrong and Gotenks failed.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

They were literally wrong and Gotenks failed.

That's not the point. The point is that they thought he stood a little chance despite knowing Goku and vegeta stood no chance at all.
He also fought buu and managed to survive. Something vegeta wasn't able to do.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The point is that they thought he stood a little chance despite knowing Goku and vegeta stood no chance at all.

And they were incorrect. You can't base a rating off a claim that was demonstrably proven as untrue.

He also fought buu and managed to survive

Off screen and without context. There's a variety of ways he could live without being stronger than Vegeta.

The Daizenshuu outright states they didn't obtain superior power until after they trained in the RoSaT. Meaning before the training they weren't better than Vegeta without a transformation.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

And they were incorrect. You can't base a rating off a claim that was demonstrably proven as untrue.


Off screen and without context. There's a variety of ways he could live without being stronger than Vegeta.

The Daizenshuu outright states they didn't obtain superior power until after they trained in the RoSaT. Meaning before the training they weren't better than Vegeta without a transformation.

What is untrue? The statement is he "might have a chance" with doubt. Him losing does not contradict it. Him surviving supports this statement.
Ways such as? Without using head canon, the default assumption is that he's strong enough to survive given his confidence and krillins statement.
What makes you think that's refering to his base? The statement could very well be refering to SSJ3. The statement would also include Goku considering that even SSJ Gotenks was probably rivaling him even before training.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What is untrue?

Krillin is just wrong and Gotenks is an unreliable narrator who constantly overhypes himself. Piccolo outright said he wasn't strong enough for Majin Buu and he was the only one of the three to have his outcome backed by the manga.

Without using head canon, the default assumption is that he's strong enough to survive given his confidence and krillins statement.

Something noted earlier about SS2 Vegeta with his Kid Buu fight and something dismissed for reasons outlined earlier

Kid Buu toyed with Vegeta while he used SSJ2. All Vegeta did was to try and delay Buu to let Goku complete his Spirit Bomb, and he didn't really do any damage to Buu

Majin Buu messes around heavily when he fights for the most part. Gotenks doesn't need to be comparable to Majin Buu to not be killed by him. Remember, this version of Majin Buu cannot sense energy and its why it was notable when Super Buu gained that power. Gotenks just needs to break line of site to escape as long as Majin Buu doesn't immediately find him, like what Goku did with Frieza.

What makes you think that's refering to his base?

Because that's all it could be referring to. Goku and Piccolo were confident that SS1 Gotenks could beat Majin Buu and his base form was shown to have lost rather definitively to Fat Buu. After training Piccolo also stated outright that his power had grown considerably which goes with the Daizenshuu statement.

 

[XVII]

if im being honest

ss3 having a 50x multiplier sounds just fair tbh
like, ss2 being 50x is iffy because that would mean that cell got over 50x stronger just by having a zenkai

but ss3 is definitely 50x

so we could scale stuff like
X in base, 50X with SSJ, higher with SSJ2, at least 2500X with SSJ3

so yeah there's that

 

[XVII]

if im being honest

ss3 having a 50x multiplier sounds just fair tbh
like, ss2 being 50x is iffy because that would mean that cell got over 50x stronger just by having a zenkai

but ss3 is definitely 50x

so we could scale stuff like
X in base, 50X with SSJ, higher with SSJ2, at least 2500X with SSJ3

so yeah there's that

because if we accept this then

base gotenks - ssj2
ssj gotenks - ssj3

so yeah i believe it's completely fair and we should also add this multiplier to dbz's profiles (tho we might need to do a crt first)

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Krillin is just wrong and Gotenks is an unreliable narrator who constantly overhypes himself. Piccolo outright said he wasn't strong enough for Majin Buu and he was the only one of the three to have his outcome backed by the manga.

Something noted earlier about SS2 Vegeta with his Kid Buu fight and something dismissed for reasons outlined earlier

Majin Buu messes around heavily when he fights for the most part. Gotenks doesn't need to be comparable to Majin Buu to not be killed by him. Remember, this version of Majin Buu cannot sense energy and its why it was notable when Super Buu gained that power. Gotenks just needs to break line of site to escape as long as Majin Buu doesn't immediately find him, like what Goku did with Frieza.

Because that's all it could be referring to. Goku and Piccolo were confident that SS1 Gotenks could beat Majin Buu and his base form was shown to have lost rather definitively to Fat Buu. After training Piccolo also stated outright that his power had grown considerably which goes with the Daizenshuu statement.

Okay fair, do whatever you want. We can downscale gotenks 50x from solar system level (gohans value which would still be Solar System level).

 

[XVII]

Okay fair, do whatever you want. We can downscale gotenks 50x from solar system level (gohans value which would still be Solar System level).

hey fluffy i know this might seem off topic but do you agree with this?

ss3 having a 50x multiplier sounds just fair tbh
like, ss2 being 50x is iffy because that would mean that cell got over 50x stronger just by having a zenkai

but ss3 is definitely 50x

so we could scale stuff like
X in base, 50X with SSJ, higher with SSJ2, at least 2500X with SSJ3

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

hey fluffy i know this might seem off topic but do you agree with this?

We can't extrapolate multipliers using scaling like that. However ignoring wiki rules, SSJ3 is implied to be a far larger amp than both SSJ and SSJ2 so the logic is there. There is no official multiplier however so speculation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm fine with making him just 50x lower than SS3 Goku in his base form.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

While this is true, there are still the other Z Fighters such as Krillin saying he may have a chance (even though he lost), even when knowing Majin Vegeta or SSJ2 Goku stand no chance against Buu. Gotenks also manages to survive the fight against Majin Buu, and even though it was only in the anime, Gotenks lasted longer against Buu than Vegeta

Buu's blast alone seriously damaged Majin Vegeta and almost killed him, but Gotenks only came with bruises despite suffering the same hits from Buu as Vegeta did before

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I know it's been a while since this thread was created, but I'd have to agree with @Qawsedf234 on this. First of all, Buu's energy has been stated by Toriyama to be very odd and difficult to read, which makes it hard to tell how strong he really is. Because of that, I'd take the statements made by Krillin and Gotenks about his base power with a grain of salt. Piccolo believed base Gotenks wasn't strong enough to beat Innocent Buu, and if I'm gonna choose whose words to believe, I'll choose Piccolo. Unlike Krillin, Piccolo has been shown several times to be capable of reading when something's going wrong with a fight or if an opponent isn't powerful enough. He could tell that Vegeta still wasn't strong enough to defeat final form Frieza after his Zenkai even though Krillin believed Vegeta was putting Frieza on his heels. He could sense that something was wrong with Goku when he was fighting Android 19 and that his technique was sloppy, while Krillin believed Goku was mopping the floor with Android 19. So because of that, I think the justification for base Gotenks on his profile should be removed. Just because base Gotenks managed to survive a beatdown from Innocent Buu does not imply at all that he's somehow stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. The manga skipped that fight entirely (which is kinda weird), but the anime showed Gotenks getting clobbered easily once Buu got slightly more serious. If anything, the anime showed that Innocent Buu took base Gotenks even less seriously than Majin Vegeta, and it took far less time for Innocent Buu to defeat base Gotenks than it did Majin Vegeta. Point is that justification should be removed.

The same goes for the Super Saiyan justification part. I read the manga, but no character ever said that Super Saiyan Gotenks was stronger than Innocent Buu. That justification is being taken from the anime narrator, but Gotenks' profile should be manga exclusive. The only proof we have of this is Gotenks saying that, but Gotenks is an arrogant kid with an unbelievably inflated ego, so I wouldn't say his power truly surpassed Innocent Buu prior to the extra training.

And again, the justification for base Gotenks post-ROSAT training being strong enough to fight Super Buu is stupid. Though Piccolo did indeed consider that base Gotenks could be strong enough to beat Super Buu without transforming, base Gotenks is utterly incapable of landing any effective blows or damaging Super Buu whatsoever, and Piccolo internally notes that maybe Gotenks doesn't stand a chance. I'm honestly baffled that justification was added. All the other stuff is fine.

 

[Damage3245]

This is a big necro.