Potential Aizen/Yhwach/Ichigo Downgrade

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The original novels seem to be canon. Adaptations novels aren't canon.

 

[Peter1129]

@Omimi We've already been over this the original novels are canon. And these statements came from Can't Fear Your Own World which is the direct continuation of the Bleach manga.

 

[Damage3245]

Granting someone a ability doesn't make you necessarily superior, does it?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Granting someone a ability doesn't make you necessarily superior, does it?

Where exactly are you going with this?

 

[Danny1112]

. . .

I think FO made a pretty good summary. One thing I will like to address is a mistake with Gremmy:
1. The novel is not canon. If it contradicts the manga it is invalid. Its good support though.

2. As I understand it from someone citing the novel, they said YHWH could "defeat" gremmy, not that he was more powerful. That's an important distinction given his abilities:

YHWH can just use holly selection on Gremmy

If this is Almighty YHWH that comes with a ton of hax

If this is not Almighty YHWH, he can "open his eyes" early and mess with all the stern ritter including Gremmy.

3. The novel does not specify which version of YHWH, least as far as I'm aware from other's using it as a reference.

>The novels are sequels to the manga dude.if I recall yhwach didn't have the Almighty at that time,it's the yhwach from the past,the one who got defeated by yamji if I recall,the novel is referring to the past,it's not a current thing.

 

[AppleLord]

We can wait before saying the adaptation novels aren't canon. Even when filler became canon. But even if we get a name drop, <only the ? is canon> and not the whole thing.

this is why I hate you guys ovo

 

[Peter1129]

We can wait before saying the adaptation novels aren't canon. Even when filler became canon. But even if we get a name drop, <only the ? is canon> and not the whole thing.

this is why I hate you guys ovo

I mean adaptation novels are like it's name suggests just adaptations of the movie. The filler Zanpakutos became canon by having parts of their background changed (Basically pulling a DBS Broly). And Fade to Black never had anything to indicate it being canon unlike Memories of Nobody which has some story elements that were mentioned in both the manga and the novel.

 

[Dr.Fix]

The novel is not cano. If it contradicts the manga it is invalid. Its good support though
agree If it contradicts the manga it is invalid

i think some of us forgot that manga>>>>>>>>>>>>ln/anime etc

See Peter I'm not the only one ;-) Also the author of a novel agrees too if you read the interview.

But that is neither here nor there. No point in arguing it in this thread unless someone wants to post exactly what it says about Gremmy/YHWH from the novel.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

The original novels seem to be canon. Adaptations novels aren't canon.

This. Adaption Novels have no statement nor interviews about them. Original Novels are co-authored by Kubo with the same 2 other authors. There have been interviews and statements from them about how the Novels are canon.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

But Yhwach can presumably turn it off... no?

Turning off Blut Vene that inside another opponent? It's literally his veins, blood and Reiatsu in Ichigo. He can't turn it off, but he can pull it out I guess, but that isn't shown.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

It's prob a form of willpower manipulation.

 

[Zzsax]

I think "Almighty gg" also had a play in that scenario because he just couldn't stop talking about his eyes and Fate and Ichigo will do whatever he Wills.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@IMade I disagree with you on four things:

• Granting someone abilities doesn't make you "Far Above them" Saying Yhwach is Far above Gremmy based on the fact he gave Gremmy his power is arbitrary. Yhwach > Gremmy because of the statements, not granting power and certainly not "Far above".
• Chrysallis Aizen is Trascendant. Isshin, Yoruichi and Kisuke can't sense him and Aizen confirms it himself before Ichigo Mugetsu's him.
• True Shikai Ichigo stopped Yhwach raising his hand. Hard pressed to say pressed to call that a High 6-A attack feat when Yhwach wasn't even thrusting. In addition, Ichigo stopped an attack meant to kill Mimihagi. That doesn't mean it was a High 6-A attack. Mimihagi is Unknown in AP and Yhwach stomps it casually anyways. So Ichigo scaling to him is still shakey. I think Possibly High 6-A is fair as Yhwach blocked his attack and Ichigo is Injured, which i did not catch before.
• Ichigo had no reason to restrain his power, so I disagree with the notion they could sense him because he was holding back.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Wasn't Dangai and Aizen Country level before? Also, the Ryod and Haschwalth scaling to Yama radiated heat issue.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Except in the case of Bleach "The Almighty" is the greatest power,except until the Antithesis grows over an unquantifable amount of time.They make it very clear that it's above everything else.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@IMade
I disagree with you on four things:

• Granting someone abilities doesn't make you "Far Above them" Saying Yhwach is Far above Gremmy based on the fact he gave Gremmy his power is arbitrary. Yhwach > Gremmy because of the statements, not granting power and certainly not "Far above".

Not only did Yhwach grant Gremmy his powers, Yhwach was still more powerful to a point he could just seal Gremmy away. That's far above to me. I guess it's a difference of opinion there. Anyways, Yhwach is only labeled as High 6-A at base, not anything else.

*Chrysallis Aizen is Trascendant. Isshin, Yoruichi and Kisuke can't sense him and Aizen confirms it himself before Ichigo Mugetsu's him.
The point of the Chrysalis form is that Aizen is evolving to reach Transcendence. It's why they could still put some scratches on him as he hasn't fully reached Transcendence.

*True Shikai Ichigo stopped Yhwach raising his hand. Hard pressed to say pressed to call that a High 6-A attack feat when Yhwach wasn't even thrusting. In addition, Ichigo stopped an attack meant to kill Mimihagi. That doesn't mean it was a High 6-A attack. Mimihagi is Unknown in AP and Yhwach stomps it casually anyways. So Ichigo scaling to him is still shakey. I think Possibly High 6-A is fair as Yhwach blocked his attack and Ichigo is Injured, which i did not catch before.
You would need to prove that Yhwach didn't use a High 6-A attack on Mimihagi, because Ichigo does stop Yhwach's arm and the attack since we literally see the Black Reiatsu dissipate. I would agree Yhwach is going all out because he was mad at Mimihagi, the fact that Mimihagi was immune to Almighty, that Mimihagi was helping Shinigami and that he was stopping his plan.

*Ichigo had no reason to restrain his power, so I disagree with the notion they could sense him because he was holding back.
A person not restraining their power would disintegrate a lower being, Aizen and others. Ichigo would kill Orihime, Chad and Ganju as they walked up to Yhwach and during the fight with Yhwach if he didn't.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@IMade

• Yes, Base Yhwach is High 6-A and he scales above Gremmy. We simply do just disagree on the "Far Above" part. That can be discussed at lesiure as it isn't the most important aspect here.
• About Chrysallis Aizen, he is transcendant. For starters, nothing is stated about Aizen"not" being transcendant in the Chrysallis form. It is actually the other way around: 1.)Reiatsu can't be sensed by lower beings 2.)Is literally confirmed by Aizen to have been Transcendant in the Manga (I'll bring the scan). Chrysallis Aizen exhibits all the qualities of a "Transcendant Being" and if you are going to say he wasn't "Transcendant" because they still injured him, well, the Same can be said about Dangai Ichigo who was harmed by Fragor.
• After giving it Much thought, I'll concede to Ichigo not scaling to Yhwac, but his Reasoning should be changed.

AP Proposal: "High 6-A (Prevented an Attack from Yhwach meant to Kill Mimihagi and forced him to Block his attack)"

^Ichigo didn't really physically hold Yhwach back. He just stopped him from raising his arm and Yhwach didn't offer any resistance. But it's pointless because Ichigo is scaling anyways, I just think my proposed Reasoning is better than the current."

As far as True Shikai Ichigo, Not from miles away, no. Not to mention that makes no sense in the context of the war. True Shikai Ichigo isn't transcendant and there is no reason for him to have held back against anyone. There are multiple reasons as to why he isn't transcendabt, which your argument goes against:

• Ichigo rushing as fast as he can to Soul Society can be sensed by weaker beings from miles away (No reason for him to be holding back).
• In Ichigo vs Yhwach, his Merged Hollow form reasing power and not killing Orihime
• The Quincy ******** on him
• In Arrancar Arc, him being able to sense Chrysallis Aizen when Kisuke, Isshin, Yoruichi couldn't yet still being sensed and weaker than others

I can go on. Ichigo is not Transcendant in the War Arc, too many instances go against it and they are cinsistant.

 

[Omimi]

Transcendant or not they still got hurt by non- Transcendant being so

as TFO said(which is true) Transcendant does not scale from kenpachi

there are no statement or feats to scale anyway

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I never made the Transcendence argument, I've solely just been explaining what it is since most people seem confused and don't understand it. If we based all of Transcendency on "Reiatsu/Reiryoku couldn't be felt" then Ichibei and Kenpachi would also be Tanscendent. Yhwach's Reiatsu was still able to be felt when he was the literal sole God Tier.

It's not that Transcendency is inconsistent, it's that it's not explained upon. We know Transcendent beings can lower their Reiatsu if they want and we know that characters above previous Transcendent beings still have feelable Reiatsu (EoS Aizen is superior to Hogyoku Aizen who is Transcendent, True Shikai Ichigo is superior to Dangai Ichigo who was Transcendent, Several keys of Yhwach were superior to Transcendent characters yet his Reiatsu could be felt). Arguing through Reiatsu being felt is not solid grounds.

I disagree on the proposal for High 6-A (the agreement we do have is enough though) as I do believe Ichigo held back Yhwach since he had to stop Yhwach's motion of attacking Mimihagi and Ichigo did break up the Black Reiatsu Yhwach was going to attack with.

• Ichigo rushing as fast as he can to Soul Society can be sensed by weaker beings from miles away (No reason for him to be holding back).
• The Quincy ******** on him

It would be unwise for him to not lower his Reiatsu here since he was coming to Seireitei and immediately near allies.

• In Ichigo vs Yhwach, his Merged Hollow form reasing power and not killing Orihime

Why would he not control his Reiatsu here? He would kill his friend.

• In Arrancar Arc, him being able to sense Chrysallis Aizen when Kisuke, Isshin, Yoruichi couldn't yet still being sensed and weaker than others

Technically Ichigo always had Transcendence as he had Zangetsu and Old Man Zangetsu in him together. Both give him Transcendence. Him being able to sense a Transcended being makes sense since his Transcendent stats are what is limited to him at this point.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

How the hell is Final Getsuga Tensho Ichigo and Hogyoku Final Form Aizen even Multi-Continental+ level when all they have shown is large island+ level feats? That's so bs. Can someone please fix this powerscaling?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

kek

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

How the hell is Final Getsuga Tensho Ichigo and Hogyoku Final Form Aizen even Multi-Continental+ level when all they have shown is large island+ level feats? That's so bs. Can someone please fix this powerscaling?

they scale above Kenpachi

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This thread is warped to high hell now...

 

[PaChi2]

This thread is warped to high hell now...

Oh, is that so?

 

[AppleLord]

Transcendents in Bleach is like God ki. You cannot feel the other person's reiatsu unless you are transcendents or he lowers his power. BUT you can still hurt and fight them if you're stronger or equal in power.

 

[Dr.Fix]

This thread is warped to high hell now...

This feels like deja vu. At this point I fear the aim may be to devolve this thread and any downgrade threads to get it shut down. Such a result would suit the one side just as much as a rejection.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That's right Dr.Fix were conspiring lmao.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Aizen specifically explains how Transcendance works in Bleach.

Now, all of these arguments saying Ichigo and all these other yahoo's are "Trascendant" but just holding back is baseless. I don't mean to be rude or insulting but it's seriously all just head canon. I don't want to argue with your opinions about what Ichigo is "Possibly" doing. You guys are making the claim that Ichigo is Transcendant when context and what is literally consistently portrayed goes against that notion.

You are all assuming things with no proof making the assumption that because a Trascendant "can" hold their power back in order to be sensed and interacted with by others, that is exactly what is Ichigo doing. I'm sorry but that's pure bull shit. I don't subscribe to that because it's nonsense.

@IMade

Arguing through reiatsu being felt is exactly what is the basis for Trascendance in Bleach. Context goes against your argument about Ichigo holding Back because of his friends when his friends are being killed in a war setting against people who, not long before, took a massive shit on Soul Society. It makes 0 sense for him to hold back and he is definitely shown not holding back. What's proven through the war arc (And all of Bleach since the mechanic was introduced) is that Transcendance doesn't make you stronger than everyone.

 

[AppleLord]

I agree with the notion of Transcendent beings NOT been stronger than everyone else, but Aizen was having a mental break down, and denying that Ichigo could even be stronger than him. He was puling things out of his arse, so I don't believe anything Aizen said after becoming transcendence.

Edit: OOPS. Fixed.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That scan you posted is a meme,he is literally saying Ichigo is possibly an entire dimension above him.He isn't even sure himself so how is that proof of how transcendence works? (not like anyone will accept what Aizen is implying anyways).

And Ichigo being transcendent isn't head canon at all,unless you think Yhwach is a massive idiot considering he is the one who stated he reclaimed his original power used to defeat Aizen,and you know this power was his Mugetsu form correct?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

AIZEN:

Note: Sorry this is a day late, I didn't have enough time to go over everything yesterday, with class and group projects getting in the way and all. So this is basically part 2 of my summary, dealing with Aizen and Yamamoto stuff that was brought up that I feel is tied to this:

Summary: My Argument against Aizen Scaling to 5-C Yhwach was simply put, it's unquantifiable how much energy he was using. Yhwach was just as casual with Aizen as he was with True Shikai Ichigo and he has no feats of fighting Yhwach like Hollow-Merged nor the statements soidifying it like here nor the feats of Bankai Ichigo Harming him....or the statements solidifying it like here (You begin to see a pattern).

Aizen was just Casually Stomped by Yhwach (Too many instances to post it all but Chapter 683 of Bleach). Yet you have people claiming Aizen is 5-C but using AoE as an Argument based on this Scan:


When AoE =/= AP. Even if Yhwach did more against Aizen, he is still Extremely Casual in this fight. Nothing Suggests Yhwach is using 5-C AP against Aizen and Casually Baseline High 6-A to 5-C is more than a 100x value.
You guys are claiming Aizen > True Shikai Ichigo when at best your argument can unquantifiably put Aizen over TSI, but what says he's compared Hollow-Merged just because Yhwach casually used greater AoE against him than with TSI?

 

[Bobybobster]

you do realise the black stuff is yhwachs reiatsu right? So a bigger aoe means he put in more of his reiatsu.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

YAMAMOTO:

Yama-jii is High 6-A with his Bankai. It is specifically stated he fought Yhwach in the past and defeated him with it. No quams here. The issue is how people like Ryod and Haschwalth are incorrectly scaling to High 6-A because of it. Ryod and Haschwalth only tanked the Radiated heat from Yama's ZnT: West, which reaches up to Sun Core temeratures, with Blut Vene. The problem is:

• The Radiated Heat is not High 6-A. This can be calced and has been calced several times and consistantly yielded vastly lower results. Ranging from Tier 8 to Country Level.

• Yamamoto is a man sized individual, he's not the size of planetary objects or stars. While his reiatsu simulates Sun Core Temperatures . He does not radiate the same amount of energy as the sun because of his vastly smaller size.

• Ryod could not do anything to Yamamoto while he was in Bankai, he could only evade. He couldn't touch West and he had to evade his sword at all times. Straight forward and he was One Shotted by a ranged Slash, so...yeah.

• Haschwalth did not fight Yamamoto. Was only in his presence.

Therefore, nothing scales them to High 6-A. And they are only that high with Blut Vene.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

you do realise the black stuff is yhwachs reiatsu right? So a bigger aoe means he put in more of his reiatsu.

Read what I said and try again....

 

[Bobybobster]

you do realise the black stuff is yhwachs reiatsu right? So a bigger aoe means he put in more of his reiatsu.

Read what I said and try again....

I did, yhwach never used that much reiatsu vs ichigo.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

you do realise the black stuff is yhwachs reiatsu right? So a bigger aoe means he put in more of his reiatsu.

Read what I said and try again....

I did, yhwach never used that much reiatsu vs ichigo.

"Even if Yhwach did more against Aizen, he is still Extremely Casual in this fight. Nothing Suggests Yhwach is using 5-C AP against Aizen and Casually Baseline High 6-A to 5-C is more than a 100x value.

You guys are claiming Aizen > True Shikai Ichigo when at best your argument can unquantifiably put Aizen over TSI, but what says he's compared Hollow-Merged just because Yhwach casually used greater AoE against him than with TSI?"

 

[Dr.Fix]

YAMAMOTO:
Yama-jii is High 6-A with his Bankai. It is specifically stated he fought Yhwach in the past and defeated him with it. No quams here. The issue is how people like Ryod and Haschwalth are incorrectly scaling to High 6-A because of it. Ryod and Haschwalth only tanked the Radiated heat from Yama's ZnT: West, which reaches up to Sun Core temeratures, with Blut Vene. The problem is:

• The Radiated Heat is not High 6-A. This can be calced and has been calced several times and consistantly yielded vastly lower results. Ranging from Tier 8 to Country Level.

• Yamamoto is a man sized individual, he's not the size of planetary objects or stars. While his reiatsu simulates Sun Core Temperatures . He does not radiate the same amount of energy as the sun because of his vastly smaller size.

• Ryod could not do anything to Yamamoto while he was in Bankai, he could only evade. He couldn't touch West and he had to evade his sword at all times. Straight forward and he was One Shotted by a ranged Slash, so...yeah.

• Haschwalth did not fight Yamamoto. Was only in his presence.

Therefore, nothing scales them to High 6-A. And they are only that high with Blut Vene.

Check your source mate. This never happened and Yama VS YH has been done to death. I could go over this in detail if you like but rather not here. Yama-ji has his own calculation to use.

 

[Bobybobster]

you do realise the black stuff is yhwachs reiatsu right? So a bigger aoe means he put in more of his reiatsu.

Read what I said and try again....

I did, yhwach never used that much reiatsu vs ichigo.

"Even if Yhwach did more against Aizen, he is still Extremely Casual in this fight. Nothing Suggests Yhwach is using 5-C AP against Aizen and Casually Baseline High 6-A to 5-C is more than a 100x value.
You guys are claiming Aizen > True Shikai Ichigo when at best your argument can unquantifiably put Aizen over TSI, but what says he's compared Hollow-Merged just because Yhwach casually used greater AoE against him than with TSI?"

yhwachs 5-c shit was also casual.

We only know aizen took the first attack, afterwards aizen could've been standing idle somewhere whilst yhwach was getting fked by ks.

Aizen was selected as a war potential for his reiatsu.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

you do realise the black stuff is yhwachs reiatsu right? So a bigger aoe means he put in more of his reiatsu.

Read what I said and try again....

I did, yhwach never used that much reiatsu vs ichigo.

"Even if Yhwach did more against Aizen, he is still Extremely Casual in this fight. Nothing Suggests Yhwach is using 5-C AP against Aizen and Casually Baseline High 6-A to 5-C is more than a 100x value.
You guys are claiming Aizen > True Shikai Ichigo when at best your argument can unquantifiably put Aizen over TSI, but what says he's compared Hollow-Merged just because Yhwach casually used greater AoE against him than with TSI?"

yhwachs 5-c shit was also casual.
We only know aizen took the first attack, afterwards aizen could've been standing idle somewhere whilst yhwach was getting fked by ks.

Aizen was selected as a war potential for his reiatsu.

Yhwach was off screen so you can't really say it was casual bruh. And that doesn't change anything if it was.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

YAMAMOTO:Yama-jii is High 6-A with his Bankai. It is specifically stated he fought Yhwach in the past and defeated him with it. No quams here. The issue is how people like Ryod and Haschwalth are incorrectly scaling to High 6-A because of it. Ryod and Haschwalth only tanked the Radiated heat from Yama's ZnT: West, which reaches up to Sun Core temeratures, with Blut Vene. The problem is:

• The Radiated Heat is not High 6-A. This can be calced and has been calced several times and consistantly yielded vastly lower results. Ranging from Tier 8 to Country Level.

• Yamamoto is a man sized individual, he's not the size of planetary objects or stars. While his reiatsu simulates Sun Core Temperatures . He does not radiate the same amount of energy as the sun because of his vastly smaller size.

• Ryod could not do anything to Yamamoto while he was in Bankai, he could only evade. He couldn't touch West and he had to evade his sword at all times. Straight forward and he was One Shotted by a ranged Slash, so...yeah.

• Haschwalth did not fight Yamamoto. Was only in his presence.

Therefore, nothing scales them to High 6-A. And they are only that high with Blut Vene.

Check your source mate. This never happened and Yama VS YH has been done to death. I could go over this in detail if you like but rather not here. Yama-ji has his own calculation to use.

Link.