Potential SAO Power Upgrade

[CurrySenpai]

Alright, this is probably gonna be quite divisive but I believe it has to be brought up since no one else has really talked about it. I was recently sent some new evidence that may help support the Kirito shaking feats (shaking the Underworld and the Universe) although the latter will not see a return to Multi Solar System Level it would instead be Small Planet Level according to this calc.

Now onto the evidence.

There are 2 important tweets of Reki Kawahara's that we need to look at in order for this upgrade to make sense.



The first reads:
So far, the stars other than the Sun and the two planets are projected in a spherical shape.
2.3.) The definition of the word "shaking" matters. Since there are no gas molecules in the underworld, no matter how big an explosion, a shock wave in the same sense as in the real world will not be generated.
"But Curry doesn't that entirely ruin your claims that you can upgrade Kirito?" hold on I'm getting to that.

Now here's the next tweet



The second reads:
However, it is suggested that the space itself vibrates when a huge "event rewriting" occurs by the mind system. In that sense, it is possible that the battle between Kirito and Gabriel and Kirito and Abyssal Horror shook the underworld and some felt it.

Both translations were done by user @Tempestdragon6 on the wiki

But what exactly shook the Underworld/Space if the explosion couldn't have done it due to there being no gas molecules.

My belief is that Incarnation did it, especially when Reki is talking about "mind systems" and "event rewriting".

TL;DR: Kirito should receive a rating of [Insert Tier Here], possibly Low 6-B with Incarnation and the Night Sky Sword's Release Recollection | [Insert Tier Here], possibly Low 5-B with Incarnation and Release Recollection for his War of Underworld and End of Alicization keys respectively.

I'll definitely need a ping on the supporters of this verse as well those who are knowledgable and DMUA but I really think that with this new evidence it's entirely possible we may see a return to a stronger Kirito.

Agree: Probleme.exe, FallenMaou2234, Speezenator, Skeletonslayer56, Shots, Joycap

Disagree: Kaantantr, DMUA

Neutral: Rendychr0no, Zencha9

 

[RitsuØ1]

Well, I don't usually come here often as much as I do, but I will help out a friend in this case. The tweets x explanations look reasonable to me. Put me in for agreement.

 

[PrinceofPein]

1. Put those calcs in a blog and get them accepted by a calc member
2. Get those tweets translated and put the translations in OP
3. We don’t take WOG very often here, especially a tweet, and I can’t even tell what the tweet is cause well it’s not translated

 

[CurrySenpai]

1. Put those calcs in a blog and get them accepted by a calc member
2. Get those tweets translated and put the translations in OP
3. We don’t take WOG very often here, especially a tweet, and I can’t even tell what the tweet is cause well it’s not translated

1. Oops my bad lol
2. Can't you just click on the tweet and hit translate tweet?
3. I think this should be a good instance where WoG is needed because it applies more context and supporting evidence to something that was debated earlier.

 

[RitsuØ1]

3. We don’t take WOG very often here, especially a tweet, and I can’t even tell what the tweet is cause well it’s not translated

TBF, the downgrade used WoG tweets. I think it's only fair if the upgrade can use it too. At least imo.

 

[PrinceofPein]

2. Can't you just click on the tweet and hit translate tweet?

Nope, this is a CRT that will be linked to the page if this gets accepted.
So you should get someone to translate those tweets for you

 

[CurrySenpai]

Well I got the stuff translated all that’s left is to put the calc into a blog. Edit: Calc has been put in a blog and is now waiting to be evaluated.

 

[Kaantantr]

However, it is suggested that the space itself vibrates when a huge "event rewriting" occurs by the mind system. In that sense, it is possible that the battle between Kirito and Gabriel and Kirito and Abyssal Horror shook the underworld and some felt it.

This isn't suggested. It's just that people can sense incarnation through the connection inside the Lightcube Cluster as they are all technically connected to each other. It's the exact same thing as people feeling a very strong incarnation, the moment mist and rose smells covers the battlefield all the way during PoH vs Kirito battle.

I'm pretty sure these tweets had already come up in the downgrade threads anyways at some point and were addressed the same way. If the claim is "Well, it didn't shake physically but it seems like it actually shook somehow still in the physical sense somehow", you're gonna need to provide citations of people who actually felt an actual "shaking".

And this just loops back to the Cardina Space Force not even believing something had transpired just outside of their atmosphere due to not feeling anything anyways.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I'm pretty sure these tweets had already come up in the downgrade threads anyways at some point and were addressed the same way.

They couldn't have since the downgrade threads happened before these tweets were made I believe. Most happened in May/June while these tweets were tweeted in July.

Edit: The tweets were brought up in the general thread not the CRTs that must have been why I didn't see it.

I'll have a more written-out response though later. Although even if you don't believe in Low 5-B (Shaking Space) I still feel Low 6-B (Shaking the Underworld as in the planet) is still possible.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

Neutral

 

[Antvasima]

@Kaantantr @DMUA

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData @Mr._Bambu

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't know about this arc, never watched it. 'pologies.

 

[RitsuØ1]

This isn't suggested.

The suggested part comes from Reki himself…

If the claim is "Well, it didn't shake physically but it seems like it actually shook somehow still in the physical sense somehow", you're gonna need to provide citations of people who actually felt an actual "shaking".

Why would we need more evidence when the author himself said that it is possible that some people felt the shaking during both battles? Just saying.

 

[noxx]

Can't you just click on the tweet and hit translate tweet

its MTL so i dont think if wiki will accept it

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know about this arc, never watched it. 'pologies.

No problem.

 

[RitsuØ1]

its MTL so i dont think if wiki will accept it

It’s Translated

 

[Antvasima]

This isn't suggested. It's just that people can sense incarnation through the connection inside the Lightcube Cluster as they are all technically connected to each other. It's the exact same thing as people feeling a very strong incarnation, the moment mist and rose smells covers the battlefield all the way during PoH vs Kirito battle.

I'm pretty sure these tweets had already come up in the downgrade threads anyways at some point and were addressed the same way. If the claim is "Well, it didn't shake physically but it seems like it actually shook somehow still in the physical sense somehow", you're gonna need to provide citations of people who actually felt an actual "shaking".

And this just loops back to the Cardina Space Force not even believing something had transpired just outside of their atmosphere due to not feeling anything anyways.

Sorry. I did not notice that you had already replied.

So should nothing be done here then?

 

[CurrySenpai]

So should nothing be done here then?

I think there’s still room for debate especially with the new evidence provided.

 

[Zencha9]

netural

 

[Kaantantr]

Why would we need more evidence when the author himself said that it is possible that some people felt the shaking during both battles? Just saying.

I was almost going to give a thorough answer before I saw it was just you with a different profile picture.

So I'm just going to stop at "You can't attribute a feat to a possibility".

 

[Antvasima]

I think there’s still room for debate especially with the new evidence provided.

Okay.

 

[Zencha9]

I was almost going to give a thorough answer before I saw it was just you with a different profile picture.

So I'm just going to stop at "You can't attribute a feat to a possibility".

i'm still netrual but that's not true
we do there's a rating called "possibly" just for that reason and there's another one called "potentially"

 

[RitsuØ1]

I was almost going to give a thorough answer before I saw it was just you with a different profile picture.

So I'm just going to stop at "You can't attribute a feat to a possibility".

OK? And? You’re just denying WoG so you can prevent the upgrade from happening. No cap. People possibly felt it coming from the author himself. No more need to be asked. They aren’t getting a solid Low 6-B and Low 5-B ratings, just a potentially/possibly at best if accepted.

i'm still netrual but that's not true
we do there's a rating called "possibly" just for that reason and there's another one called "potentially"

^ Also this

 

[RitsuØ1]

I think there’s still room for debate especially with the new evidence provided.

I believe Cyberblader90 said that he is going to reply. Not sure when tho.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Sorry I was work (still am for the next hour and a half) but I probably should have specified the rating would in fact be possibly/potentially and not a solid tier.

I’ll add that to the op

 

[Antvasima]

@Kaantantr

Would you be willing to help out a bit further here please?

 

[Kaantantr]

Depends on what kind of a help people are looking for. As I said, we already know from the books that strong Incarnation can be felt by perceptive people. For example, Bercouli felt Shasta's death rush towards Emperor Vecta from the other side of Underworld and also feel him fade away from the world.

The topic as things stand is the feeling of Incarnation, as it has been established that there is no real shaking going on, which is also stated in the OP.

And as I have already said, it is technically possible for everyone to feel the wave of Incarnation, since all the inhabitants of Underworld are connected to the same framework, the Main Visualizer, which is why I stated a "possibility" in this case is not particularly applicable to a feat. Heck, they literally have devices now that can pick up the strength of incarnate abilities (which is what the Dragoncraft pilots on scene were using).

It does not seem like there is a clear goal in mind with the upgrade, just testing the waters to see if anything is possible to do with it. So I'm just following along to see if anyone actually has a point to make from further discussions. And at this point, you guys already know my take on some other people trying to fuel the fire with personal hopes.

 

[Kaantantr]

For further context, I will also add that the world "shakes" when the simulation speed is changed as well, as in people can have a momentary weird feeling when the acceleration multiplier is altered. People can take it how they will, just pointing out that "shaking" is literally due to a lack of a better description.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[CurrySenpai]

For further context, I will also add that the world "shakes" when the simulation speed is changed as well, as in people can have a momentary weird feeling when the acceleration multiplier is altered. People can take it how they will, just pointing out that "shaking" is literally due to a lack of a better description.

Most of your points are mainly talking about the fight between the Kirito and The Abyssal Horror but what about the fight between Kirito and Gabriel? I think it's more believable, especially now that Reki has given some sort of insight into the shaking.

 

[Kaantantr]

Most of your points are mainly talking about the fight between the Kirito and The Abyssal Horror but what about the fight between Kirito and Gabriel? I think it's more believable, especially now that Reki has given some sort of insight into the shaking.

Eh? Not sure what kind of an answer you are expecting from me on this one. All people felt during that fight was a "gentle care" of some sorts when the Night Sky Sword covered the sky which the likes of Leafa and Sinon "felt" it was Kirito's doing. Nobody was even aware that something had been happening until the blanket covered the sky, at which point, people just started praying anyways.

Don't get stuck up on the word choice of "shaking" here. It's more of a "feeling of destability/desyncronization". I'm pretty sure I can just go grab a couple excerpts there are two specific instances for speed change (v14 ending and somewhere in v16 I assume on the top of my mind) and a lot of instances about feeling incarnation (feel free to check Bercouli sensing Shasta or the beginning of Kirito vs PoH). Do let me know if you need them.

 

[CurrySenpai]

You're gonna need to provide citations of people who actually felt an actual "shaking".

Personally, while this may sound rude (trust me that's not my intent) I don't see why we need to find a citation for people feeling the shaking. We have a statement right here from the author (who we know is reliable especially since we've used his own tweets in the past) saying that it in fact shook and that some people felt it.

Depends on what kind of a help people are looking for. As I said, we already know from the books that strong Incarnation can be felt by perceptive people. For example, Bercouli felt Shasta's death rush towards Emperor Vecta from the other side of Underworld and also feel him fade away from the world.

I feel this helps our argument in a way. If Incarnation caused the shaking then it's entirely possible that only people who were perceptive felt it meaning that the chances of finding a citation would be hard (in a story sense) or may be yet to come in a future novel (a reason why it'd be a possibly rating as well)

 

[FallenMaou2234]

It does seem as though there's room for debate here, However if the initial downgrades utilized translated tweets as a precedent I don't see why we should rule them out in this case and if the Calc in the OP gets verified and is accepted then I don't see any problems with the proposal of this thread

So I think I'll agree

 

[Kaantantr]

Personally, while this may sound rude (trust me that's not my intent) I don't see why we need to find a citation for people feeling the shaking. We have a statement right here from the author (who we know is reliable especially since we've used his own tweets in the past) saying that it in fact shook and that some people felt it.

Certainly not rude, no worries. However it comes off intentionally manipulative when you ignore the context of "the shake". It isn't an "in world" shake, it's a sense of desynchronization effect caused by the mismatch between the simulation code base and the main visualizer. It is hard to grasp because we have no such thing in the real world, but think of how you feel when you get up a little too suddenly and have a momentary sense of dizziness, how your perception of reality feels wonky for a second. That's why I recommended the Acceleration Change moments for an example, because they give you a good sense of what kind of a feeling a desync between the codebase and the main visualizer causes. Turns out Subti contacting critter was in late V15, not V16 as I initially recalled.

The moment there is a desync between the simulation codebase and the main visualizer (which is also exactly what happens when Incarnation is used because Incarnation manifests within the main visualizer, whereas the system tries to sync it up with the codebase), you effectively feel a "wonkiness" as the system is trying to figure out "wtf is happening" in a sense and has to keep both sides synchronized.

Now once you get an understanding of that "sense", moving over to the Kirito vs PoH from v18 Lasting.

Asuna gets a sense that she is "being protected by warm, strong, familiar arms". That is not the reality. We know Kirito's veggie body is lying couple dozen meters to the side, so it's not those arms. We know his non-existent right arm is being used as an incarnate arm to create the barrier out of sacred arts. So what she is "feeling" here is a completely abstract sense of "being cared and protected".

That is exactly what the mention of "shaking" or vibrating, or eeriness or whatever word you pick to describe an abstract, non-real phenomenon comes down to. That's why I have been trying to explain that it's not "shaking", but rather an abstract feeling that doesn't exist in the world, but something your Fluctlight feels due to the hardware side of things.

 

[DMUA]

No.

My belief is that Incarnation did it, especially when Reki is talking about "mind systems" and "event rewriting".

... That doesn't make it AP, though. A "system rewrite" doesn't mean crap in that regard.

Like, what level of power does "some people feel this shaking sensation" suggest when it's just warping the system as opposed to actually physically sending force through the air and ground to shake it, exactly?

 

[Antvasima]

So what do you think should be done based on this thread, Kaantantr and DMUA?

 

[DMUA]

The thread should be closed because there's nothing of substance to this.

 

[Kaantantr]

I agree. I do not believe the "sense" is exactly applicable to anything meaningful.

 

[CurrySenpai]

There’s a couple of people who have yet to show up who can probably word things better than me so could we please wait for that?