Potential Undertale Downgrades.

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Pains me to do this but.. I guess it must be done.

This is regarding the speed of Undertale characters. From what I can see the Relativistic speed rating comes from Knight Knights use of the sun. However there are some problems with this.

1 = There is no evidence regarding Knight Knight's creation to be the sun or even using it. I checked through every single quote Knight Knight says and none of them lead to the slightest assumption that he managed to create a mini condensed sun. The only real proof is a visual representation on what appears to be the sun but that is not really good enough.

• Adieu.
• Goodbye.
• Good Knight.
• Close your eyes...
• Fare well
• Zzzzz...
• ... [Talk]
• ... It's OK
• This megaton mercenary wields the Good Morningstar. [Check]
• Knight Knight watches quietly. [Neutral]
• Smells like stardust. [Neutral]
• Knight Knight's armor emits a dark sheen. [Neutral]
• Knight Knight smashes her morningstar. [Neutral]
• Knight Knight breathes deeply. [Neutral]
• You ask Knight Knight about her day. There's no response. [Talk]
• You ask Knight Knight about her day. [Talk 3 times]
• You sing an old lullaby. Knight Knight starts to look sleepy... [Sing]
• You sing Shyren's song. Knight Knight starts to look sleepy... [Sing with Shyren spared from humming]
• You keep singing. Knight Knight closes its eyes for a bit... [Sing twice]
• You keep singing. Knight Knight falls asleep. [Sing 3 times]
• Knight Knight is snoring. [Sleep]
• You keep singing. Nothing happened. [Sing 4+ times]
• You talk to Knight Knight. she hums something in her sleep...

Source

2 = Even if Knight Knight did create a sun how would we even know if it functioned similarly to ours? There are many sun creation feats in fiction and most of these suns are rarely assumed to function similary to the one that we have. I mean we are not even sure if it created a sun or not. Seems far to assumptious.

3 = How is the sun in Undertale even able to possibly breach through the underground, especially the core? This point may seem nitpicky but still. The only time sunlight really comes through is when Frisk and Asgore are in the barrier. This point can be dismissed if it has been answered before.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[SomebodyData]

INB4 Azathoth the God of HyperTale arrives

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. Pretty sure this has been discussed numerous times, before.

2. Napstablook

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

If Knight Knight using the "sun" is truly incorrect then Napstablook blocking out light the light via curtains can be regarded as an outlier or just a mere gag feat.

Also I never recalled this being brought up what so ever,

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If Knight Knight using the "sun" is truly incorrect then Napstablook blocking out light the light via curtains can be regarded as an outlier or just a mere gag feat.
Also I never recalled this being brought up what so ever,

An outlier is only an outlier if it is contradicted by later showings, which is not the case, here. Especially considering the nature of Determination itself and how massively Frisk's own speed fluctuates when needed.

There have been several threads on the matter. You can check the "Undertale" discussions, I believe.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Something can also be an outlier when this type of feat is never replicated by any of the cast again (Bar Flowey,Sans etc) any anomalies should not be counted towards the verses actual speed. Roshi for example for him being able to bust the moon while stronger characters were not able to.

Also could you please spare me the grind of having to check by providing me the conclusion? That would be nice.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Roshi's moon bust is an outlier because stronger characters later in the series struggled to perform feats on much, much smaller scales. Napstablook moving that fast is never contradicted. If Beerus and Goku's universe feat had been followed by numerous characters being impressed/hurt by planet busters, then it would be considered an outlier. Had Napstablook been like...unable to dodge a bullet or something, then yes, the feat could be considered an outlier. However, as I've already said, this is not the case.

Considering nobody ever really provided anything against Napstablook's feat being legit aside from "it's a gag feat" or "outlier", both of which are pretty easily countered, it's assumed to be legit.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I also feel like this was already mentioned before, but just thought I'd add that everyone agrees on Knight Knight's sun and moon not being the actual sun and moon, but simply smaller creations, as obviously, the sun cannot fit under the surface of the earth.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

I also feel like this was already mentioned before, but just thought I'd add that everyone agrees on Knight Knight's sun and moon not being the actual sun and moon, but simply smaller creations, as obviously, the sun cannot fit under the surface of the earth.

Well, it could be said that it's an artifical sun and moon with similar properties as to the real world sun and moon.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Napstablook's feat is still an incredible anomaly that should not be counted towards anything though. No other characters that scale to Nap have ever been able to replicate feats on his scale. I thought anomalies where always dismissed for the characters stats.

And there is still the issue of Knight Knight's "sun" feat.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, it could be said that it's an artifical sun and moon with similar properties.

I mean, probably? Monsters' magic reflects their thoughts and personalities and makes things which reflect on them, so it would make sense for Knight Knight to make a sun and moon.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Well, it could be said that it's an artifical sun and moon with similar properties.

I mean, probably? Monsters' magic reflects their thoughts and personalities and makes things which reflect on them, so it would make sense for Knight Knight to make a sun and moon.

Indeed, and it has been shown that creation isn't an odd thing in the underworld, San's Gasterblasters for one are shown as a creation to represent his scientific nature.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Napstablook's feat is still an incredible anomaly that should not be counted towards anything though. No other characters that scale to Nap have ever been able to replicate feats on his scale. I thought anomalies where always dismissed for the characters stats.
And there is still the issue of Knight Knight's "sun" feat.

I don't really see how it's an anomaly, when again, nothing in the game contradicts it. In fact, it's one of the few gauges of speed we have. I've seen a lot of "human level" or "slightly superhuman" thrown around, but in reality, these have almost no basis, and are based more on what people feel they should have rather than anything else in the game. In fact, crazy speed isn't exactly an uncommon thing. For instance, iirc, Undyne makes it to Snowdin almost immediately after leaving her flaming house, and she was travelling on foot.

I believe I mentioned that, above.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

But you cannot assume that Knight Knights creations heavily resemble our actual sun and moon because it is a reflection of his thoughts etc. That is not good enough proof we need some actual statements showing that sun to be legit.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Napstablook's feat is still an incredible anomaly that should not be counted towards anything though. No other characters that scale to Nap have ever been able to replicate feats on his scale. I thought anomalies where always dismissed for the characters stats.
And there is still the issue of Knight Knight's "sun" feat.

I don't really see how it's an anomaly, when again, nothing in the game contradicts it. In fact, it's one of the few gauges of speed we have. I've seen a lot of "human level" or "slightly superhuman" thrown around, but in reality, these have almost no basis, and are based more on what people feel they should have rather than anything else in the game. In fact, crazy speed isn't exactly an uncommon thing. For instance, iirc, Undyne makes it to Snowdin almost immediately after leaving her flaming house, and she was travelling on foot.
I believe I mentioned that, above.

That and in the instance of the True Pacifist run, at the end of the kingdom and at the barrier, before fighting Asgore, Toriel, who was way far off at the ruins, appears out of nowhere as if through crazy speed, and then soon after, All of the monsters of the Underworld show up in seconds no matter how far away they were.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Instead of basing Undertale's speed around the assumption of Knight Knight creating a sun or the Napstablook feat which is never replicated by any of the cast again why don't we use Undyne's foot speed as a more concrete way to calculate there speed?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But you cannot assume that Knight Knights creations heavily resemble our actual sun and moon because it is a reflection of his thoughts etc. That is not good enough proof we need some actual statements showing that sun to be legit.

It does not need to have the exact same structure, though there's little reason to assume it doesn't. The bones created through Papyrus' magic seem to physically act as regular bones. Froggit seems able to create living flies through its magic. Knight Knight's sun floats there and seems to radiate light in all directions, which is similar to what any other star would do.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Instead of basing Undertale's speed around the assumption of Knight Knight creating a sun or the Napstablook feat which is never replicated by any of the cast again why don't we use Undyne's foot speed as a more concrete way to calculate there speed?

Because I don't think it's calcable. I mean, it MIGHT be, but it would require some guesswork. And if we go that way, you can use the same complaint of "nobody else replicates this feat".

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

However Undyne being able to travel long distances has been replicated. By almost all of the cast by the end of the game.

And Napstablook being somehow 100's of times faster than Undyne makes not a lot of sense.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Long, yet unspecific distances, yes. However, if this is true, then there's no reason Napstablook's speed feat should be viewed as illegitimate.

Napstablook wouldn't be 100 times faster. At all. Every combat capable monster was present and trapped by Flowey when they were sucked into the light, and some of the most powerful (Undyne, Asgore, Toriel) were all completely unable to move and restrained by vines. The only ones not present in Flowey's trap were civilian monsters (who likely aren't nearly as fast or strong) and Napstablook (the only combat capable monster not present), who was able to react to the light.

 

[Squid_peanut]

if you have someone creating something that looks like a sun, acts like a sun, and emits light that can be dodged by someone already known to possess a range of possible speeds, it can be assumed that the attack and defender are moving at speeds relatable to light, which requires the attacker to be moving at similar speeds too since they can keep up with the defender. this also would require that anyone comparable to or above the attacker must be capable of similar speeds otherwise they would be moving in slow motion. this is then supported by the fact that Undertale has other speed feets that match up with this calc. If you want to say these feets are outliers then provide solid evidence of contradictions where this framework makes actual problems beyond "well maybe it just doesn't work that way"

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Ah so you're saying to me that there are speed calculations which would resemble Napstablooks eh? This is where you prove to me that Napstablooks feat was not a one time feat that nobody else in the game managed to replicate. You have the burden of proof my friend not me.

Also read back to my points on to why I believe that the sun Knight Knight created was used via magical resources and therefore its legitimacy as a real sun has dropped down significantly the same goes with fictional lightning and photons. The same goes with creating suns.

I already showed you why I thought that Napstabloosk feat was a outlier. It was performed by one of the weaker members of the cast that none of the stronger characters could of performed.

Oh yea making a moon that shoots out projectiles is definately legitimate proof as to why the sun Knight Knight created does indeed prove its legitimacy.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I already showed you why I thought that Napstabloosk feat was a outlier. It was performed by one of the weaker members of the cast that none of the stronger characters could of performed.

That's the thing. As I've said before, absolutely nothing indicates that nobody stronger than Napstablook could have performed this.

EVERYBODY stronger than Napstablook was at the epicenter of Flowey's attack, and the absolute strongest of them were physically being crushed by vines. The strongest person not present was Napstablook, and he managed to react to it.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Undertale attacks are completely different from their real life counterparts. Toriel can create flame that is only pleasantly warm, Vulkin can stick a hot dog inside a lava without melting it. Meanwhile Woshua can kill you by splashing water. Actual laser attacks like lasers in hotlands, mettaton's disco ball, flowey's beam or gaster blasters are instant and impossible to outrun. Sun attack obviously has nothing to do with a real sun.

Also Napsta never fights you, he simply stands still and cries. So even if he is as fast as you claim you can't scale everyone else to him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also Napsta never fights you, he simply stands still and cries. So even if he is as fast as you claim you can't scale everyone else to him.

Yes, you can. Napstablook is one of the weakest monsters in the game. Quite literally everything after the Ruins (that isn't Jerry) is stronger than he is.

 

[WarpyNeko930]

Yeah, I agree. If a Sun is created through magical means, you can't call it a real sun. And Napstablook's feat is really ambiguous. Maybe it was, IDK, a gag, or a poetic feat.

 

[XxFNAFCraft911xX]

Also Napsta never fights you, he simply stands still and cries. So even if he is as fast as you claim you can't scale everyone else to him.

Yes, you can. Napstablook is one of the weakest monsters in the game. Quite literally everything after the Ruins (that isn't Jerry) is stronger than he is.

Stat scaling for Pokemon but not Undertale

ok

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Stat scaling for Pokemon but not Undertale

ok

This has been explained like at least a dozen times.

There are two sets of stats in Undertale.

CHECK stats and internal stats.

Internal stats influence the damage a character does in battle and how much damage they can take.

CHECK stats serve no purpose other than to show how strong one character is compared to another.

Stats in pokemon are equivalent to internal stats, not check stats.

It cannot be argued that Slaking is as strong as Arceus because stats.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Don't you mean stat scaling for Undertale but not Pokemon? Pokemon profiles (no longer) use stat scaling... (@Desthetical)

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I already showed you why I thought that Napstabloosk feat was a outlier. It was performed by one of the weaker members of the cast that none of the stronger characters could of performed.

That's the thing. As I've said before, absolutely nothing indicates that nobody stronger than Napstablook could have performed this.
EVERYBODY stronger than Napstablook was at the epicenter of Flowey's attack, and the absolute strongest of them were physically being crushed by vines. The strongest person not present was Napstablook, and he managed to react to it.

Closing the blinds before light comes in does not mean Napsta saw the light coming through and therefore shut the blinds.

As read on the wiki when the light of Asriel was knocking on there door they simply just closed the blinds. I don't see that can be a feat of speed because its ambigious that Napstablook managed to see the light before reacting to it or vice versa. The knocking on the door part would even imply that the light from Asriel was not really a photon type light either. Too many unknowns here and thats why making Relativistic Undertale is too fishy.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Closing the blinds before light comes in does not mean Napsta saw the light coming through and therefore shut the blinds.

As read on the wiki when the light of Asriel was knocking on there door they simply just closed the blinds. I don't see that can be a feat of speed because its ambigious that Napstablook managed to see the light before reacting to it or vice versa. The knocking on the door part would even imply that the light from Asriel was not really a photon type light either. Too many unknowns here and thats why making Relativistic Undertale is too fishy.

Except he explicitly talks about how he saw it absorb the snails outside his window.

I believe I've said this before, but "knocking" does not equate to "stopped", unless you want to argue that the light (in like the one second span when the screen whited out) knocked on everyone in the Underground's doors and had them open up as opposed to just going through windows.

 

[Pplherearemad]

How do you know that he is one of the weakest? He never fights you, you never scratch him, he pretends to lose because it would be rude to do otherwise, he beats one of the waterfall bosses by accident.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

How do you know that he is one of the weakest? He never fights you, you never scratch him, he pretends to lose because it would be rude to do otherwise, he beats one of the waterfall bosses by accident.

Napstablook's CHECK stats are both 10. That's lower than the weakest enemies in Snowdin. Also, Napstablook doesn't beat Mad Dummy. His tears hurt the dummy, because they're magic, and only magic causes him pain. He explains it during the battle.

 

[Jesterofgames]

How do you know that he is one of the weakest? He never fights you, you never scratch him, he pretends to lose because it would be rude to do otherwise, he beats one of the waterfall bosses by accident.

Said Boss was mad dummy a monster that could only be affected by Magic attack's

And was probably weakened beforehand since it got hit with a ton of magic attack's

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

The light Napstablook saw may of been absorbing the souls of the snails and that it was not the flash of light which overcame them. The use of the word "knocking" is incredibly bizzare way to describe light. I am not saying the light stopped I am just incredibly perplexed by the use of personification in that phrase. It makes this flash of light seem like a entity rather than an actual photon laser and the use of personification kind of proves it. And thats why I find it quite hard to believe that Napstablook managed to intercept the light.

 

[XxFNAFCraft911xX]

Those CHECK stats work like power levels, right?

 

[Pplherearemad]

And Sans is weakest enemy and can deal only 1 dmg :^)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@A-M-M

The exact Napstablook conversation is:

"seems like i've been missing out, lately

i was just sitting at home listening to tunes

there was a flash of light outside my window

i saw the snails on the farm disappear

then i heard a knock at the door

the flash of light wanted to come in...

i closed the blinds..."

It implies the light did not reach Napstablook before he shut the blinds. Also, if we want to go the whole "if he could see it, why wasn't he absorbed" route, it's fiction. By that same logic, nobody who moves FTL would be able to see.

 

[Jesterofgames]

And Sans is weakest enemy and can deal only 1 dmg :^)

But ignores invicability frame's and leave's lingering damage

So he's really doing 20-30 damage per hit if you don't dodge in time and get hit with the brunt of the attack

2-10 damage if you get skimmed with it.

So he's still Technically one of the strongest

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Those CHECK stats work like power levels, right?

They work as vague, "this character is x amount of times superior to this other character" values, yes.