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Potential Aizen/Yhwach/Ichigo Downgrade

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Actually most of the 7-A Bleach characters are becoming High 7-A to 6-C. And I think stronger ones that scale to Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra are potentially becoming somewhere around High 6-B depending on the Lanza del Relampago calc using the new Las Noches size.
 
Peter1129 said:
Actually most of the 7-A Bleach characters are becoming 6-C. And I think stronger ones that scale to Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra are potentially becoming somewhere around High 6-B depending on the Lanza del Relampago calc.
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That does not matter, there is still a considerable jump from High 6-B to High 6-A. Making everyone High 6-A will likely mess up the scaling, even if High 6-B is accepted.
 
Pretty sure Gremmy and Base Kenpachi are only like 2x baseline High 6-A. So the jump wouldn't be that big depending on the results of Lanza del Relampago.
 
Quick question; the calc for the meteor is the value for destroying it right? And not for creating it?

Would the energy required to create it be less than destroying it?
 
This thread is a mess and should be closed, also the other Admins will not appreacciate the proposed High 6-A upgrade [reminder that Cocoon Aizen is stronger than most weaker Stenritters] and Matthew will say that they favour Bleach too much.
 
It's probably because the reason this downgrade is happening is due to many previous Bleach revisions being put on hold.

Right now Bleach is pretty much like Naruto back when they were undergoing a massive revision.
 
Peter1129 said:
It's probably because the reason this downgrade is happening is due to many previous Bleach revisions being put on hold.
Right now Bleach is pretty much like Naruto back when they were undergoing a massive revision.
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No, the only thing i remember was that the high tier 6 Ceros was rejected back then and they are now 7-A, i'm curious why you hope they will be upgraded again.
 
That is the 6-C to High 6-C one, which should evaluated again and not the High 6-B one. Still the topic is derailed beyond measures, it should be closed.
 
High 6-B isn't for the Cero calc. Somebody say that with the new Las Noches size the Lanza del Relampago calc will potentially be around High 6-B.
 
I don't want the topics I brought up though to be lost because of the derailment. I can't really post my summary of the arguments I had about the downgrade because I need a computer, which I wont have until tomorrow.

Can we just temporarily close it until then?
 
That still doesn't justify why all the Shinigami's in the war that can fight with the lower class Stenritter like Meninas should far stronger than Ulquiorra final form and Aizen weaker Hogyoku forms, it does not even specify it that was Pre or Post Training Base Kenpachi.
 
Well not everybody in the war scales. Only some of the stronger ones scale.

For example Royd (or was it Lloyd) the fake Yhwach who defeated TYBW Pre-Training Kenpachi with his eyepatch off who is stronger than Kenpachi Azashiro who is stronger than Cien Granz who is on par with Full Hollow Ichigo who stomped Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra.

Meninas and some of the other Sternritters was also able to tank attacks from Bazz-B who was stated to have flames capable of offsetting Yamamoto's flame.
 
If the High 6-B stuff is rejected, the same will happen to the High 6-A upgrade, which further derailed the thread, i will close this as requested by FinalOrder.
 
Summary of Argument:

First and foremost, I made this thread to talk about Base Yhwach, True Shikai Ichigo and EoS Aizen's tiers, said tiers are High 6-A and 5-C respectively. Several Important arguments, that are in part relevant were brought up, those being Yamamoto's Bankai and who scales to it. Aside from that, nothing else should be being discussed.

  • Preface: Second, I want to preface this summary for those who will read it by saying, my arguments solely stem from feats shown and statements made. The downgrades I'm bringing to light here are based solely on those factors where there is a lack of feats and statements for characters, in addition to this certain actions characters have taken in the manga are being debated on.
____________________________________

BASE YHWACH:

So, when I started this thread, at the time I didn't not know what was stated in the novel. When I initially questioned "Why Yhwach was scaling to High 6-A with the reasoning that was on his profile being "Far Above Shikai Kenpachi."", Base Yhwach had no feats or statements scaling him to Kenpachi, in any chapter of the manga. So understandably, I was like, how is he scaling to High 6-A then? he has no feats, statements nor has he fought anyone who scales from Kenpachi, whom were in the same boat as him, but then the Novel statements was brought up.

  • Yhwach in the past, before he could use "The Almighty", was stated to have been the only Quincy capable of defeating Gremmy (Which, based on the feats of the Manga, I would say is contradicted in that Gerard stomped Shikai Kenpachi when Gremmy struggled against him). In addition to this statement it is said that Yhwach himself sealed Gremmy away in fact.
Thus, all things considered, based on the Novel, Yhwach scales from Gremmy, whom is High 6-A. My quams about Yhwach's tier was answerd, but the language of "At Least or Far Above" is a no go. For starters, Gremmy and Shikai Kenpachi are still baseline High 6-A comparatively while in the double digit "Teens" of Petatons and saying Base Yhwach is "Far Above" the likes of Gremmy or Kenpachi is just not true considering the novel only states Yhwach can defeat Gremmy and has sealed him away with no mention of difficulty, thus that part is an arbitrary assumption.

TRUE SHIKAI ICHIGO

About True Shikai Ichigo, last I remembered, he himself was scaling above Shikai Kenpachi because of the comparison to Dangai Ichigo. I don't know when it changed, but the reason Dangai Ichigo and Aizen were scaling above Kenpachi was because of the "Trascendant" thing. I proved this false based on feats and portrayal in the Manga from Two Separate and consistant things:

  • Isshin, Kisuke and Yorichi vs Aizen and Aizen vs Dangai Ichigo: The reason why Dangai and Aizen were scaled above Kenpachi was because it was stated by Aizen that Lower Dimensional Beings could not interact with High Dimensional Beings, yet this was proven wrong as Aizen, while being on a lower dimension than even Dangai Ichigo could still harm him. And Isshin and Yoruichi could still harm Chrysallis Aizen while not being on the same Dimension as he supposedly is, Here, Here, and Here. Thus proving being transcendance doesn't automatically mean you're above other beings. In addition to this, True Shikai Ichigo, despite being stated to be comparable to Dangai Ichigo, isn't a "Trascendant being" as he can still be sensed by lower beings, Such as Rukia.
All of this proves that A Shinigami can be equal to a "Trascendant" as Ichigo isn't trascendant. Dangai and Aizen have no feats scaling them to Kenpachi and True Shikai Ichigo has no feats, statements, context or implications, scaling him to Kenpachi either. So he wouldn't scale to Kenpachi. Now this is where the debate about characters actions come into play. While Ichigo has nothing to scale him directly to Kenpachi, it's being argued he scales from Base Yhwach because of he stopped Yhwach from Attacking and Pushed him back with a Getsuga Tenshou (Ref. Chapter 618, Pages 9 - 15)

  • The Specific argument states Ichigo physically held Yhwach Back and pushed him back with a Getsuga Tenshou, which is why he scales to High 6-A, but I don't agree with this. In the chapter, we see Yhwach rasie his hand and Ichigo grabs his wrist. Yhwach at no point from that moment on attempts to force Ichigo to let him go. Ichigo is holding his wrist (And based on the reiatsu or whatever, we can clearly see this moment is happening very fast). Ichigo did not block an attack and he's only holding the wrist of a man not attempting to force him to let him go. In addition to this, while Ichigo did push him back, Yhwach is unscratched from a point blank Getsuga Tenshou. It did nothing.
So my argument was, how is Ichigo scaling to High 6-A Yhwach when:

  • He did not block an attack, only prevented Yhwach from attacking by grabbing his wrist as he was raising his hand.
  • Yhwach did not attempt to force him to let go nor is he struggling against Ichigo physically
  • Yhwach is completely unscratched by a Point Black Serious Getsu Tenshou from TSI
I have to get to class, but i'll do Aizen Later.
 
>Yhwach at no point from that moment on attempts to force Ichigo to let him go. Ichigo is holding his wrist (And based on the reiatsu or whatever, we can clearly see this moment is happening very fast).

I am a lot busy these days so I can't comment on this as much as I'd like but the statement in bold above is quite false ..what happened was an intense arm wrestling with an incredible amount of force involved.. What you actually think it's reiatsu is likely blood from the damage ichigo receives from the pressure of just holding back Yhwach arm.you can see the damage on ichigo's arm afterwards and the bloodstai smeared on his face during the struggle was shown for a while,looking at it closely, the damage is similar to when ichigo tanked Aizen's fragor,since this shikai ichigo is scaled to dangai ichigo.....so basically what you refer as yhwach attempt not to force ichigo is equal/comparable to Aizen's fragor nuke.

>Yhwach's Reiatsu is strong enough force Ichigo to make actions he would not commit otherwise.

About this it's most likely a papa Quincy thing/fate manipulationnot a reiatsu bullying thing

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EDIT:

Yhwach in the past, before he could use "The Almighty", was stated to have been the only Quincy capable of defeating Gremmy (Which, based on the feats of the Manga, I would say is contradicted in that Gerard stomped Shikai Kenpachi when Gremmy struggled against him).

Inaccurate your statement is, it's not contradictory in any way,when Kenpachi first came to the scene he was also matching/stomping Gerard, only Gerard due to the miracle(his schrift) kept evolving and eventually surpassed Kenpachi.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Lol Yhwach's reiatsu is in every quincy of course he can control the will of Ichigo he isn't called their father for no reason.
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You realize that if Ichigo was in the same tier as Yhwach, this shouldn't happen right? And Yhwach clearly states he imbued his reiatsu into that sword and it forced Ichigo to kill Reio, evident by the Blut Vene marking that appeared over his body when he grabbed the sword.

So it's not some Quincy Father fuckery, lol.
 
Blut doesn't control other people,it's likely it appeared on his arm to have enough power to pierce the king.

You even ignored the other pages where Yhwach states his will is connected to Ichigo's will,he has Yhwach's blood in him it's why he did it.His blood resonated with Ichigo's quincy heritage.

0615-007.png
 
TheFinalOrder said:
BASE YHWACH:

  • Yhwach in the past, before he could use "The Almighty", was stated to have been the only Quincy capable of defeating Gremmy (Which, based on the feats of the Manga, I would say is contradicted in that Gerard stomped Shikai Kenpachi when Gremmy struggled against him). In addition to this statement it is said that Yhwach himself sealed Gremmy away in fact.
Click to expand...
Gerard would not be able to defeat Gremmy. Gerard's ability allows him to turn damage into power and Gerard was brought to a point by Byakuya on par with Shikai Kenpachi. So a Base Gerard vs a Base Gremmy will be a 7-A vs a High 6-A. Gremmy could put that Gerard into space, turn his bones to cookies, erase him like he did to Guanel Lee and etc. So no, it was not contradicted in the manga.

Thus, all things considered, based on the Novel, Yhwach scales from Gremmy, whom is High 6-A. My quams about Yhwach's tier was answerd, but the language of "At Least or Far Above" is a no go. For starters, Gremmy and Shikai Kenpachi are still baseline High 6-A comparatively while in the double digit "Teens" of Petatons and saying Base Yhwach is "Far Above" the likes of Gremmy or Kenpachi is just not true considering the novel only states Yhwach can defeat Gremmy and has sealed him away with no mention of difficulty, thus that part is an arbitrary assumption.
We know Base Yhwach is far above Gremmy due to the fact that Base Yhwach literally gave Gremmy his powers and more to others while also still being able to lock Gremmy away without issue. But I'm glad you have understood that Base Yhwach does have the High 6-A tier at least.

TRUE SHIKAI ICHIGO

About True Shikai Ichigo, last I remembered, he himself was scaling above Shikai Kenpachi because of the comparison to Dangai Ichigo. I don't know when it changed, but the reason Dangai Ichigo and Aizen were scaling above Kenpachi was because of the "Trascendant" thing. I proved this false based on feats and portrayal in the Manga from Two Separate and consistant things:

  • Isshin, Kisuke and Yorichi vs Aizen and Aizen vs Dangai Ichigo: The reason why Dangai and Aizen were scaled above Kenpachi was because it was stated by Aizen that Lower Dimensional Beings could not interact with High Dimensional Beings, yet this was proven wrong as Aizen, while being on a lower dimension than even Dangai Ichigo could still harm him. And Isshin and Yoruichi could still harm Chrysallis Aizen while not being on the same Dimension as he supposedly is, Here, Here, and Here. Thus proving being transcendance doesn't automatically mean you're above other beings.
Chrysalis Aizen wasn't transcendent, Aizen after the shell came off is transcendent, the Chrysalis' purpose was to make him the next level.

In addition to this, True Shikai Ichigo, despite being stated to be comparable to Dangai Ichigo, isn't a "Trascendant being" as he can still be sensed by lower beings, Such as Rukia.
Aizen explains to us that transcendent beings can be felt by those lower if they control their Reiatsu.

All of this proves that A Shinigami can be equal to a "Trascendant" as Ichigo isn't trascendant. Dangai and Aizen have no feats scaling them to Kenpachi and True Shikai Ichigo has no feats, statements, context or implications, scaling him to Kenpachi either. So he wouldn't scale to Kenpachi.
I can understand why someone is confused about Transcendence, it was not fully explained upon.

So my argument was, how is Ichigo scaling to High 6-A Yhwach when:

  • He did not block an attack, only prevented Yhwach from attacking by grabbing his wrist as he was raising his hand.
  • Yhwach did not attempt to force him to let go nor is he struggling against Ichigo physically
  • Yhwach is completely unscratched by a Point Black Serious Getsu Tenshou from TSI


  • The thing people don't realize about this instance is that Yhwach took no damage because Yhwach countered the Getsuga with his Black Reiatsu attacks he normally uses. Seriously, it's a black warpy energy that leaves the building, that is nothing like a Shikai Ichigo Getsuga that is not black and is shaped like a curve only. It's Yhwach's Black Reiatsu and we know it's Yhwach because Ichigo is injured after the clash.
 
I think @Imade makes sense even more so than I,and I can't nor have the time at the moment to wall text like he does, So what he said
 
TheFinalOrder said:
. . .
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I think FO made a pretty good summary. One thing I will like to address is a mistake with Gremmy:

1. The novel is not canon. If it contradicts the manga it is invalid. Its good support though.

2. As I understand it from someone citing the novel, they said YHWH could "defeat" gremmy, not that he was more powerful. That's an important distinction given his abilities:

YHWH can just use holly selection on Gremmy

If this is Almighty YHWH that comes with a ton of hax

If this is not Almighty YHWH, he can "open his eyes" early and mess with all the stern ritter including Gremmy.

3. The novel does not specify which version of YHWH, least as far as I'm aware from other's using it as a reference.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Because it's Blut Vene that Yhwach used and it's the blood that is being manipulated so long as Quincy Blood is in Ichigo.
Click to expand...
But Yhwach can presumably turn it off... no?
 
@Dr.Fix You're literally the only person who still thinks the Novel isn't canon even after the interview.

The novel doesn't specify but we know it's likely referring to Base Yhwach since he couldn't use the Almighty until his fight with Ichibei.
 
The novel is not cano. If it contradicts the manga it is invalid. Its good support though

agree If it contradicts the manga it is invalid

i think some of us forgot that manga>>>>>>>>>>>>ln/anime etc
 
1.) The post war novels are canon. They are co authored by Kubo and Narita

2.) Yhwach was the one to give him that power in the 1st place and sealed him.

3.) It's base Yhwach. The only ones who fought Yhwach above that state was Yama, Ichigo,Aizen and Ichibe.

Also saying Yhwach straight up forced Ichigo cuz he was stronger implies he could do this with anyone that touched his sword when that's not true at all. It was successful because Ichigo is a quincy. He even says this.


That said I agree with Imade
 
Omimi said:
The novel is not cano. If it contradicts the manga it is invalid. Its good support though
agree If it contradicts the manga it is invalid

i think some of us forgot that manga>>>>>>>>>>>>ln/anime etc
Click to expand...
You do know the novels are sequels to bleach right??so please stop.
 
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