Pokemon's Verse Cleanup

[Robot972]

Turns out Reuniclus and Eiscue are the only profiles remaining with TM and Tutor moves. So, here's everything else.

Egg Moves

Venusaur, Raticate, Arbok, Sandslash, Nidoking, Nidoquee, Ninetales, Vileplume, Parasect, Venomoth, Meowth, Primeape, Arcanine, Poliwrath, Alakazam, Machamp, Victreebel, Farfetch'd, Dewgong, Alolan Muk, Hypno, Exeggutor, Alolan Exeggutor, Marowak, Lickitung, Weezing, Tangrowth, Kangaskha, Seaking, Pinsir, Lapras, Eevee, Vaporeo, Dragonite, Noctowl, Ariados, Togepi, Natu, Azumarill, Sudowoodo, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Forretress, Scyther, Heracross, Houndoom, Donpha, Sceptile, Blazike, Gardevoir, Breloom, Torkoal, Flygo, Crawdaunt, Kecleo, Absol, Infernape, Empoleo, Staraptor, Bidoof, Pachirisu, Buneary, Lucario, Toxicroak, Abomasnow, Weavile, Electivire, Yanmega, Glaceo, Mamoswine, Probopass, Dusknoir, Lillipup, Gigalith, Sigilyph, Garbodor, Zoroark, Reuniclus, Swanna, Ferrothor, Chandelure, Haxorus, Delphox, Talonflame, Diggersby, Malamar, Goodra, Incineroar, Primarina, Toucanno, Vikavolt, Eiscue, Dragapult

GO Moves
Raticate, Arbok, Sandslash, Nidoking, Nidoquee, Ninetales, Vileplume, Parasect, Venomoth, Meowth, Primeape, Arcanine, Poliwrath, Alakazam, Machamp, Victreebel, Dewgong, Alolan Muk, Exeggutor, Lickitung, Weezing, Tangrowth, Seaking, Porygo, Mew, Ariados, Misdreavus, Forretress, Houndoom, Donpha, Sceptile, Blazike, Absol, Pachirisu, Buneary, Bronzong, Toxicroak, Glaceo, Dusknoir, Gigalith, Swanna

TCG Moves
Raticate, Sandslash, Nidoking, Nidoquee, Ninetales, Vileplume, Meowth, Alakazam, Dewgong, Tangrowth, Seaking, Magikarp, Ariados, Misdreavus, Houndoom, Donpha, Sceptile, Blazike, Pachirisu, Buneary, Lucario, Toxicroak, Yanmega, Glaceo, Dusknoir

Special Moves
Venusaur (Frenzy Plant), Charizard (Blast Burn), Meganium (Frenzy Plant)

Event Moves
Nidoking, Nidoquee, Poliwrath, Alakazam, Exeggutor, Lickitung, Tangrowth, Seaking, Misdreavus, Donpha, Zoroark

Dream World Moves
Nidoking, Nidoquee, Ninetales, Arcanine, Poliwrath, Lickitung, Tangrowth, Misdreavus, Donpha

Gale of Darkness Moves
Ninetales, Arcanine, Poliwrath, Dewgong, Exeggutor, Lickitung, Tangrowth

IQ Skills
Raticate, Arbok, Sandslash, Nidoking, Nidoquee, Ninetales, Vileplume, Parasect, Venomoth, Meowth, Primeape, Arcanine, Poliwrath, Alakazam, Machamp, Victreebel, Farfetch'd, Dewgong, Exeggutor, Lickitung, Tangrowth, Seaking, Porygo, Ariados, Sudowoodo, Misdreavus, Forretress, Houndoom, Donpha, Sceptile, Blazike, Absol, Pachirisu, Buneary, Bronzong, Lucario, Toxicroak, Yanmega, Glaceo, Dusknoir

Conquest Abilities
Alakazam, Eevee, Magikarp, Articuno, Mewtwo, Forretress, Sceptile, Gardevoir, Glalie, Groudo, Rayquaza, Staraptor, Garchomp, Lucario, Weavile, Glaceo, Dusknoir, Froslass, Dialga, Arceus, Zoroark, Bisharp, Haxorus

(Probably missed at least a few Conquest Abilities as some profiles don't say anything about the abilities)

Side Note: Hypno does now learn Dream Eater (Gen 7)

 

[Agnaa]

Why would those categories of moves be removed? With the exception of event moves I don't see any obvious issues.

 

[Drite77]

Seeing the Event and Dream World moves makes me nostalgic

 

[Robot972]

Why would those categories of moves be removed? With the exception of event moves I don't see any obvious issues.

It's not that they should be removed. I'm just noting that only a select few have them.

 

[GyroNutz]

Any Pokemon post-gen 4 has IQ skills (except Arceus but he has the abilities of the CT anyway).

These are the Pokemon in Pokemon Conquest.

Here are the Pokemon who get moves via purification.

Starters from gens 1-4 learn their respective "hyper beam" moves without a tutor. Any dragon types that were around in gen 4 get Draco Meteor without a tutor. Not sure if the gen 5 starters + Axew get their exclusive moves in Gates to Infinity.

Not that many Pokemon get TCG exclusive moves. They're generally mentioned on bulbapedia if they do.

If Pokemon don't even have their abilities listed, that's probably a bigger issue.

 

[Drite77]

Why would those categories of moves be removed? With the exception of event moves I don't see any obvious issues.

It's not that they should be removed. I'm just noting that only a select few have them.

Only a selected few have them because i made most of them (Well, i don't want to get credit for all of them, but most of the event and dream world moves that you listed were created by me). I had alot of free time so i just kept making Pokémon profiles, it was fun

 

[Nemo212]

Please keep the humblebragging to a minimum.

To clarify, I think we all agree events should be out of there.

Dream World is... weird. I remember using it, but wasn't the gist basically that the Pokemon were dreams, and Fennel used some technology to make them real and drag them out of the Dream World? I don't know if I'd consider it "wild", it's more like creating a tulpa than anything.

 

[Drite77]

Na, i need to feed my Ego ovo

Well, before i added any of them i asked Staff that is knoledgeable on Pokémon and they greenlighted me

 

[SomebodyData]

They're at their hypothetical peak without training. Stuff that's exclusive to training shouldn't be on the profiles.
It's a lot simpler than trying to determine what the 'average' of each species is.

Ignoring the fact that a heavily experienced PMD Charizard is used as a feat for the profiles, for the no trainer pokemon rule, it seems like an arbitrary distinction.

Especially, since well, if you wanna take the 'simpler' answer and break the rules, it seems kinda like the logical next step? Not sure how you can justify one and not the other.

Not putting my foot down and saying we have to use TMs, but using this to understand why there seems to be such a commonplace rule breaking with pokemon. I haven't exactly been active lately and espically for Pokemon, so understanding why is kinda important for a future thread.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

That Charizard is wild, wild pokemon are capable of training on their own

 

[SomebodyData]

That's... exactly the issue. It's an arbitrary distinction. We already have the 'average' rule to ensure species profiles don't basically get all their stuff from one or a few members, like Space Pirate or a hypothetical Saiyan profile.This 'hypothetical best', ignoring the fact that we don't even allow hypothetical profiles to begin with, is basically an arbitrary line that has easy loopholes and only incites argument. Wild trained Pokemon and trained Pokemon are well, yeah, trained pokemon. Or at least PMD, specifically.

Though this is all secondary to the fact that it is rule-breaking. I understand if you guys wanna drop this for the time being, since its a bit derailng.

 

[Overlord775]

Thing is, Pokémons trained by humans are explicitly stated to be stronger than their wild counter-parts iirc.

 

[GyroNutz]

Ignoring the fact that a heavily experienced PMD Charizard is used as a feat for the profiles, for the no trainer pokemon rule, it seems like an arbitrary distinction.

Especially, since well, if you wanna take the 'simpler' answer and break the rules, it seems kinda like the logical next step? Not sure how you can justify one and not the other.

Not putting my foot down and saying we have to use TMs, but using this to understand why there seems to be such a commonplace rule breaking with pokemon. I haven't exactly been active lately and espically for Pokemon, so understanding why is kinda important for a future thread.

I haven't seen that calculation being brought up once until now. Although it's hardly an arbitrary distinction; trained Pokemon are very different from non-trained Pokemon. A non-trained Pokemon can be expected to theoretically learn any move in their level-up moveset, their egg moveset, etc., but they can't be expected to learn TMs by themselves since they've never shown to be capable of doing so (bar PMD).

I don't even get how this is rule-breaking. What we do with Pokemon profiles is exactly in line with what it states under the Editing Rules for species profiles.

 

[Robot972]

Here's my question. If we were to, say, call back everything and strip all Pokémon profiles down to a "wild", "average", "untrained" state...

What would the profiles look like?


Either they would look almost exactly the same, since I'm pretty sure all Pokedex entries, unless stated otherwise, are wild Pokémon, or they would be, what, street level? Athletic human level? Pokémon battles in the games don't destroy anything (Except for that one game where you mess up your room), so would they just be compared to real world animals of similar size?

And how would we do abilities? Separate key/tab for each move/ability and then people have to choose which moves/abilities the Pokémon have access to? Or do we just limit them entirely to what options they can spawn with?

 

[SomebodyData]

@Gyro really? It's why we have Mountain level+ for final evolutions... Wild pokemon don't naturally have egg moves though, they have to be specifically breed for that.

The rules mention that everything on the page would have to be something they all have, not a hypothetical peak (Which the rules explicitly state is not allowed), so I'm not sure where you're getting that its okay?

@Robot well (barring any scaling issue) most of the tiering would drop a bit. They'll still be pretty similar all in all, bar Megas and Z-Moves. Dynamax / Gigantamax would be their own key for the Pokemon that appeared in Galar's dens specifically.

Abilities can still be in the same tab / ability, just specify the most common ones, we would basically have to list the specific ability used for a vs thread by extension. 4 moves would still be decided by op too, so its still pretty much the same, just more specified and less hypothetical uber species.

 

[Agnaa]

Wild pokemon don't naturally have egg moves though, they have to be specifically breed for that.

The idea behind giving pokemon egg moves is that pokemon have to breed in the wild, so some would end up getting egg moves eventually.

 

[Overlord775]

@Robot

I'd like to remind you that Dragonair nuked a city in the manga and that Defog was calculated to be Montain Level in potency

@Data

They do naturally have egg moves, as you can catch wild pokemons that already have them.

Also Egg moves wouldn't be "Peak" as basically any one member of the specie can have them.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Agnaa That's like accepting ligers for tiger pages because it can happen in the wild, regardless of whether that's normal. Like when is a charzard gonna breed with a Rampardos? I mean, its technically possible for a Pokemon to accidently find a TM in the wild, not realistic or anything but still, just for another comparsion.

I know that seedot's evolutionary line can in special conditions in gen 3 could have leech seed and some specific pokemon in gen 6 through Island scans, but otherwise it isn't natural.

@Overlord

Yes, but like I said to Agnaa^ that's the rare exception to a few player mechanics, not naturally found.

Well it wouldn't be 'average' either, is what I'm saying. Like I said, Charizards or any other pokemon don't naturally breed with other species in the wild. I could use the games, anime, or manga if you want proof, considering all relationships outside of breeding are inter-species.

 

[GyroNutz]

@Gyro really? It's why we have Mountain level+ for final evolutions... Wild pokemon don't naturally have egg moves though, they have to be specifically breed for that.
The rules mention that everything on the page would have to be something they all have, not a hypothetical peak (Which the rules explicitly state is not allowed), so I'm not sure where you're getting that its okay?

I thought it was from upscaling from Pupitar's 531 megaton feat. Wild Pokemon can have egg moves as shown by DexNav.

The rules state that anything the species is potentially capable of should be included on the profile. It says not to use exceedingly extraordinary feats and abilities on the profiles, which is why we disregard all the tier 3-5 outliers and SoL Diglett. It's reasonable that any one member of a species can have any ability listed on its profile.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Yeah I agree with Cal's assessment tho which is indeed common-sense (for example having non-legendary/mystic mons doing tier 5 to 3 feats is pretty obviously an outlier but by the same measure having legendary/mystic mons getting hurt or even defeated by first/middle stage mons is classic PiS).

 

[SomebodyData]

We can't have X+ tiering without a calc placing it there if I remember correctly. Though doesn't it do it via Thrash / 'Violent Struggle' (ie thrashing about) that wouldn't be a one hit/turn attack, anyways? Hence why I'm thinking the feat comes from Charizard, otherwise that would be a pretty massive oversight.

The rules are regarding feats beyond the average member of the species not outliers (which would be removed regardless)

 

[SomebodyData]

@Gyro We can't have X+ tiering without a calc placing it there if I remember correctly. Though doesn't it do it via Thrash / 'Violent Struggle' (ie thrashing about) that wouldn't be a one hit/turn attack, anyways? Hence why I'm thinking the feat comes from Charizard, otherwise that would be a pretty massive oversight. DexNav only applies for a few specific pokemon. I already said some pokemon can naturally be found with egg moves (like seedot) but that doesn't apply for the majority. Enter my liger example again.

The rules are regarding feats beyond the average member of the species not outliers (which would be removed regardless), but I'm not saying they can't have any ability.

I'm just saying they can't have all abilities at once and to list which is the most common (In my response to Robot, I also said that the op can choose which ability anyways). So abilities aren't even that impacted.

 

[GyroNutz]

When I brought up mega scaling for them to be High 7-A, all supporters on the thread agreed they'd be > 1062 megatons by being greater than Pokemon who are 2x regular fully evolved Pokemon (e.g. Huge/Pure power users, Thick Club Marowak). Thrash is a multi turn move, but it only hits once per turn, so I doubt that discredits it. That's also assuming that it's directly referring to the move Thrash, and even then Tyranitar can perform the same feat with ease.

DexNav only identifies Pokemon, it doesn't make them have egg moves. Given that there are numerous Pokemon in the wild with egg moves, it's unreasonable to assume that every other Pokemon that isn't/can't be identified by the DexNav is incapable of having egg moves.

What the rules say explicitly is that anything the species potentially can have is allowed, but that feats from notable individuals that are far beyond/below what the species has shown should be discarded. A wild Poochyena that has egg moves is not a notable individual. PMD Charizard is a notable individual, but his feat may still be considered legit as the result is not "exceedingly extraordinary" (it's about 1.5x a feat done by a non-fully evolved Pokemon and pokedex entries back it up somewhat by saying that Charizard can melt anything).

I'll make another thread discussing whether Pokemon 7-As should keep the "+", as this one's been derailed heavily as is.

 

[SomebodyData]

Ignoring the definition of thrash is definitely not one hit: in-game it's also depicted as going apeshit. It'd be like treating something like an energy volley in Dragon Ball as one hit. Sure its technically one move, but definitely not one hit.

Dexnav identifies the Pokemon yeah, I'm not seeing that conclusion though. It specifically targets the most notable of wild pokemon, that's the point. It detects hidden Pokemon and Pokemon unnaturally found in Hoenn too, it makes more sense for this to be the exception-finder as it is in-lore, than take as normal.

Well ignoring the issue with said non-fully evolved feat, the fact that the feat is around there speaks higher to the unlikelihood of them being tier 7-A+ naturally.

Go ahead I guess.

 

[Nemo212]

https://youtu.be/vPcjnJjx_3g?t=75

Dug my way through some AMVs to find something using Twister. Here's Milotic. I'm aware it's not going to be comparable to Horsea, but it's still a far cry from two kilometers wide. If someone could calc this, we could probably have a solid tornado feat.

 

[GyroNutz]

Ignoring the definition of thrash is definitely not one hit: in-game it's also depicted as going apeshit. It'd be like treating something like an energy volley in Dragon Ball as one hit. Sure its technically one move, but definitely not one hit.
Dexnav identifies the Pokemon yeah, I'm not seeing that conclusion though. It specifically targets the most notable of wild pokemon, that's the point. It detects hidden Pokemon and Pokemon unnaturally found in Hoenn too, it makes more sense for this to be the exception-finder as it is in-lore, than take as normal.

Well ignoring the issue with said non-fully evolved feat, the fact that the feat is around there speaks higher to the unlikelihood of them being tier 7-A+ naturally.

Getting into specifics here, the animation of thrash shows a barrage of kicks and punches. Pupitar has neither the means to kick or punch, as its arms and legs are underneath its shell and never come out until it evolves. Its pokedex states that it launches itself around, which we can assume to be its method of physical attacks. Plus again, the other stuff I stated already about this.

The argument isn't that it's the most common thing for a random Poochyena, for instance, to have X egg move. It's that there are a considerable amount of Pokemon that can be found via the DexNav with egg moves. Many more Pokemon can't even be found in the wild in Hoenn to be identified via the DexNav. We have the Seedot example, and the example of PMD starters having egg moves. Egg moves occur naturally, and are something each nearly every species of Pokemon are capable of getting.

Or it just means that PMD Charizard isn't that much stronger than a regular Charizard, if at all. His feats are getting stomped by Groudon, getting stomped by Mewtwo and debatably an off-screen battle with Moltres/Articuno, but there's so many factors in those battles that we can't say it's a solid feat whatsoever.

 

[GyroNutz]

https://youtu.be/vPcjnJjx_3g?t=75
Dug my way through some AMVs to find something using Twister. Here's Milotic. I'm aware it's not going to be comparable to Horsea, but it's still a far cry from two kilometers wide. If someone could calc this, we could probably have a solid tornado feat.

Water is lifted into the tornado here, which is notably heavier than air. So that might actually get decent results.

 

[SomebodyData]

Which doesn't change anything. I wasn't arguing thrash's method of attack, I was arguing what happens in thrash itself (a barrage of hits, in pupitar's case, as you point out, launching itself).

I brought up seedot line because he is explicitly the exception, no other pokemon in mass outbreaks in gen 3 have egg moves, which is counterproductive to your point.

The same with the Pokemon not found naturally using the DexNav, that was my point. Maybe we're getting different conclusions from the same info, but when I see that the DexNav, a device that detects Pokemon that cannot naturally be found in the region does to an even lesser degree the same for egg move Pokemon, that shows its just as rare, if not even rarer.

Getting stomped by tier 5 and 6 legendaries isn't really proving anything. Though this part hinges on the Pupitar. But like you said, we are derailing. If you want, I can delete this comment and continue on your wall or mine so you could have the last comment on the thread in regards to this.

 

[Nemo212]

I'd still like to bring up my earlier point about the Dream World moves, given that Dream World Pokemon aren't "wild" in the traditional sense and more like dreams turned into reality using Fennel tech. Do they really belong on the profiles?

 

[TheGatememer]

This is unrelated, but how come multipliers from pokemon are allowed?

 

[Overlord775]

boh

 

[GyroNutz]

@SomebodyData if you want to continue it on my wall or here that'd probably be best.

@Nemo probably not

@Rtxthegamer can you be more specific? All multipliers in Pokemon that I can think of are uncontroversial and generally 2x or 2.5x, tops. Abilities like Pure/Huge Power are described multiple times as doubling the user's power. But again I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to.

 

[TheGatememer]

I mean like the abilities like Huge Power, and items like thick clubs. Stuff like that isn't normally accepted for other verses despite having similar reasoning, so why is it accepted for Pokemon?

 

[Jvando]

Two wrongs don't make a right, two rights don't make a wrong, and however other phrases you can use to describe it. If other verses haven't gotten it accepted With similar reasoning to pokemon, doesn't mean that Pokemon shouldn't. Those verses will just have to be revised or talked about again. The reverse is also true, of course.

In regards to the Milotic twister feat, I should be able to get something for that though I'll have to guesstimate a reasonable speed for the twister or somehow figure that out.

 

[GyroNutz]

I mean like the abilities like Huge Power, and items like thick clubs. Stuff like that isn't normally accepted for other verses despite having similar reasoning, so why is it accepted for Pokemon?

Why isn't it accepted for other verses? Afaik this fits our multiplier standards just fine.

 

[Nemo212]

Just realized something.

Using Earthquake in the games never results in any environmental destruction. The anime, to my knowledge, doesn't have any sort of catastrophic building-breaking earthquakes either. In fact, several times it's just depicted as above-ground shockwaves. I don't know about the manga, but I'm inclined to say nothing environmentally devastating happened there either.

We might need a recalc, or to reconsider what exactly Earthquake means.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Environmental destruction is not a requirement for something to be considered an AP feat

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

EQ sank Ecruteak City in the manga, so...yeah.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

^That too^

 

[Nemo212]

EQ sank Ecruteak City in the manga, so...yeah.

Okay. Do we have scans of this? Which Pokemon used Earthquake?