Possible 2-B Zen'o

[Kepekley23]

@DDM

I'm not sure why you believe I'm supporting 2-B? I'm very plainly against it, while Ryukama is playing Devil's Advocate. You got the actual stances of this debate mixed up.

 

[Dark649]

Also the Time Ring scan of the Super Manga cannot be used since its own thing and should not applied to the anime at all, which includes Zen'o.

 

[Ryukama]

@Kep You do know that Whis said "the entire world" before Goku and Vegeta supposedly had just the 12 universes in mind right? So even if Goku and Vegeta apparently only thought 12 universes, that doesn't mean that's what Whis was referring to before they even jumped to a conclusion.

And again, Zeno destroying 6 universes before doesn't prove that Zeno can only destroy one timeline. These things are not at all correlated.

How is the claim "Zeno can only destroy 12/18 universes" proven by "Zeno once destroyed 6 universes"?

It isn't. Fine just use Occam's Razor or say that it's the more conservative interpretation to use until we get more evidence for the latter. You could've also brought up how Zeno himself uses "the world" to refer to just one timeline. But this 6 universe statement is a terrible argument.

 

[AKM sama]

2-C for now until more confirmation would be ideal.

 

[Dark649]

I saw in the past the false assumption that destroying more than 100 universes is 2-B, but in reality is more than 1000 universes.

 

[PaChi2]

I mean, afaik, there arent 1001 timelines/universes in the canon DB super. So Zeno cannot be 2-B anyway.

 

[Ryukama]

Let me just say my stance on this since I think people might get confused. In the original thread Knight referred to, the profiles on this site both supported Zeno being able to destroy all timelines, and supported that Future Trunks manga statement. So I originally just asked, why don't we put 2 and 2 together and upgrade?

Then my stance became that Whis would not be referring to other timelines when he said "all of existence" when he knows other timelines exist, and the very arc this statement is from centers around going to other timelines.

As of now, I'm fine with keeping the pages as they are since "all of existence" was used in the manga only. Whereas "the world" is used in the anime. While "the world" could be used to also refer to all timelines, it referring to the 12 universes is the simpler, more conservative interpretation until more concrete evidence supports the other. Also in the anime Zeno himself uses "the world" to refer to one timeline.

TLDR: I originally asked a question since our profiles were getting wonky. Then I got convinced of 2-B for a while. Then I got convinced back into being fine with 2-C, but that doesn't mean I like every argument used for 2-C.

 

[PaChi2]

I mean, afaik, there arent 1001 timelines/universes in the canon DB super. So Zeno cannot be 2-B anyway.

...?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Kep Wasn't calling you a believer in 2-B was talking to regular users trying to upgrade him that high.

 

[Ryukama]

I mean, afaik, there arent 1001 timelines/universes in the canon DB super. So Zeno cannot be 2-B anyway.

...?

Future Trunks's statement in the manga (which we used for 2-B Xenoverse) would suggest there is.

 

[Kepekley23]

Pachi forgot to switch accounts and accidentally questioned himself there.

 

[PaChi2]

But then you get the "creating new timelines is a great crime" which contradicts that, given that changing the past is a big deal because of that.

The anime goes by the logic that there are only... what, 4 or so parallel timelines?

 

[Ryukama]

@Kep Don't make PaChi3 have to step in ovo

@PaChi A person creating a new timeline through intervention is a crime. But new timelines can be created naturally.

 

[PaChi2]

Don't make PaChi3 have to step in.

You... dont know... how many of us...

 

[Kepekley23]

@Ryu

My response just for efficiency's sake.

No. Whis made that statement while under the impression Goku and Vegeta didn't know about the timelines. He would be referring to the entire multiverse, not all the timelines. Really, there's no mention of timelines anywhere. We don't retroactively make Champa and Beerus's fight Low 2-C just because they scale to Infinite Zamasu, we recognize it as a 3-A feat that is overridden by the future scaling. There's no reason to try and fit timelines into this.

You're misunderstanding the point. Whis made the statement, knowing that Goku and Vegeta would interpret it as the 12 universes, then made it even more obvious by mentioning the 6 destroyed universes. Look at the context.

"Vegeta: The entire world?"

"Whis: Yes. Previously there used to be 18 universes [in the world]..."

It's pretty obvious there is no way that timelines can fit here. The conversation is solely about the universes, and thus "all the world" = DBZ multiverse.

 

[Ryukama]

PaChi talking to one of his sockpuppets

 

[Dark649]

Ryu, it seems you are making a wrong comparison. Xenoverse is 2-B because of the Time Vault, which is made of much more than 1000 universes [And Demigra was going to destroy it], both are Xeno/Heroes elements only. The words many different worlds from Trunks doesn't imply there are, nor can be created, nor Zen'o can bust more than 1000 universes, also Zen'o was shown to be only able to destroy all the 18 normal universes and there is a Zen'o for timeline. I also agree with Kep comment.

 

[Ryukama]

@Kep Whis thinks Goku and Vegeta are unaware of there being other timelines, but that doesn't mean Whis believes Zeno can only destroy 1 timeline. Or that he'd just limit "the entire world" or "all of existence" to the 1 timeline just because they're unaware of more timelines.

Zeno destroying 6 universes is just an example of his ridiculous power. It doesn't prove that he can only destroy 12/18 universes or that Whis is referring to just that. Whis never says "in the world" to refer to the status of there being 18 universes.

Again, "Zeno destroyed 6 universes once" =/= "Zeno can only destroy 12/18 universes".

But since again I am fine with 2-C Zeno, I'm just dropping this now.

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

Isnt zen already 2-C tho?

 

[Ryukama]

@Dark649 Trunks's manga statement wasn't the main or only thing used for 2-B Xenoverse, but it was used for justification at the time I made that thread. "Many different worlds are created from the smallest of things" does imply at the very least 1001 worlds.

Also as for this "Zeno per timeline" argument, so is Xenoverse not 2-B either then? Pretty much all of Xenoverse's 2-Bs have other timeline versions of themselves.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

2-C, possibly 2-B should be in the realm of possibility.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ryu. Difference is, XV characters have feats to support it. Zeno's best feat is 2-C, and having a Zeno in every timeline only exemplifies that.

 

[PaChi2]

@Ryu. Difference is, XV characters have feats to support it. Zeno's best feat is 2-C, and having a Zeno in every timeline only exemplifies that.

Noctis Lucis Caelum

Ardyn Izunia

Gladiolus Amicitia

Where is the 2-B rating again? ovo

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They're in Dissidia

 

[Ryukama]

@Cal Zeno wouldn't be 2-B because he lacks the feats then. Him not being 2-B wouldn't be because there is one of him for each timeline. This fact proves and exemplifies absolutely nothing. Blowing up multiple timelines and being a multiversal constant are two entirely different things. It's like saying Saitama isn't galaxy level because he can't fly. No he isn't galaxy level because he has no galaxy level feats. Him not being able to fly has nothing to do with it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

...I sent you a PM

 

[Ryukama]

@Cal Finally ovo

Message me on my wall bro.

 

[AKM sama]

...I sent you a PM

Hmmmm suspicious.

Orchestrating a plan with a bureaucrat to take this wiki down, are we? Count me in OvO

 

[Rikimarox2]

Zeno Should Be High 1-A But Vs Battle Is Biased Against Dragon Ball So They Made Him 2-C.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Should we just close the thread? It seems it was already pretty much answered.