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Potential Undertale Downgrades.

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Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@A-M-M
The exact Napstablook conversation is:

"seems like i've been missing out, lately

i was just sitting at home listening to tunes

there was a flash of light outside my window

i saw the snails on the farm disappear

then i heard a knock at the door

the flash of light wanted to come in...

i closed the blinds..."

It implies the light did not reach Napstablook before he shut the blinds. Also, if we want to go the whole "if he could see it, why wasn't he absorbed" route, it's fiction. By that same logic, nobody who moves FTL would be able to see.
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My point is that the light that was coming towards Napstablook was not a true photon laser. It was described as making the snails disappear which would contradict how light acts in the first place. We have no idea if this flash behaved like a photon or not but due to it making snails vanish I would say it contradicts how light acts.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
My point is that this light was not a proper photon. I said this because the light itself was making the snails disapear which in itself denies how light acts. If that light was a photon Napsta making a comment on the snails disapearing would not of happned. This flash of light described by Napsta does not behave like a photon whatsoever.
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The light was making the snails disappear because they were being absorbed into Flowey, as whatever the light touched had its soul sucked. It was still repeatedly described as a flash of light, and it covered the Underground in no time at all. Were there unnatural elements to it? Obviously. It was created by a power transcending time and space. This however does not take away from the fact it was repeatedly described as light, was omnidirectional, and appeared to be light. The light could have added effects due to its origin and still function as light, which everyone seemed to imply it did.
 
Good point. I feel that making a case for Napstablook being SOL or FTL would be easier to prove rather than trying to prove that what Knight Knight done was a real sun etc.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
Good point. I feel that making a case for Napstablook being SOL or FTL would be easier to prove rather than trying to prove that what Knight Knight done was a real sun etc.
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Honestly I was originally just going to put "Faster than Napstablook" in a lot of the speed descriptions, but I felt people wouldn't bother looking at the profile for the reasons. Still, I'll probably add it, actually.
 
Sounds good.

But yeah you should definately try to upgrade Napstablook and the people who scale to him as At least Speed Of Light. Napstablook was indeed capable of viewing this flash of light absorbing the snails and travel all the way to his window, and in this amount of time Napstablook was fast enough to shut his curtains before it was able to pass through.

This sounds much better than gambling on wether or not Knight Knight created or used a Sun that may not have functioned like ours at all.
 
I just wanna point it out that if there are FTL/SoL characters then the Papyrus calc wouldn't work...
 
The reason for rel+ was, I believe there was a calc done (for Samurai Jack, I believe) for reacting to light from a certain distance, which was in the rel+ range as opposed to SoL.
 
But Jack was not reacting to an omnidrectional blast of light like how Napstablook did so thats where it differs a bit.

And you also should consider that Napstablook percieved this flash of light from the time it hit the snails all the way up to the point it hit his door hence the knock statement. And Naps just shut the blinds down before it could pass through. Seems like SOL to me.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Possibly. I'll try and find the best estimate, and if it changes anything, calcs can be redone/different ones can be made.
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I see. I find it funny how this went from downgrade to potential upgrade. Well atleast my doubts about the whole Rel thing has been cleared up, thanks Az.
 
WarpyNeko930 said:
Just like to point out...
We see Undyne chasing you. And uh, you aren't covering FTL/Relativistic Levels of distance
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Reactions=/=movement speed. There are also a LOT of video game characters who don't look as fast as they are. Look at almost any video game character's profile.
 
WarpyNeko930 said:
Yeah, but Game Mechanics are apparently canon to Undertale or smth
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Certain game mechanics are part of the world. That doesn't mean everything is exactly as you see it or that Frisk is simply briskly walking away from Undyne instead of running.
 
Ok so underground is populated by lightspeed monsters. Those monsters require public transport. Muffet has ftl spiders but somehow needs money to get them safely out of ruins. Some monster use beam attacks that are faster than light by orders of magnitude. Napsta was somehow capable of seeing something moving at speed of light even if it's physically impossible and despite that he was only one who reacted to it he is one of slowest monsters because his def and attack stats that have nothing to do with speed are low when he isn't fighting.

Seems legit.
 
Pplherearemad said:
Ok so underground is populated by lightspeed monsters. Those monsters require public transport. Muffet has ftl spiders but somehow needs money to get them safely out of ruins. Some monster use beam attacks that are faster than light by orders of magnitude. Napsta was somehow capable of seeing something moving at speed of light even if it's physically impossible and despite that he was only one who reacted to it he is one of slowest monsters because his def and attack stats that have nothing to do with speed are low when he isn't fighting.

Seems legit.
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^
 
Pplherearemad said:
Ok so underground is populated by lightspeed monsters. Those monsters require public transport. Muffet has ftl spiders but somehow needs money to get them safely out of ruins. Some monster use beam attacks that are faster than light by orders of magnitude. Napsta was somehow capable of seeing something moving at speed of light even if it's physically impossible and despite that he was only one who reacted to it he is one of slowest monsters because his def and attack stats that have nothing to do with speed are low when he isn't fighting.
Seems legit.
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Your argument cannot just be "I don't feel this is right and therefore it isn't". This is a fantasy world in which monsters made of magic are imprisoned underground by humans who can use the power of their souls and determination to grow stronger, come back from the dead, and reset time.

Also, something being "impossible" in real life has absolutely no meaning in fiction. We don't judge it based on what's possible in real life.
 
Pplherearemad said:
"Lol it's magic, it doesn't have to make any sense, i'm right and you are wrong lol" -you
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It doesn't, though. That's why it's fictio.

This seems to happen in every thread I've talked to you in, and really, it's growing tiresome. "It doesn't seem right, so it's wrong" isn't the correct train of thought to take, here. "Seems legit" does not constitute a proper argument.

"Saibamen, which the Saiyans can plant any time, are all sub-relativistc+ moon busters? Seems legit". It can be done for anything, and doesn't take into account evidence provided for why things are the way they are. I much rather have a proper argument than just random acts of passive aggression.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Pplherearemad said:
"Lol it's magic, it doesn't have to make any sense, I'm right and you are wrong lol" -you
Click to expand...
It doesn't, though. That's why it's fictio.
This seems to happen in every thread I've talked to you in, and really, it's growing tiresome. "It doesn't seem right, so it's wrong" isn't the correct train of thought to take, here. "Seems legit" does not constitute a proper argument.

"Saibamen, which the Saiyans can plant anytime, are all sub-relativistc+ moon busters? Seems legit". It can be done for anything, and doesn't take into account evidence provided for why things are the way they are. I much rather have a proper argument than just random acts of passive aggression.
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Or they can only move at Lightspeed in Short burst's

That would explain Why Frisk is Super slow Yet dodges Lightspeed attack's

that would explain how sans the Laziest character ever can dodge your attack's after gaining a lot of strength and speed

Heck it also explains's why monster's use Transportation and stuff They just don't feel like constantly moving in Lightspeed short burst's (even if they could probably get Pretty far in that time)

DO you feel like moving as fast as you can in short burst's everywhere?
 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Underground being full of flash tier speedsters is pretty radical claim and i doubt that anybody outside of this place believes this. You need to be certain that Napsta performed lightspeed feat. Reacting to magical effect that could be lighstpeed is nowhere near enough. And you need to be certain that Napsta is slower than other monsters. You have literally zero proofs supporting it. Only your gut feeling. Seriously, his attack and def are low so he is one of the slowest? Seriosly? SERIOUSLY? Elephant is obviously faster than cheetah because he is tougher and stronger.
 
Pplherearemad said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Underground being full of flash tier speedsters is pretty radical claim and i doubt that anybody outside of this place believes this. You need to be certain that Napsta performed lightspeed feat. Reacting to magical effect that could be lighstpeed is nowhere near enough. And you need to be certain that Napsta is slower than other monsters. You have literally zero proofs supporting it. Only your gut feeling. Seriously, his attack and def are low so he is one of the slowest? Seriosly? SERIOUSLY? Elephant is obviously faster than cheetah because he is tougher and stronger.
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>Flash tier

I don't think anyone ever suggested that the Underground is full of characters literally quintillions of times faster than light.

I've also explained above why Napstablook performing said feat is justifiable, and that he did indeed see the light and close the blinds before it got inside. Obviously, one should not be able to see light before it touches them, but again, this is one of the most common things in fiction that applies to every FTL character.

Also, Napstablook should be inferior to most other monsters in most aspects, as monsters are magic made manifest. They're primarily made of that as opposed to physical matter. Because of this, monsters who are more powerful also seem to attack at a quicker pace and make more effective use of their power. Sans is the very rare exception, because despite being weaker than a Froggit, he breaks the rules of the world and uses them to his advantage, fighting dirty and avoiding things he shouldn't be able to. However, this doesn't seem to be the norm.

Regardless, we're not even assuming other, much stronger monsters are multiple times faster than Napstablook (i.e. "Undyne is X times stronger than Napstablook, so she is also X times faster"). They're given a comparable speed rating as the safe lower end, as unless shown to be an exception (like Sans), there's no reason to assume Napstablook is comparatively a speedster.
 
Find evidence. Find more examples. Silly and vague feat of 1 person is NOT ENOUGH

Ok so you feel that magic works this way and napsta is that strong compared to others, where is real evidence? This debate is becoming laughable.

Btw explain why Frisk is unable to outrun gaster blasters, disco ball light, hotlands lasers, flowey's and asriel's beams. Are those attacks using Massively FTL light?

Btw 2: Is gravity accelerating falling objects to lightspeed? I thing we need new upgrade. Undertale obviously takes place on the black hole.
 
The feat is not as vague as you make it out to be, and I posted the exact conversation it comes from, above.

...I said Napstablook wasn't that strong compared to others. I said there isn't evidence for him being abnormally strong or fast by monster standards. Just kind of...being average.

Asriel and God Flowey transcend basic time and space. I'm pretty sure their attacks are well beyond stuff like lightspeed, at that point. I also never recall Frisk failing to outrun the lasers. To my knowledge, there is no point at which they are directly fired at them, though I may be wrong on that.

Gaster Blasters, I don't know. We don't know exactly how fast they are or what exactly they are, though it's possible they're moving that fast. Light can sometimes move far faster than it should, in fiction. Remember that laser that went through Goku's chest? By that point in the series, it should have been frozen compared to him, yet it still appeared almost instantaneous.
 
It's just as vague as i make it out.

There is no evidence that he is slower than other monsters, we know basically nothing about how strong is Napsta, he never fights anybody, he never loses, monster stats wary depending on their willingness to fight, strongest and fastest monster has 1 hp attack and def. And Napsta cheats too, he lowers his hp without receiving any dmg so you can't argue that it's just because Sans has power over game mechanics.

Gaster blasters are sometimes fired directly at you, you can't outrun them, you have to move away before they fire. Flowey also fires beam directly. Asriel even uses 2 different beam attacks. And don't forget mettaton's disco ball. Also with lighstpeed you should be able to run pass flickering lasers in hotlands instead of timing your steps. Also there are moments when time is measured like when you defuse bombs or when you use jetpack which is absolute unrefutable proof that Frisk moves at roughly noirmal speed, combat isn't slowed down and ftl undertale is complete bullshit. Also our little speedster Frisk can't even jump over small river.
 
Pplherearemad said:
It's just as vague as i make it out.
There is no evidence that he is slower than other monsters, we know basically nothing about how strong is Napsta, he never fights anybody, he never loses, monster stats wary depending on their willingness to fight, strongest and fastest monster has 1 hp attack and def. And Napsta cheats too, he lowers his hp without receiving any dmg so you can't argue that it's just because Sans has power over game mechanics.

Gaster blasters are sometimes fired directly at you, you can't outrun them, you have to move away before they fire. Flowey also fires beam directly. Asriel even uses 2 different beam attacks. And don't forget mettaton's disco ball. Also with lighstpeed you should be able to run pass flickering lasers in hotlands instead of timing your steps. Also there are moments when time is measured like when you defuse bombs or when you use jetpack which is absolute unrefutable proof that Frisk moves at roughly noirmal speed, combat isn't slowed down and ftl undertale is complete bullshit. Also our little speedster Frisk can't even jump over small river.
Click to expand...
Again, I fail to see how. Napstablook talks about seeing the flash of light outside their window, seeing the snails disappear, and shutting their blinds when the light is at their door and "wanted to come in".

Again, that's why their speed is rated in the same category, to be safe. Monster stats can vary yes, but it's not always the case (Toriel, for example). Napstablook's willingness to fight seems to always remain at "virtually nonexistent" no matter what, so I don't really think it's going to very, that much.

Napstablook's "cheating" is just lowering his own HP, which is meaningless to him anyway, because he's already dead. You can't kill ghosts, after all. Sans' cheating is messing with stuff like the menu screen, attacking you before the battle starts, nearly locking you in an inescapable stalemate, etc.

As I already said, I don't know how fast Gaster Blasters are, and I've already addressed the "varying speed of light" in fiction. I've also mentioned that Asriel and Flowey are beyond basic time, which would mean it's highly unlikely they're just trying to nail you with lightspeed attacks. The lasers in Hotland run on the orange-blue mechanic, so I mean technically, Frisk does run through quite a few of them, if you want to go that route.

The time for the bomb sequence isn't even in real time, though. It's all a ruse by Alphys to make herself look good, and time even slows down the closer the timer gets to 0. I've also already mentioned the difference between reaction speed and overall movement speed. I also fail to see how "jetpack = normal speed", when the only reason Frisk needs it is because they can't fly straight up in the air and grab the can.

As for the river thing, that's an obvious game mechanic, and I don't think it could be argued that Undyne isn't superhuman because she had the bird carry her across.
 
That denial. What can i say to free you from this insanity?

Like seriously. Massively ftl lasers, character is faster than light because Alphys gives you 3 minutes instead of 2, something explicitly mentioned by character is game mechanic, tiering someone without seeing them fight.

Maybe just place every undertale character as tier -infinity, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent across all verses and the real world if you want to wank it that much and ignore any arguments or respond to them by making shit up on the fly and treating it as objective fact.
 
Pplherearemad said:
That denial. What can i say to free you from this insanity?
Like seriously. Massively ftl lasers, character is faster than light because Alphys gives you 3 minutes instead of 2, something explicitly mentioned by character is game mechanic, tiering someone without seeing them fight.

Maybe just place every undertale character as tier -infinity, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent across all verses and the real world if you want to wank it that much and ignore any arguments or respond to them by making shit up on the fly and treating it as objective fact.
Click to expand...
Dude calm down, there's not much point in saying anything on the matter because for some unknown reason Undertale is worshipped on this site XD
 
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