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Possible DBS Base/Super Saiyan forms scaling change

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CloverDragon03 said:
It's super baseless to assume Goku doesn't still have SSG's power in his base form, that's literally a crucial part of his fight with Beerus in DBS. His body learned from the experience.

Do we just suddenly assume his body unlearned it? That's ridiculous
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Isn't it outright stated that he just absorbs that power into his super saiyan form?
 
MrMTurbo said:
The problem is whether he still has it after the fight. Obviously in the Beerus fight he loses the appearance of the God form, but still has the residual energy imprinted in him so he can still actually keep up with Beerus' power.

Also is it ever stated that Goku's mortal ki is as powerful as SSG? For all we know it could just be when he uses God ki in his base.

Whatever, just close the thread I don't care.
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Yes, he does. That's literally the point. He absorbed it. It's not a temporary power boost. It's even made clear that even after Vegeta had gotten handy with God Ki, he was still only equal to Goku even after training for like a year with Whis.
 
I'll start saying that "this is already discussed 300 times so discussion rule time" is very dishonest. We got the same for 2-C and infinite speed, so why won't we talk about this too? Now only the things that upgrade DBS are no longer under discussion rule, but the things that downgrade it are? This is legit a double standard but I disgress.

Anyway:
CloverDragon03 said:
It's super baseless to assume Goku doesn't still have SSG's power in his base form, that's literally a crucial part of his fight with Beerus in DBS. His body learned from the experience.

Do we just suddenly assume his body unlearned it? That's ridiculous
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No one says that Goku never absorbed the SSJG power in the base, but I think it has beed retconned. The SSJB explanation is very clear about it being the replacement of the normal SSJ in both movie and DBS, meaning that the normal SSJ forms were no longer a thing after that SSJB existed.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
We already had this discussion hundreds of times, but Goku getting an automatic Zenkai mid fight against Beerus to the point where his base form was just as strong as his SSG form
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You accuse people of making baseless things, then you say shit like this? Nothing says about Zenkais, it literally says about Goku merging with the power of a God (plus your disagreement about DBS downgrades is very questionable when you straight up make up dialogues outta nowhere lol).



And this is supported in both Manga and Anime, as in both cases is said that the Blue is the SSJ Form for the Saiyans who can become SSJG without changing form (here and here).

Meaning that normal forms straight up were not supposed to exist anymore as everything from SSJ1 to God was replaced from the Base, with Blue being the SSJ of said new Base form. But then U6 ARC Happened, and we now get Goku being able to become SSJGod again. Are you now telling me that Goku can become SSJG^2? Come the **** on.

The "absorbing the God" thing has been changed from "I am strong as a SSJG in base" to "I can become SSJG without the ritual".

This alone should disprove the Base = God as it contradicts the very basis of it.

Another thing that contradicts it is Base Frieza being potrayed on the same level as Base Dyspo (here and here) with the latter being stronger than God but weaker than Blue.

Plus, how can Trunks/U6 Saiyans being that tier anyways? Vegeta and Goku got through rituals/training with Gods, but those Saiyans instead did not.

But I know there are arguments against this, so let me get through them all...

But Goku became a SSJ against Beerus!

So what? It was a temporary thing which was not even explained, and completely clashes against Goku's explanation and the manga's explanation too. And we should take priority over Goku explaining what is the form over a random thing which happened randomly with no true explanation lol.

Base Vegeta stomped SSJ3 Gotenks/Goku is stronger than all DBZ villains

Again, so? This does not mean their base form is Tier 2, is just an higher degree of 4-B (also because, that's expected when they fight with Whis lol)

I wouldn't be surprised if this gets strawmanned, stonewalled and so on, because this wiki is so overprotective over wanking DBS the same way it downplays comics, ignoring all the scaling and the context of the story.
 
The only thing that could maybe debunk it is a author statement.

Base Goku nullified the big thing which puts him at that level and then you have dozen of Beerus statements.
 
Saying "I already saw this" without explaining why I am wrong is not the way to do this. You are ignoring a lot of plot points and other things to still make Base = God valid.

Unless you think Goku can become SSJGod^2 as he's already a SSJG in base and can transform in SSJG lmao.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Saying "I already saw this" without explaining why I am wrong is not the way to do this. You are ignoring a lot of plot points and other things to still make Base = God valid.

Unless you think Goku can become SSJGod^2 as he's already a SSJG in base and can transform in SSJG lmao.
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Bruh I've already agreed if Toriyama the stuff is legit (im on my phone made of wood) cuz author statement >>>>> head canon of random weebs
 
Jinsama said:
Bruh I've already agreed if Toriyama the stuff is legit (im on my phone made of wood) cuz author statement >>>>> head canon of random weebs
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K
spamton-deltarune.gif
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
Or maybe you're just misunderstanding what it is?
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Goku straight up says that that is the SSJ for a Saiyan with the power of a God in base, and the manga guidebook says the same, with it being the SSJ for the ones who can get the power of the God without changing form.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Goku straight up says that that is the SSJ for a Saiyan with the power of a God in base, and the manga guidebook says the same, with it being the SSJ for the ones who can get the power of the God without changing form.
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Yes, and Super Saiyan God Is his "Godly" base form. It's different from his actual base form, proven by the fact that he can still turn into a regular Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2/3. This is literally just taking away the context.
 
I don't blame you for having a problem with Cabba and Frost being 2-C but if you want it changed I think you're a lot better off trying to argue how credible Goku and Vegeta are when fighting these guys and whether they really used the full power of their base or SSJ forms (as Krillin fight shows, Goku can be weaker than his base even while in SSB if he wants). BoG makes it abundantly clear that the true power of their base forms reached the level of the first SSJG.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
Yes, and Super Saiyan God Is his "Godly" base form. It's different from his actual base form, proven by the fact that he can still turn into a regular Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2/3.
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That happened in U6 arc. But again, Goku becoming SSJG later contradicts him having absorbed God power in base, it literally means that he can become SSJG^2 and I don't need to explain what is wrong with that.
 
StrymULTRA said:
That happened in U6 arc. But again, Goku becoming SSJG later contradicts him having absorbed God power in base, it literally means that he can become SSJG^2 and I don't need to explain what is wrong with that.
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Why so? SSJG is just a glorified multiplier on top of base. Goku's base is SSJG level=/= Goku's base contains god ki, it's not a contradiction.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
Why so? SSJG is just a glorified multiplier on top of base. Goku's base is SSJG level=/= Goku's base contains god ki, it's not a contradiction.
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Because is literally said that Goku can become strong as a SSJG without changing form, meaning that is still using the power of the transformation.
 
I need to sleep for now, and I don't actually have my own skepticisms for the 2-C upgrade and especially the Infinite speed scaling. But no way are we downgrading base Goku to 4-B. He literally repelled a blast with more than enough power to destroy all of Universe 7 and he literally reverted from SSG to base form without even noticing it in the middle of his fight with Beerus. The only reason wouldn't notice it is the fact that it wore off and his power level hasn't dropped a single bit. If anything he was still getting much stronger. Literally everything in the book points to Goku being Cosmic tier outright even in his base form.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But no way are we downgrading base Goku to 4-B. He literally repelled a blast with more than enough power to destroy all of Universe 7 and he literally reverted from SSG to base form without even noticing it in the middle of his fight with Beerus.
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Retconned as I already said lmao.

All of this is legit argument from incredulity and ignoring everything happened after the BoG arc.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Goku's statement goes in line with that guide though.
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How? Blue being SSGSS doesn't invalidate his regular base form reaching BoG SSJG level. No one's arguing that his Base form actually has god ki infused into it, just that his base form is as strong. It's no different from Base Buu Saga Goku being stronger than Namek SSJ Goku and stacking SSJ on top of that.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Retconned as I already said lmao.

All of this is legit argument from incredulity and ignoring everything happened after the BoG arc.
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The only "Retconned part" was the "SSG absorbed into his baseform" statement. But I have seen the Anime and the fight scene still literally plays out that same way. And we only see even more evidence of Goku getting stronger in later seasons such as Goku Black stomping SSB Vegeta in his base form and SSR (Which is identical to a SSB multiplier) getting stomped by SSB Vegeta after he trained. These types of power ups happen a lot in Super and to argue against it is literally 2+2 =/= 4 levels of ignorance.

So again, Post Zenkai Base Goku > Pre Zenkai SSG Goku becoming a common occurrence including the BoG saga is blatant. Case and point.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The only "Retconned part" was the "SSG absorbed into his baseform" statement. But I have seen the Anime and the fight scene still literally plays out that same way. And we only see even more evidence of Goku getting stronger in later seasons such as Goku Black stomping SSB Vegeta in his base form and SSR (Which is identical to a SSB multiplier) getting stomped by SSB Vegeta after he trained. These types of power ups happen a lot in Super and to argue against it is literally 2+2 =/= 4 levels of ignorance.
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Black Goku is not Goku though lol. Why using him to argue Goku's PL?
 
But Vegeta trained a whole year though.

It's not really the same. Plus nothing hinted at Base Vegeta becoming > Base Black, he still used SSJB.
 
Base Goku fighting Beerus hiding as monaka evaporates the idea that he didn't keep that power on base, whis actually had to interfere

Saiyan beyond god was brought up on RoF movie, hinted in the anime adaptation, then dropped completely, further arcs followed the BoG principles

Most of the arguments for is basically disbelief at the fact that many characters were recipients of power creeps as a consequence.

Not to mention in the future trunks arc, we see SSB Vegeta weaker than base Goku Black, then proceed to rage stomp SSR rose on the rematch, meaning his base form had to be greater than his former SSB form for that to happen
 
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Also, for what it's worth, even in the movies, "Saiyan Beyond God" and the whole using the god power in Base thing isn't treated as some substitute for the red hair form that voided its usage, because in the same fight he still literally does use the red hair form as a last resort, even while still previously clearly fighting at the level of his previous SSJG in just Base/SSJ.
dragon-ball-dragon-ball-z.gif

Goku's Base reaching SSJG level in neither movie or anime had anything to do with borrowing the power of SSJG, his regular, standard base form simply just became as strong. What's used in RoF is a honed concept that appears for the first time there as something similar to Ikari Broly of using some of the power of a transformation in base without transforming. Just as how in the Anime Goku stacking SSJG on his Base doesn't mean his Base isn't as strong as BoG SSJG (since it's a standard multiplier, and his base power is it's own thing), the same goes for the RoF movie.
kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/
Is it possible that other Saiyans will be able to become [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
Of course. However, strength will vary depending on the battle power of the Saiyan who becomes [Super Saiyan] God.
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So is the Toriyama scan legit? I think my phone/Internet is trash so that link doesn't work.

Edit: OK nvm. I thought it was a new statement from Toriyama and not the movie stuff.
 
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Wtf am I reading. These scan debunk/retcon nothing.

Going SSJG made Goku's normal Ki rise in response. His body basically remembered that power. We have similar cases with Majin Vegeta and SSJ4 Goku ( who is accepted as alternate canon) ( and non Canon CC Vegeta with his SSJB beserk form) who both kept their amps.

Goku isn't SSJG in base. He can still be sensed and can't sense Beerus in base either. However he has SSJG-level of strength in base and that is the whole point. The scans refer to God Ki itself.

I am not wasting any more time on this. We need a discussion rule.
 
SirAlex09 said:
Wtf am I reading. These scan debunk/retcon nothing.

Going SSJG made Goku's normal Ki rise in response. His body basically remembered that power. We have similar cases with Majin Vegeta and SSJ4 Goku ( who is accepted as alternate canon) ( and non Canon CC Vegeta with his SSJB beserk form) who both kept their amps.

Goku isn't SSJG in base. He can still be sensed and can't sense Beerus in base either. However he has SSJG-level of strength in base and that is the whole point. The scans refer to God Ki itself.

I am not wasting any more time on this. We need a discussion rule.
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No, making a discussion rule about this would be a double standard especially seeing how may times it took before 2c db universe was finally accepted.
 
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