Possible Zamasu upgrade

[Ultima_Reality]

Fair enough, I concede on the point about the Angels, but there is still the fact that the Timelines have their own versions of the Gods of Destruction, and Zeno, the one who is quite explicitly said to be the entity which rules over, and exists above the Twelve Universes.

The Universes also being enclosed Spaces doesn't mean much either, their appearance doesn't define their whole nature.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

One universe is Low 2-C; the distance between the Living World and the Other World is physically finite, they are just sealed away from each other.

^this

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

One universe is Low 2-C; the distance between the Living World and the Other World is physically finite, they are just sealed away from each other.

If the distance is physically infinite wouldn't that result in high 3-A?

 

[Kepekley23]

I said physically ''finite''.

 

[Kepekley23]

Fair enough, I concede on the point about the Angels, but there is still the fact that the Timelines have their own versions of the Gods of Destruction, and Zeno, the one who is quite explicitly said to be the entity which rules over, and exists above the Twelve Universes.

The Universes also being enclosed Spaces doesn't mean much either, their appearance doesn't define their whole nature.

That still doesn't mean much. It could easily be that the timelines are each composed of smaller timespaces, wherein the universes reside.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I said physically finite.

Brain malfunction

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, the point of mentioning the Lookout or the RoSaT isn't to make universes 2-C (even if it is to some people), but to prove that even within one single universal globe, there are multiple space-times - and all of them are still affected whenever a new timeline is created, showing the timelines being composed of not just one timespace, but multiple cobbled together - thus meaning that the timelines also encompassing other universes doesn't prove anything - is a very plausible possibility.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Fair enough, then. I concede.

 

[Kepekley23]

Additionally, we're also informed via classic DB that the Kami Lookout itself is located on an alternate space that is only linked to the living world when the Power Pole acts as the bond between the two - even then, we know that Kami still responded to King Yemma and the four Kais before that period, and the matters of the Other World, which means that the Lookout's dimension is located inside the Universe 7 globe.

Also, unrelated to the discussion but just saiyan, this also applies to non-canon Dragon Ball games as well, due to Gohan-Boo's Vice Shout statements regarding alternate timelines crushing the living world.

 

[Mickey1940]

I'm going to just grab some popcorn and sit down over there...

 

[Xerkser500]

Additionally, we're also informed via classic DB that the Kami Lookout itself is located on an alternate space that is only linked to the living world when the Power Pole acts as the bond between the two

I have my own issues i'll want to point out myself in a bit but before I do, where has this been stated before?

I don't remember the Kami Lookout ever being stated to do this, but if its from classic DB, it could just be me not remembering that early on.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Xerkser500

The Daizenshuu states as much, and I'm fairly sure it's directly implied when Goku puts the Power Pole in the hole meant for it:

Kami-sama's Temple

• Area: B-1

• Special Characteristics: The temple where the Earth's god and his attendant Mister Popo live. It seems to float in the air. This palace is in a separate dimension from the Earth, and only materializes in this world when it is linked to Karin Tower by the Nyoibo. In the lower part of the temple are complex, maze-like passageways, and on the very bottom is the Room of Time and Spirit.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

As always, I have to agree with Kep here. I think we have reached a consensus on why 2-C is legit, since Ultima conceded - but I disagree with this upgrade since Zamasu was only going to become 2-C over a stretched out period of time.

 

[Mickey1940]

Question

Why are people contemplaining nerfong Zen'o to Low 2C? He destroyed 6 universes outright in the past

 

[Antoniofer]

In what moment is not linked to the Karin Tower? I mean, it separated once in DBS, but it didn't seems to be invisible or inaccesible to anyone; and iirc people can normally go there by normal flight or flying vehicles.

Alao, give a little tr;dr, aside from all universe share the same space-time what other thing is being discussed?

 

[Xerkser500]

@Xerkser500
The Daizenshuu states as much, and I'm fairly sure it's directly implied when Goku puts the Power Pole in the hole meant for it:

Kami-sama's Temple

• Area: B-1

• Special Characteristics: The temple where the Earth's god and his attendant Mister Popo live. It seems to float in the air. This palace is in a separate dimension from the Earth, and only materializes in this world when it is linked to Karin Tower by the Nyoibo. In the lower part of the temple are complex, maze-like passageways, and on the very bottom is the Room of Time and Spirit.

Wouldn't this still mean the dimension of the Kami Lookout is still physically apart of U7 since it can be physically connected by the power pole and Korin's Palace was specifically made for that?

 

[Warren_Valion]

In what moment is not linked to the Karin Tower? I mean, it separated once in DBS, but it didn't seems to be invisible or inaccesible to anyone; and iirc people can normally go there by normal flight or flying vehicles.
Alao, give a little tr;dr, aside from all universe share the same space-time what other thing is being discussed?

Goku used the Power Pole as a child, and then, after defeating Piccolo Daimaō, he connected it to the top of Korin Tower to the bottom of Kami's Lookout to visit Kami for the first time. Materializing Kami's Lookout in the human world.

To my knowledge, it has been left there ever since. And that's why it is in the sky.

 

[Xerkser500]

Unless the power pole has some sudden space-time hax to an extent of being able to connect dimensions, im pretty sure thats just big evidence of Kami's Lookout's dimension being physically apart of U7.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

To be fair, I don't think we should take every bit of lore from the original Dragon Ball literally. Considering back then, they thought regular Shenron was an omnipotent deity rather than a creation of Kami, or that King Piccolo destroying Shenron blocked the passage to the Other World leaving recently killed people stuck in Limbo.

 

[Antoniofer]

@Warren, I see. Although, with Low 2-C AP one is capable to destroy spatiolocked places, they still are localized in the same timeline.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren, I see. Although, with Low 2-C AP one is capable to destroy spatiolocked places, they still are localized in the same timeline.

I agree.

I have been against the upgrade myself.

Infinite Zamasu at the time of his destruction is slightly higher than baseline Low 2-C since he was starting to absorb other universes, but he's not 2-C because he never was given the time he needed to fully spread his influence.

 

[Xerkser500]

Also, as part of my issues, IDK why "Goku not being able to teleport to Namek from the Kaioshin realm" is being mentioned or what point its supposed to clarify.

For one, Goku's basis for not being able to teleport to Namek was because he said it was "a bit far from here." And that they didnt even have a space-ship, implying that they could travel via physical distances.

 

[Antoniofer]

Also, I should make notice that someone do not simply erase the afterlife: the afterlife is not thread like a universe with its own time, its a metaphysical plane, erasing it even without erasing the universe would prevent anyone from going to Heaven or Hell, dooming them into oblivion if they die.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Wasn't Zamasu already fused with the future timeline?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Wasn't Zamasu already fused with the future timeline?

Only the Future Timeline's Universe 7.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

How did he reach the future so easily? And what shows Zamasu wasn't fusing with other universes?

 

[Antoniofer]

I could say that due the time machine there were a breach in time that allowed Zamasu to travel back in time, but that would be headcanon, and Yoei is not going to explain further than it was already showed.

Also, this is personal opinion, but I think that its AP comes from mixing Nigh Omnipresence with AP, that it shouldn't be that way.

 

[Warren_Valion]

How did he reach the future so easily? And what shows Zamasu wasn't fusing with other universes?

It wasn't stated or shown that he absorbed the other universes in the timeline, just that he was "spreading his influence."

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It's only implied that Zamasu fused with the future timeline because he showed no signs of stopping, he can cross greater distance (technically breaching 4 dimensional barriers), Zeno destroyed the whole multiverse (see what I posted above) and Zamasu was actually going to be eventually 2-B because of all the other timelines. Saying it's impossible for Zamasu to reach nearer universes is really stretching it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

It's only implied that Zamasu fused with the future timeline because he showed no signs of stopping, he can cross greater distance (technically breaching 4 dimensional barriers), Zeno destroyed the whole multiverse (see what I posted above) and Zamasu was actually going to be eventually 2-B because of all the other timelines.
Saying it's impossible for Zamasu to reach nearer universes is really stretching it.

I never said it was impossible. Don't strawman me.

I said it was never proven that he absorbed the other universes in Future Trunks' timeline.

And where was it ever stated that he would absorb every timeline?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Beerus said he was affecting other timelines.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Beerus said he was affecting other timelines.

Scan?

And how is "other timelines" equivalent to "every timeline".

 

[Antoniofer]

Isn't there only 5 timerings so 5 timelines? To be 2-B is over 1000 timeoines iirc. Also, I doubt being in more than x timelines would make Zamasu any stronger, a Zen'o would still be able to erase him in his respectively universe.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Isn't there only 5 timerings so 5 timelines? To be 2-B is over 1000 timeoines iirc. Also, I doubt being in more than x timelines would make Zamasu any stronger, a Zen'o would still be able to erase him in his respectively universe.

Timerings are made when timelines are created via timetravel, not when timelines are created in general.

Timelines in Dragon Ball are ones based on possibility, and there are timelines that are created from the "smallest of things".

 

[Xerkser500]

When has anyone ever flown to another universe? The technique the Angel's use to travel is not movement speed, it's space manipulation. The official name for the technique is called warp. This allows Whis to travel anywhere he wants, this includes otherworld, which is a place Goku can only get to by teleporting.

Just noticed this. This is also another issue im having with the "Angels not using movement speed" to get to realms like the Kaioshin Realm.

The name of the technique shouldnt mean anything. Like at all. What its called doesnt automatically equate to what it literally is. Kirby use's a Warp Star as his means of transportation in his universe. Doesn't mean the warp star itself doesn't use movement speed. So why would the Angel's transportation method by any different?

Yes, as someone said above, the Angel's warp technique can be used for even crossing through time. But the thing is, that usage of the technique is actively done, and there's 0 evidence that specifies the Angel's use their technique in this method to reach different realms. Now had Whis or another Angel said "we have had successfully crossed dimensions" or something akin to that to specify they cross space-time, that would probably be enough proof for them crossing separate universes.

But otherwise? We need explicit mention of the Angels doing it, not just automatically assuming they did just because the Warp technique ca cross things such as time.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Ok let's delve deep into this. Universe < multiverse < timeline < actual multiverse.

Zamasu didn't just cross a 5D axis but bypassed 4 different dimensional barriers extremely quickly. He bypassed the space time of future U7, then he bypassed the timeline barrier, then he bypassed another timeline barrier and then she space time of past U7. Mind you the 12 universes are much smaller than a timeline because Whis can travel across a universe in 10 seconds at full speed, so 2 minutes to cross the multiverse. It takes Whis 2 days to go to Zeno's palace. So including the distance makes a timeline 1440 times bigger than the multiverse, but I guess that's too hypothetical. Anyway since Zamasu crossed such a huge distance it's possible for him to fuse with other universes because they're right next to him.

Zeno literally refers to Zamasu as the world then destroys the multiverse. Is this not ringing any bells? Zeno doesn't go around destroying multiverses, he only destroyed 6 when he was in a bad mood. Zeno wasn't even angry when he destroyed Zamasu. Goku said destroy Zamasu and Zeno said yes this world is annoying. IMO this is enough evidence for low 2-C possibly 2-C.

I won't repeat myself again because I'll just be wasting time. So if you have to read this post over and over that's fine. If you have questions, ask me and I'll elaborate.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

With how many notable members have been saying their disagreements with the timelines thing, you probably decided that too soon...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Warren I made a mistake on the 2-B statement on my part. It was something Beerus said in the English dub not Japanese. Anyway I'm going to sleep, see you guys tomorrow.

 

[Kepekley23]

Let's stop dwelling on the Time Rings and repeating the same debunked stuff over and over again, please - and this isn't directed at Antonio or anyone, he seemed just confused.

There was a whole thread where dozens of people agreed with it and no new points are being made here, just the same old arguments as before. It's getting tiresome.

 

[Antvasima]

@Kepekley23

If you wish, you can add a footnote to the Zen'ō page that explains why he is 2-C and should not be downgraded.