Power Cores: Blue Speed, Yellow Flight, and Questionnable Exponentials

[Peptocoptr27]

I have two things that seem like oversights to point out regarding how we currently treat power cores on this site

1: Unsupported exponential boosts that go against the multiplier page. I have no problem with individual power cores being regarded as a 2× multiplier. Where I fail to see the logic is that being equipped with 3 power cores should result an 8× multiplier. The logic behind this being that 2×2×2=8. Problem is, we have no evidence to suggest that power cores multiply the power granted by other power cores already equipped. As such, the 2× multipliers should be added to the result rather than multiplied. Not only is this much more reasonable, but it also alligns a lot better with rules on the multiplier page. This would result in (2×base stats) × 3 = 6 times multiplier. Not a huge difference, but enough to make non-power core amped characters keeping with those with 3 power cores more logical.

2: Not all characters get power boosts from thier respective power cores. Just as many get speed boost and "fly" boosts (whatever that means). This IDW scan specifically says the RED power cores can double Zavok's strenght, but he also displays the blue and yellow cores on his monitor, which should logically double speed and flight respectively. The question only remains of what enhanced flight actually entails in this context. Is it flight speed, skill/maneuverabillity, or stamina? I'll leave that up to you guys. There are almost certainly clues in Sonic Heroes that I'm not aware of.

Conclusion:
-Power core multipliers no longer stack exponentially. Characters with 3 red power cores are 6× stronger than without

-Those with 3 blue power cores are 6× faster

-Those with 3 yellow power cores are either 6× faster in thier flight, have 6× better stamina, or 6× better maneuverabillity

Since Shadow is stronger and faster than his Heroes self (with 3 blue power cores) by the time of his self titled game, and is comparable in strenght and speed to Knuckles, Vector, and Omega (who previously held 3 red power cores), he should scale to all of these power core multipliers, making him, and those comparable, 6× stronger and 6× faster than the Heroes base cast.

 

[omegabronic]

I have two things that seem like oversights to point out regarding how we currently treat power cores on this site

1: Unsupported exponential boosts that go against the multiplier page. I have no problem with individual power cores being regarded as a 2× multiplier. Where I fail to see the logic is that being equipped with 3 power cores should result an 8× multiplier. The logic behind this being that 2×2×2=8. Problem is, we have no evidence to suggest that power cores multiply the power granted by other power cores already equipped. As such, the 2× multipliers should be added to the result rather than multiplied. Not only is this much more reasonable, but it also alligns a lot better with rules on the multiplier page. This would result in (2×base stats) × 3 = 6 times multiplier. Not a huge difference, but enough to make non-power core amped characters keeping with those with 3 power cores more logical.

it is basic logic tho, this grants a 2x multiplier on its own, then you equip another one, getting another 2x boost, then you equip another one, then gaining another 2x boost, the power of the individual is multiplied, it just so happens that the power of said individual is already that high when equiped with 1 power core, the multiplier pages agrees with this even in the section you are quoting even:

If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case.

both multipliers are applied at once, then doubling 2 times, one for each multiplier, making it a 4 times multiplier, then we multiply this value that is already 4 times higher than the base and we get an 8x greater value than base, this is a multiplier, what you described is an addition, not a multiplier

in example: x*2=2x*2=4x*2=8x, the value being multiplied gets higher with each added multiplier, hence why stacking one on top of the other results in the results that high

plus 6 vs 8 is so neligiable that saying that 6 is "more reasonable" is not really being honest when both multipliers are like 1.3x appart from one another

2: Not all characters get power boosts from thier respective power cores. Just as many get speed boost and "fly" boosts (whatever that means). This IDW scan specifically says the RED power cores can double Zavok's strenght, but he also displays the blue and yellow cores on his monitor, which should logically double speed and flight respectively. The question only remains of what enhanced flight actually entails in this context. Is it flight speed, skill/maneuverabillity, or stamina? I'll leave that up to you guys. There are almost certainly clues in Sonic Heroes that I'm not aware of.

agree on the multiplier for other power cores as well

Conclusion:
-Power core multipliers no longer stack exponentially. Characters with 3 red power cores are 6× stronger than without

-Those with 3 blue power cores are 6× faster

-Those with 3 yellow power cores are either 6× faster in thier flight, have 6× better stamina, or 6× better maneuverabillity

Since Shadow is stronger and faster than his Heroes self (with 3 blue power cores) by the time of his self titled game, and is comparable in strenght and speed to Knuckles, Vector, and Omega (who previously held 3 red power cores), he should scale to all of these power core multipliers, making him, and those comparable, 6× stronger and 6× faster than the Heroes base cast.

Disagree on the downgrade for the multiplier, the very nature of the multipliers would make it stay as it is, as the power being multiplied is already that high by the time the second multiplier is applied, as the multiplier page, and basic logic, makes it clear

 

[ShakeResounding]

Problem with Point 2, their respective Core Types increase their damage output within Sonic Heroes as well. So they're all getting an AP increase, regardless of whether or not it's specifically the Red Cores.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well no, I don't see why it'd be base stats x 2 x 3. Each Power Core doubles the holder's power. So it doubles it three times, resulting in 2 x 2 x 2 = 8

 

[Eseseso]

Disagree with OP for the above reasoning

 

[Theuser789]

Problem with Point 2, their respective Core Types increase their damage output within Sonic Heroes as well. So they're all getting an AP increase, regardless of whether or not it's specifically the Red Cores.

I agree with Shake here

 

[Peptocoptr27]

it is basic logic tho, this grants a 2x multiplier on its own, then you equip another one, getting another 2x boost, then you equip another one, then gaining another 2x boost, the power of the individual is multiplied,

Yeah, the power of the individual is multiplied. Nothing suggests the individual AND the power core they already carry is multiplied in power.

it just so happens that the power of said individual is already that high when equiped with 1 power core, the multiplier pages agrees with this even in the section you are quoting even:

You said the quiet part out loud when it comes to which part of the quote you chose to highlight. Here's the quote again:

"If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case."

What it says is that the evidence necessary for such exponential multipliers to be valid is equal to the evidence necessary for the total output of the stacked multipliers. In Sonic Heroes' case, the fact that the bosses can keep up with the characters regardless of how many power cores they have is counter-evidence to the notion that they stack to each other. You may think a 6x multiplier is a negligeable difference from an 8x multiplier, but as you can see here, all it takes to contradict a multiplier as small as 10x is for that character to be able to keep up with another with or without the multiplier. A multiplier of 7 times is also too high for it to valid in such a context, so 6x is the absolute max.

both multipliers are applied at once, then doubling 2 times, one for each multiplier, making it a 4 times multiplier, then we multiply this value that is already 4 times higher than the base and we get an 8x greater value than base, this is a multiplier, what you described is an addition, not a multiplier

in example: x*2=2x*2=4x*2=8x, the value being multiplied gets higher with each added multiplier, hence why stacking one on top of the other results in the results that high

Like I said, I understand the logic behind it. What I'm proposing is still a multiplier of the character's base strenght, without going into territory which is unsupported, if not contradicted by the available evidence.

plus 6 vs 8 is so neligiable that saying that 6 is "more reasonable" is not really being honest when both multipliers are like 1.3x appart from one another

When that same exponential increase is applied to a massively upscaled extent to users of the Chaos Emeralds, who can and have carried up to 7 of them, those stacked multipliers suddenly make a pretty enormous difference, don't you think?

agree on the multiplier for other power cores as well

To be clear, you think blue cores double speed, red cores double strenght, and yellow cores double what? Or do you think every power core double strenght and speed? Shake brought up a valid point, and I'd like to know what you think about it before agreeing with this part with no elaboration.

Problem with Point 2, their respective Core Types increase their damage output within Sonic Heroes as well. So they're all getting an AP increase, regardless of whether or not it's specifically the Red Cores.

Oh shit. You're right. Starline does say that each power cores amplifies the user's "physical capabillities", and not just strenght or speed individually. The most logical conclusion would be that they all amplify strenght and speed, and that the color of the cores only determines what kind of character can harness them. Power focused characters like Knuckles and Zavok can only make use of the red ones while speed focused characters like Sonic and Shadow can only make use of the blue ones. This would explain why Starline specifically highlighted the strenght multiplier that would be granted to Zavok as a power character. It would also explain why speed type characters with 3 cores don't blitz power type characters in Heroes, and why Power type characters with 3 cores don't steamroll the speed types. Do you think that's a reach? Because I don't think it makes sense to presume power cores only multiply power given what we know about them.

Well no, I don't see why it'd be base stats x 2 x 3. Each Power Core doubles the holder's power. So it doubles it three times, resulting in 2 x 2 x 2 = 8

Yeah, it doubles the power of the holder. Not the power of the holder and the thing they're already holding, especially when bosses can keep up with character with 0 to 3 power cores.

 

[omegabronic]

Yeah, the power of the individual is multiplied. Nothing suggests the individual AND the power core they already carry is multiplied in power.

the power core itself is not multiplied, the power of the individual is already that high when 1 multiplier is used tho, making the multiplication already apply to the value either way

You said the quiet part out loud when it comes to which part of the quote you chose to highlight. Here's the quote again:

What it says is that the evidence necessary for such exponential multipliers to be valid is equal to the evidence necessary for the total output of the stacked multipliers. In Sonic Heroes' case, the fact that the bosses can keep up with the characters regardless of how many power cores they have is counter-evidence to the notion that they stack to each other.

not in the same way, the damage you deal to them is greater the more power cores you have, so them "keeping up" is not really a contradiction when their performance is better against said bosses when they have more power cores

You may think a 6x multiplier is a negligeable difference from an 8x multiplier, but as you can see here, all it takes to contradict a multiplier as small as 10x is for that character to be able to keep up with another with or without the multiplier.

not when the "keeping up part" is still taking into account by them doing better against said characters, they deal more damage, the "contradiction" you are talking about simply doesn't exist at all

also you do understand that your "contradiction" is equally existent with your "6x" multiplier, right? which has no base btw, this of it, i have 1 Egg, double it, now i have 2 eggs, i double it, i have 4 eggs, i double it, i have 8 eggs

this is how multipliers work, 8x is not a big difference for the bosses to not be completely everpowered to be such a big factor as you are saying it is

A multiplier of 7 times is also too high for it to valid in such a context, so 6x is the absolute max.

in this case both base Raiden and Reaper Raiden perform equally against armstrong, in the power cores case this doesn't happen at all, they perform better

plus "one shots" and "blitz" values are verse dependent, using whataboutism of other verses really isn't the play you want to make here

Like I said, I understand the logic behind it. What I'm proposing is still a multiplier of the character's base strenght, without going into territory which is unsupported, if not contradicted by the available evidence.

1 it isn't contradicted at all

2 your method has no basis at all, it doesn't make sense with how multipliers work in the first place

When that same exponential increase is applied to a massively upscaled extent to users of the Chaos Emeralds, who can and have carried up to 7 of them, those stacked multipliers suddenly make a pretty enormous difference, don't you think?

are you.......trying to move the goalpost? you are talking about the 8x multiplier of the Power Cores, the Emerald's scalling has support given the 4-A feat in Battle that supports the power growth, i am not going to move the goalpost to another topic, you said 8x is too high compared to 6x, you are wrong, move on from there

To be clear, you think blue cores double speed, red cores double strenght, and yellow cores double what? Or do you think every power core double strenght and speed? Shake brought up a valid point, and I'd like to know what you think about it before agreeing with this part with no elaboration.

yes for power, yes for speed, stamina for Yellow, altho i see merit in what Shake is saying

Yeah, it doubles the power of the holder. Not the power of the holder and the thing they're already holding, especially when bosses can keep up with character with 0 to 3 power cores.

who said anything about doubling the power they are already holding? the power of the holder IS THAT HIGH when holding said thing, the power of the holder is being multiplied

 

[ShakeResounding]

Oh shit. You're right. Starline does say that each power cores amplifies the user's "physical capabillities", and not just strenght or speed individually. The most logical conclusion would be that they all amplify strenght and speed, and that the color of the cores only determines what kind of character can harness them.

Exactly correct!

Power focused characters like Knuckles and Zavok can only make use of the red ones while speed focused characters like Sonic and Shadow can only make use of the blue ones. This would explain why Starline specifically highlighted the strenght multiplier that would be granted to Zavok as a power character. It would also explain why speed type characters with 3 cores don't blitz power type characters in Heroes, and why Power type characters with 3 cores don't steamroll the speed types. Do you think that's a reach? Because I don't think it makes sense to presume power cores only multiply power given what we know about them.

I don't think it's a reach. This is actually what would make the most sense to me because exactly how you put it. They're just class-gated, but provide the same effect to all.

However, I didn't want to apply the 2x speed upgrade for Power Cores way back when to avoid any assumptions. But there might be some basis behind it, as Starline could blitz the Chaotix and make his getaway in that one issue.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

the power core itself is not multiplied, the power of the individual is already that high when 1 multiplier is used tho, making the multiplication already apply to the value either way

The power of the individual is only that high for as long as they hold the power core. When they stop doing so going into the next level, thier power goes back to normal, so it does very much seem you are implying that the power core's output itself is multiplied by an additional power core.

"one shots" and "blitz" values are verse dependent

If you can convince me that this makes sense, I'll concede. Why would one shot and blitz values be verse dependent?

are you.......trying to move the goalpost? you are talking about the 8x multiplier of the Power Cores, the Emerald's scalling has support given the 4-A feat in Battle that supports the power growth, i am not going to move the goalpost to another topic, you said 8x is too high compared to 6x, you are wrong, move on from there

Can you chill out and not baselessly accuse me, please? Your way of arguing is very obnoxious. I saw it the last time you argued with JJ, and I don't want this discussion to turn out like that one. That being said, I did not move the goal post. You said that the difference between a 8x multiplier and a 6x multiplier is small. I said that's not the point. The point is that the exponential increase is baseless, and is definitely not small when it is already accepted to aply to the Chaos Emeralds as a result of thier upscaling from the power cores.

yes for power, yes for speed, stamina for Yellow, altho i see merit in what Shake is saying

In hindsight, Shake makes the most sense. There's actually no basis for a stamina increase.

Exactly correct!

I don't think it's a reach. This is actually what would make the most sense to me because exactly how you put it. They're just class-gated, but provide the same effect to all.

However, I didn't want to apply the 2x speed upgrade for Power Cores way back when to avoid any assumptions. But there might be some basis behind it, as Starline could blitz the Chaotix and make his getaway in that one issue.

I'll edit the OP to reflect the new conclusion

 

[CloverDragon03]

If you can convince me that this makes sense, I'll concede. Why would one shot and blitz values be verse dependent?

That's just a natural part of the whole power scaling deal. We have a one-shot gap on the wiki, for instance, but that's only for VS matches to keep things standardized.

I'll use an example of a different one-shot gap, though. In Fairy Tail, the mage Jura has a magic power rating of 8544, compared to Orga's 3825. A less than 3x difference, yet later on, Jura straight up one-shot s Orga. Yet this gap isn't standard across verses, as Kid Buu doesn't one-shot SSJ2 Vegeta despite the 4x gap

The same applies to blitzes. To bring up Fairy Tail again, Wendy reacts to and evades attacks from someone 4x faster than her (explicitly 4x because her speed is even with his when she amplifies her speed by this much). However, the robots in Sonic Prime blitzing Sonic and his allies was after an entire unquantifiable boost. The values for one-shots and blitzes are not uniform at all

Also, here's an excerpt from the One-Shot Page:

The gap needed to qualify varies from verse to verse, which makes a one-shot from a VS Battles standpoint very hard to determine.

And from the Speed Blitz Page:

But it can often be difficult to pinpoint when exactly a speed advantage constitutes a "blitz." So instead such decision is mostly given on a case by case basis and using common sense.

 

[omegabronic]

The power of the individual is only that high for as long as they hold the power core. When they stop doing so going into the next level, thier power goes back to normal, so it does very much seem you are implying that the power core's output itself is multiplied by an additional power core.

You do know they hold all 3 power cores at once right? Like, i don't see your point, yeah they lose it when they aren't in hold of it.....but they are in hold of them, that's the point

If you can convince me that this makes sense, I'll concede. Why would one shot and blitz values be verse dependent?

"The gap needed to qualify varies from verse to verse, which makes a one-shot from a VS Battles standpoint very hard to determine."

One-Shot

A One-Shot is a self-explanatory term, referring to defeating an opponent in a single attack. Take two hypothetical opponents. We'll call them Fighter A and Fighter B. In a normal fight, Fighters A and B can exchange several attacks with each other. When one of the fighters can one-shot, Fighter...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The wiki doesn't even have a Blitz number for that matter

"But it can often be difficult to pinpoint when exactly a speed advantage constitutes a "blitz." So instead such decision is mostly given on a case by case basis and using common sense."

Speed Blitz

Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them. Blitzing is different than outpacing, where a character is simply faster than the other. A blitz is more like an all around outclassing in speed. One somewhat similar example of a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can you chill out and not baselessly accuse me, please? Your way of arguing is very obnoxious. I saw it the last time you argued with JJ, and I don't want this discussion to turn out like that one.

i was not accusing you, i was genuially asking, serious here, that is just how i talk

That being said, I did not move the goal post. You said that the difference between a 8x multiplier and a 6x multiplier is small. I said that's not the point. The point is that the exponential increase is baseless

it isn't baseless, it is simply how stacking multipliers work, the base value is multiplied 3 times over, making it: 2x1=2 2x2=4 4×2=8

What is actually baseless is you trying to make it 6x instead when......there is no logic to that, it simply isn't how multipliers work at all

, and is definitely not small when it is already accepted to aply to the Chaos Emeralds as a result of thier upscaling from the power cores.

8x is small, you can't really change that fact, the Emerald's multiplier is supported by statements of their power, and feats made by chars in sonic battle

In hindsight, Shake makes the most sense. There's actually no basis for a stamina increase.

ok

I'll edit the OP to reflect the new conclusion

Sure