Pokemon's Verse Cleanup

[Nemo212]

Yeah, his Bulbasaur was crazy strong. Definitely not the norm for his species.

There's still a lot of instances of unevolved Pokemon pummeling fully evolved ones as well as legendaries in the anime, though, so your point still stands quite well.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I think that cases of Pokemon stalemating or beating Legendaries (Charizard vs Articuno, Sceptile vs Darkrai, Pikachu vs both Regice and Latios) should count as outliers.

Pikachu, Charizard and Sceptile still have a lot of strong feat even without the legendary beating

 

[Nemo212]

I mean, it's clearly beginning to show that we just can't use Ash feats for wild Pokémon. They're all exceptionally strong as hell, and trained.

 

[Amexim]

Weekly said that already tho.

Why is it unreasonable to scale General Pokémon from an untrained pikachu, even if it is ashes? And why are we ignoring the fact that we have more than 1 8-A feat? What's your proposal for the scaling, my guy?

 

[GyroNutz]

I don't think there's much of a point of discussing feats that'll never be put on the profiles. But here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:The_real_cal_howard/Pokemon_Outlier_Compilation_Blog .

The SoL Diglett statement comes from Episode 31: Dig Those Diglett. Can't find the relevant gif though.

 

[GyroNutz]

Onix's feat probably comes from its Pokedex entries, though I can't find a calc anywhere

 

[Ionliosite]

Why are the anime feats even IN the non-anime profile in the first place?

Because there isn't such thing as non-anime profiles, there's only canon profiles. And Word of God says anime, games and the PokéSpe manga are equally canon.

 

[00potato]

Being equally canon doesn't mean that they scale

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Weekly said that already tho.
Why is it unreasonable to scale General Pokémon from an untrained pikachu, even if it is ashes? And why are we ignoring the fact that we have more than 1 8-A feat? What's your proposal for the scaling, my guy?

We can't use Ash's Pikachu, as the first feat he was amped beyond belief, he was amped by tens of other Pikachus and more electricity and his second feat was done after he trained to beat Brock, which makes him beyond the norm, and he also beat a Raichu before this feat so no, the only feat we can use for Pikachu is his final move against the spearows, but I don't think it was ever calced.

 

[Nemo212]

@Amexim. Good questions. - It's simple. PIS. Ash's Pikachu is quite literally, the protagonist of a shonen anime, as I've said before. Of course, he's going to do some crazy shit. Not only does he have plot armor, he can weaponize it as well, if you catch my drift.

- We're ignoring the 8-A feats because so far, they've all been garbage save for Rhyhorn. I've accentuated why in previous posts.

- My proposal for scaling is on a case-by-case basis. I think Rhyhorn and say, Boldore would likely be comparable. (You guys are sleeping on him by putting him in the same tier as Cherubi and Zubat.) I wouldn't say Rhyhorn and Pidgey are anywhere close to comparable. Still figuring this out as we go, though, so likely to change.

Thanks, GyroNutz.

 

[Ionliosite]

Why wouldn't they scale? The three are equally canon sources, so we can perfectly use feats from the 3 of them on the species profiles. The exception to this would be feats for a single speciesmen profiles, such as Lucario (Mystery of Mew) and Lucario (Pokémon 7), which don't scale to Lucario.

 

[HenryWong122]

Weekly said that already tho.
Why is it unreasonable to scale General Pokémon from an untrained pikachu, even if it is ashes? And why are we ignoring the fact that we have more than 1 8-A feat? What's your proposal for the scaling, my guy?

We can't use Ash's Pikachu, as the first feat he was amped beyond belief, he was amped by tens of other Pikachus and more electricity and his second feat was done after he trained to beat Brock, which makes him beyond the norm, and he also beat a Raichu before this feat so no, the only feat we can use for Pikachu is his final move against the Fearows, but I don't think it was ever calced.

Spearows!!!

 

[HenryWong122]

Can we calc these Pokedex entries?

Pokemon Sapphire/Alpha Sapphire: Aron has a body of steel. With one all-out charge, this Pokémon can demolish even a heavy dump truck. The destroyed dump truck then becomes a handy meal for the Pokémon.

Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, Black, White, Black 2, White 2, Y and Omega Ruby talk about Bagon leaping off cliffs. Pokemon FireRed, LeafGreen, HeartGold, SoulSilver and X talk about it smashing boulders into pieces. Pokemon Sapphire just say it can shatter huge rocks into pebbles.

I just thought this was funny. Pokemon Sword's Baltoy Pokedex Entry "It moves while spinning around on its single foot. Some Baltoy have been seen spinning on their heads."

Most of Bidoof's pokedex entries talk about it gnawing on rocks with Pokemon HeartGold and SoulSilver saying it chews up boulders. I swear to god if Bidoof has an 8-A feat on his own with out scaling to anybody, I am going to be pissed!

Onix can dig through the ground at 50 MPH or 80 km/h. A 28 foot snake made entirely out of rock moving 50 MPH would generate how many joules of energy if it hit?

 

[Nemo212]

I get that the anime is equally as canon as the games. Necessarily, it has to be.

Ash's Pikachu is the definition of a "special case." Most of Ash's Pokemon are, actually.

 

[Ionliosite]

I get that the anime is equally as canon as the games. Necessarily, it has to be.

Ash's Pikachu is the definition of a "special case." Most of Ash's Pokemon are, actually.

Now this is an argument I agree with. Ash's Pikachu is a clear case of a single Pokémon stronger than the rest of his species, just like Sir Aaron's Lucario, so any feats done by him shouldn't scale to the rest.

 

[00potato]

Think about it like this. Let's look at the gen 1 manga, generations, and the gen 1 games. They are clearly different and can't be canon to each other but are equally canon to Pokémon. Just like in other franchises with different universes everything is still canon but they wouldn't scale due to not meeting each other.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I get that the anime is equally as canon as the games. Necessarily, it has to be.
Ash's Pikachu is the definition of a "special case." Most of Ash's Pokemon are, actually.

So Ash's most notable pokemon (Pikachu, Charizard, Infernape, Sceptile, Greninja, Lycanrock and Snorlax) should get profiles of their own

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Some others such as Bulbasaur and Squirtle (who both battled in the battle frontier) should get the seperate profiles as well

 

[Ionliosite]

Think about it like this. Let's look at the gen 1 manga, generations, and the gen 1 games. They are clearly different and can't be canon to each other but are equally canon to Pokémon. Just like in other franchises with different universes everything is still canon but they wouldn't scale due to not meeting each other.

You clearly don't get what our Pokémon profiles are if you're using this logic for claiming they don't scale. Also, there tons of "Gen 1 manga", so it'll be better if you clarified which one you mean. And the Generations mini-series is meant to be on the game universe, so saying that apart from the games is wrong.

 

[GyroNutz]

Can we calc these Pokedex entries?
Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, Black, White, Black 2, White 2, Y and Omega Ruby talk about Bagon leaping off cliffs. Pokemon FireRed, LeafGreen, HeartGold, SoulSilver and X talk about it smashing boulders into pieces. Pokemon Sapphire just say it can shatter huge rocks into pebbles.

Onix can dig through the ground at 50 MPH or 80 km/h. A 28 foot snake made entirely out of rock moving 50 MPH would generate how many joules of energy if it hit?

I've thought about Bagon's feat. I'd probably use Unova's boulders as a baseline and calculate the energy to violently fragment or pulverize them (one of his pokedex entries say he turns rocks into powder). But this wouldn't get results better than 8-C/High 8-C.

You'd be better off looking for the amount of rock or earth pulverized by Onix in 22.352 metres (the amount of ground it covers in a second moving at 50mph). I say rocks because a few of its pokedex entries say it feeds on large boulders while burrowing.

 

[Amexim]

Saying zubat, seedot, and trapinch are too weak to scale is arbitrary and opinion based. The current scaling stands even if we only use rhyhorn. The Pokémon comparable to rhyhorn would already still have their tiering. I don't see the issue.

 

[00potato]

1 I was referring to the Adventures manga, where red's first Pokémon is Poliwrath.

2 wasn't generations the one with Mega Charizard X vs Mewtwo. Yeah that was totally in the gen 1 games.

3 I know what our profiles are. And what they are is shit right now due to over-composition and obsession with outliers.

 

[GyroNutz]

You're thinking of Pokemon Origins I believe

 

[Ionliosite]

1 I was referring to the Adventures manga, where red's first Pokémon is Poliwrath.

2 wasn't generations the one with Mega Charizard X vs Mewtwo. Yeah that was totally in the gen 1 games.

3 I know what our profiles are. And what they are is shit right now due to over-composition and obsession with outliers.

1. Pokémon Special, that's the name one you're looking for. And that's already covered by Word of God.

2. Mega Charizard X vs Mewtwo was on Origins, not Generations.

3. Pokémon does have an insane amount of outliers, there's no over-composition beyond what's stated by Word of God, and saying they are shit is extremely rude.

 

[Robot972]

Gonna pop this in here since it didn't get any attention in the other Pokémon discussion thread.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3747707

 

[Nemo212]

@Amexim Early game fodder is clearly a step below Rhyhorn. To argue otherwise is deliberate ignorance of the source material.

 

[Nemo212]

Thanks for posting that, Robot972. I╠ ╠Âw╠Âo╠Âu╠Âl╠Âd╠ ╠Âl╠Âi╠Âk╠Âe╠ ╠Ât╠Âo╠ ╠Âa╠Âd╠Âd╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âa╠Ât╠ ╠ÂM╠Âu╠Âl╠Ât╠Âi╠Â-╠ÂC╠Âi╠Ât╠Ây╠ ╠ÂB╠Âl╠Âo╠Âc╠Âk╠ ╠Âl╠Âe╠Âv╠Âe╠Âl╠ ╠ÂC╠Âa╠Ât╠Âe╠Âr╠Âp╠Âi╠Âe╠ ╠Âm╠Âa╠Âk╠Âe╠Âs╠ ╠Âm╠Âe╠ ╠Âc╠Âr╠Ây╠Â.╠Â

 

[Foxthefox1000]

If Zubat scales, why doesn't Pichu for being able to one-shot the thing?

Pichu also doesn't have much weaker stats than a Zubat tbh. Pichu is closer to it than Pikachu is. And really, stats are the only way to determine the strength of these 'mon because practically nowhere have they shown good feats (especially just a single Zubat).

 

[Robot972]

I get the point now, that they're fodder and should be a step down, I just never updated that part.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Also in episode 088 of season 1 or the 5th episode of the Orange islands.

Togepi Made a giant explosion that a Gastly and Drowzee survived can it be calced?

 

[00potato]

This leads to many people inconsistencies though. If the Gen 1 games are the same as the manga then how does that explain the differences? Also whether it is origins or generations my point still stands? If their is an insane amount of outliers based on a one-off statement, then shouldn't the issue be with the statement instead of a massive amount of feats? Also I will refrain from sw**ring any longer if it offends you. We can't have b*d language here.

 

[Ionliosite]

The Orange Islands are technically Season 2, not 1 tho.

 

[Ionliosite]

This leads to many people inconsistencies though. If the Gen 1 games are the same as the manga then how does that explain the differences?

Who said they are the same? At no point has that ever been mentioned, and saying such thing makes no sense.

 

[Nemo212]

Still need to see these:

- Whirlpool feat for Horsea

- Mismagius pocket dimension (pretty sure this was an illusion)

- Gothorita pocket dimension

 

[HenryWong122]

Also in episode 088 of season 1 or the 5th episode of the Orange islands.
Togepi Made a giant explosion that a Gastly and Drowzee survived can it be calced?

Gastly survived because it's immune to explosion.

 

[GyroNutz]

Also whether it is origins or generations my point still stands?

That's probably due to the parallel universes where mega evolution was and wasn't a thing respectively. Origins would be in the former, the gen 1 games would be in the latter.

 

[00potato]

If they are obviously not the same and the characters never interact then they don't scale. One word of god statement (one you never showed strangely.) should not overpower a fr*ck ton of inconsistency caused by it. That is the main point. The main point is that their is no good reason to composite from many clearly different settings when it isn't supported in verse outside from one statement and leads to inconsistency.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Also in episode 088 of season 1 or the 5th episode of the Orange islands.
Togepi Made a giant explosion that a Gastly and Drowzee survived can it be calced?

Gastly survived because it's immune to explosion.

Well After the explosion he had some scratches, so Togepi's explosion damaged him, somehow.

 

[HenryWong122]

Also in episode 088 of season 1 or the 5th episode of the Orange islands.
Togepi Made a giant explosion that a Gastly and Drowzee survived can it be calced?

Gastly survived because it's immune to explosion.

Well After the explosion he had some scratches, so Togepi's explosion damaged him, somehow.

NEEEYOM!!!

 

[Ionliosite]

If they are obviously not the same and the characters never interact then they don't scale.

You clearly don't get the profiles are for the SPECIES as a whole, so it doesn't matter if the characters don't interact, it still stands the SPECIES have these feats.

One word of god statement (one you never showed strangely.) should not overpower a fr*ck ton of inconsistency caused by it. That is the main point. The main point is that their is no good reason to composite from many clearly different settings when it isn't supported in verse outside from one statement and leads to inconsistency.

What incosistencies are there? When have this statement ever been contradicted?