Posible downgrade for Asta's Black Divider

[Siegfried10]

So i was rereading the elves arc and i ended up doubting the current scaling Asta has. So far he is scaling above Licht's Conquering Eon for slicing Zagred's heart, but is that actually true?

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Black-Clover/0210-002.png

It was said in the manga that Anti-Magic worked particularly well against Zagred and the he was avoiding being harmed by it. Yuno, who was as strong as Asta during all the Elf Reincarnation Arc, even said they needed to hit him with Asta's Sword. During the final battle Asta was exhausted and was being helped by Yuno so he could land a hit, and when they finally landed an attack they also did equal damage. Yuno shouldnt be weaker than Asta by any means, yet he couldnt kill Zagred and even pointed out that Anti-Magic was needed.

It has been said here that Licht could kill Demons, so if he couldnt and Asta could that means Asta is stronger, but i disagree with this. While it might be true that Licht lacked power, that doesnt mean Asta was stronger for killing it. Yuno, who is a strong as Asta, couldnt kill Zagred either. It seems to me that Anti-Magic made Asta's attack more effective than regular magic, and i mean, it was specifically said they needed Anti-Magic.

And while we are here, why is Licht's Sword of Conquering Eon scaling to the combined strenght of those 10 elves? They werent exactly at full power after all their fights and Licht didnt take all their magic power, just and unknown amount of it. Help me understand cause i really dont see the logic here.

 

[SuperStar]

You should probably get some knowledgeable members of Black Clover in here.

 

[Azevedo128]

It was said in the manga that Anti-Magic worked particularly well against Zagred and the he was avoiding being harmed by it.

That's because AM was arcane just like Licht, Lumiere and Yuno's Spirit of Zephyr.

Yuno shouldnt be weaker than Asta by any means, yet he couldnt kill Zagred and even pointed out that Anti-Magic was needed.

They knew literally nothing about Zagred and he seemed to be invincible so AM was like their best response which it was.

It has been said here that Licht could kill Demons, so if he couldnt and Asta could that means Asta is stronger, but i disagree with this. While it might be true that Licht lacked power, that doesnt mean Asta was stronger for killing it. Yuno, who is a strong as Asta, couldnt kill Zagred either. It seems to me that Anti-Magic made Asta's attack more effective than regular magic, and i mean, it was specifically said they needed Anti-Magic.

Asta's Black Divider far surpasses SOZ in raw power and Yuno just didn't hit the right place. Also that would imply that AM has durability negation which imo is arguable.

And while we are here, why is Licht's Sword of Conquering Eon scaling to the combined strenght of those 10 elves? They werent exactly at full power after all their fights and Licht didnt take all their magic power, just and unknown amount of it.

Well, when a character scales to a certain quantity all their basic attacks scale to that as well, if a character scales to 100 tons it doesn't mean they need to use all their reserves of power to do a 100 ton attack. So the calculations actually low ball it a lot actually since Licht probably wouldn't just take 1 attack's worth of power from them.

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[Siegfried10]

They knew literally nothing about Zagred and he seemed to be invincible so AM was like their best response which it was.

Thats true, but Yuno knows how strong Conquering Eon was as well as he also knows how strong he is, yet he was sure that he couldnt kill Zagred. He knew he lacked the power to beat Zagred, and was counting on Anti-Magic being more effective than regular magic.

That's because AM was arcane just like Licht, Lumiere and Yuno's Spirit of Zephyr.

Yes, but it was even more effective than their pseudo arcane magic, and that was pointed out by Yuno. Zagred was only truly cautious of Anti-Magic.

Asta's Black Divider far surpasses SOZ in raw power and Yuno just didn't hit the right place. Also that would imply that AM has durability negation which imo is arguable.

Yuno was certain he couldnt kill Zagred, despite being equal to Asta, and was counting on Asta's Anti Magic not his raw strenght. Zagred also said Yuno couldnt cut his heart.

Asta and Yuno have been at the same level of power during all the elves arc, they also dealt the same amount of damage to Zagred while cutting him with SOZ and BD. The only instance when Asta did something Yuno couldnt was when he cut his heart, and it was pointed out it was because of the Anti-Magic, not because of his raw strenght.

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

Thats true, but Yuno knows how strong Conquering Eon was as well as he also knows how strong he is, yet he was sure that he couldnt kill Zagred. He knew he lacked the power to beat Zagred, and was counting on Anti-Magic being more effective than regular magic.

This is not a defeater. Yuno is not being scaled to Conquering Eon

Yes, but it was even more effective than their pseudo arcane magic, and that was pointed out by Yuno. Zagred was only truly cautious of Anti-Magic.

Yes, anti magic is more effective than regular magic. It isn't the end all be all. Asta still needs to scale to his opponent as shown with Vetto and Gueldre tanking attacks from his swords.

Yuno was certain he couldnt kill Zagred, despite being equal to Asta, and was counting on Asta's Anti Magic not his raw strenght. Zagred also said Yuno couldnt cut his heart.

It would be your burden of proof to say that Spirit of Zephyr = Black Divider

Zagred also said Yuno couldnt cut his heart.

This is not a defeater either. Yuno can't cut the heart because he doesn't scale to it.

Asta and Yuno have been at the same level of power during all the elves arc

This is demonstrably false. They continually leapfrog each other over the course of the arc

they also dealt the same amount of damage to Zagred while cutting him with SOZ and BD.

The damage from cutting attacks is going to be limited to the edge of the blade.

The only instance when Asta did something Yuno couldnt was when he cut his heart, and it was pointed out it was because of the Anti-Magic, not because of his raw strenght.

Anti magic doesn't outright ignore durablity. Asta has to scale relative to be able to damage an opponent.

 

[Duedate8898]

So i was rereading the elves arc and i ended up doubting the current scaling Asta has. So far he is scaling above Licht's Conquering Eon for slicing Zagred's heart, but is that actually true?

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Black-Clover/0210-002.png

It was said in the manga that Anti-Magic worked particularly well against Zagred and the he was avoiding being harmed by it. Yuno, who was as strong as Asta during all the Elf Reincarnation Arc, even said they needed to hit him with Asta's Sword. During the final battle Asta was exhausted and was being helped by Yuno so he could land a hit, and when they finally landed an attack they also did equal damage. Yuno shouldnt be weaker than Asta by any means, yet he couldnt kill Zagred and even pointed out that Anti-Magic was needed.

It has been said here that Licht could kill Demons, so if he couldnt and Asta could that means Asta is stronger, but i disagree with this. While it might be true that Licht lacked power, that doesnt mean Asta was stronger for killing it. Yuno, who is a strong as Asta, couldnt kill Zagred either. It seems to me that Anti-Magic made Asta's attack more effective than regular magic, and i mean, it was specifically said they needed Anti-Magic.

And while we are here, why is Licht's Sword of Conquering Eon scaling to the combined strenght of those 10 elves? They werent exactly at full power after all their fights and Licht didnt take all their magic power, just and unknown amount of it. Help me understand cause i really dont see the logic here.

I support that, particularly because we're shown when battling Zagred specifically, that Asta needs to produce more Anti-Magic in order to properly harm Zagred. And throughout the series, we're shown an increase in the amount of Anti-Magic also means an increase in actual AP for Asta. With Yuno and him combining their power, they manage to only chip his arm. Then when both draw out more power, with Asta drawing out more Anti-Magic and Yuno managing to acclimate his magic to Zagred's they become able to severely harm Zagred. And seeing as drawing out more Anti-Magic is shown to also carry an increase in power when Asta is able to harm Zagred before fully forming his Black Divider and cut through his heart where the likes of Licht with a boost of magic couldn't, it shows that Asta's Black Divider is more powerful. The reason why everyone wanted Asta to use his Anti-Magic was that it would also stop him from using magic after the fact to heal himself, since Anti-Magic stops magic. It's about both AP and Hax in this case.

Now, with Licht's sword, generally, unless specifically noted around about a character any boost provided by another in an attack will take their AP since AP isn't just ones absolute power (not at least how its treated) but their general power in combat. We use specific APs for attacks when there is a big difference in this power.

 

[PrinceofPein]

So if that is the case why are people scaled to asta black divider? If it is AP and has, that depends on the amount of anti magic he produced?

Well I planned on reading BC from the start again before I made any revision but like I already said in the upgrade thread for the said black divider, anti magic against Zagred is a hax and shouldn't scale to anyone, you need arcane or spirit stage magic to harm devil's hearts

 

[Duedate8898]

So if that is the case why are people scaled to asta black divider? If it is AP and has, that depends on the amount of anti magic he produced?

Well I planned on reading BC from the start again before I made any revision but like I already said in the upgrade thread for the said black divider, anti magic against Zagred is a hax and shouldn't scale to anyone, you need arcane or spirit stage magic to harm devil's hearts

It doesn't scale to anyone pre-time skip from what I understand of the current profiles. Everyone is just scaling to Zagred. And it isn't just Hax, as we're shown Asta growing more physically powerful the more anti-magic he draws out. It's a combination of both. Because its never specified you need Arcane stage and above to harm a devil's heart, arcane is just to affect a devil with your magic.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It doesn't scale to anyone pre-time skip from what I understand of the current profiles.

They do actually at least zenon and the rest

Everyone is just scaling to Zagred. And it isn't just Hax, as we're shown Asta growing more physically powerful the more anti-magic he draws out.

So why does he scale physically at all if no one can quantify the hax part?

It's a combination of both.

Why does his SS scale?

Because its never specified you need Arcane stage and above to harm a devil's heart, arcane is just to affect a devil with your magic.

Actually it was stated that you need arcane stage or spirit magic to affect a devil's heart

 

[Epsilon_R]

They do actually at least zenon and the rest

He said "Pre-timeskip" Zenon is Post-Timeskip.

So why does he scale physically at all if no one can quantify the hax part?

AM amps his physical abilities. The more he uses, the stronger he is, I don't know what you can't understand here

Why does his SS scale?

SS?

Actually it was stated that you need arcane stage or spirit magic to affect a devil's heart

And?

 

[PrinceofPein]

He said "Pre-timeskip" Zenon is Post-Timeskip.

AM amps his physical abilities. The more he uses, the stronger he is, I don't know what you can't understand here

Still unquatiable since it's a hax that supposedly erases magic

SS?

Striking strength

And?

Because its never specified you need Arcane stage and above to harm a devil's heart, arcane is just to affect a devil with your magic.

That was my reply to his message maybe you should read what I tagged before replying

 

[Epsilon_R]

Still unquatiable since it's a hax that supposedly erases magic

His body isn't made of magic, we went over this last time..

Striking strength

Again, Zagred's body isn't made of magic so Asta cutting him scale to his AP/SS

That was my reply to his message maybe you should read what I tagged before replying

"anti magic against Zagred is a hax and shouldn't scale to anyone, you need arcane or spirit stage magic to harm devil's hearts"

What is your point here?

 

[Epsilon_R]

Also we literally just repeating the same stuff that were mentioned and debated in the previous thread.

Nothing is different here

 

[PrinceofPein]

"anti magic against Zagred is a hax and shouldn't scale to anyone, you need arcane or spirit stage magic to harm devil's hearts"

What is your point here?

Read what I tagged

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The previous thread was practically forgotten as far as I remember

 

[Epsilon_R]

I did, and it doesn't answer what you were trying to say in the part I quoted

 

[Epsilon_R]

The previous thread was practically forgotten as far as I remember

This debate lasted for 100+ posts

 

[PrinceofPein]

I did, and it doesn't answer what you were trying to say in the part I quoted

Sorry I can't help you then

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay, I've seen this topic brought up so many times without new evidence that I really think a discussion rule should be put in place, but I'm gonna address this for (hopefully) the final time.

Both Conquering Eon and Black Divider are arcane stage, which is needed to destroy a devil's heart. Conquering Eon didn't destroy Zagred's heart, while Black Divider did. Now for addressing the counterarguments. First off, Yuno's statement that Anti-Magic works on Zagred isn't the most reliable thing there. He's merely going off of what he saw, that being that Asta stabbed Zagred with Black Divider and Zagred got mad at it. Another huge flaw in this argument that it was due to Anti-Magic is that there is zero proof for the idea that Anti-Magic works on devil hearts. In fact, it's now contradicted by the fact that Noelle could slice a devil heart with her Saint Valkyrie Dress. Devil hearts have no indication of being made of magic, so we cannot assume the whole "Anti-Magic works on them better" thing to be true. It works because it's arcane stage, not because it's Anti-Magic.

To address the OP as well, Asta and Yuno being equal is baseless. In fact, it's contradicted by the fact that Asta's power-up was taking a toll on him while Yuno's power-up wasn't causing that struggle, despite them being equal beforehand. A lot of the OP's argument stems from the idea that Asta and Yuno were equal when they used Black Divider and Spirit of Zephyr respectively, but there's nothing that actually proves that.

Anyways, hopefully I addressed everything.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Anti-Magic isn’t Durability Negation...Why do people not understand this...?

 

[SuperStar]

Anti-Magic isn’t Durability Negation...Why do people not understand this...?

The fights would have been way shorter if that was the case.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Bumperino