Pokemon's Verse Cleanup

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Pokemon is incredibly inconsistent in scaling, since there are many examples of an un-evolved pokemon or not fully evolved pokemon beating a fully evolved pokemon (Bulbasaur vs Meganium, Piplup beating Prinplup, Monferno surviving against Empoleon, Pikachu, Charizard and Sceptile beating Legendaries, Fletchling battling Talonflame, Torracat beating Inciniroar (I think he beated him), and Pokemon battling against UB's and more)

In the games it's even worse, since in the games legendaries can be easily beated by normal pokemon (Like, it's possible to one shot Rayquaza with Ice Beam there, or Infernape one or two hit ko-ing Dialga with Close Combat)

 

[Schnee_One]

Also, Pokémon is one of the most inconsistent verses in all of fiction.

This is so accurate I can't even pinpoint how accurate

Culexus are not this accurate

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Here's the calc of destroying a skyscraper in the references to common feats: Destroying a SkyscraperEdit Mass of a Skycraper = Around 222500 tons

http://theconstructor.org/practical-guide/rate-analysis-for-reinforced-concrete/6954/

154 % = 28 % Cement

154 % = 42 % Sand (which 85 % of Sand or 35.7% of the RC)

154 % = 84 % Coarse (Granite is a good assumption)

Cement = 40454.55 Tons = 40454550 kg

Silica = 51579.55 Tons = 51579550 kg

Granite = 121363.64 Tons = 121363640 kg

Cement = 40454550/1250 = 32363.64 m^3

Silica = 51579550/2650 = 19463.9811 m^3

Granite = 121363640/2700 = 44949.4963 m^3

Fragmentation:

Low End: Using Reinforced Concrete Shear Strength:

(32363640000+19463981100+44949496300) cm^3*28 J/cc 2.7097592872e12 Joules, or 647.648013 Tons, Multi-City Block level+

High End: Using Each Material Shear Strength:

Cement = 6*32363640000 = 194181840000 J

Silica = 70*19463981100 = 1362478677000 J

Granite = 103.42*44949496300 = 4.64867691e12 J

Total Energy = 6.20533743e12 Joules, or 1.48311124 Kilotons, Small Town level

Another method:

381×129.2×57 mts = 2805836.4 m^3

90 % hollowness = 280583640000 cm^3

Fragmentation: Low End: Using Reinforced Concrete Shear Strength: 280583640000 cm^3×28 J/cm^3 = 7.85634192e12 joules or 1.87771078 Kilotons Small Town level

High End: Using Each Material Shear Strength:

Percentages of material:

154 % = 28 % Cement

154 % = 42 % Sand (which 85 % of Sand or 35.7% of the RC)

154 % = 84 % Coarse (Granite is a good assumption)

Volume:

Cement = (280583640000×28)/154 = 51015207300 cm^3

Silica = (280583640000 cm^3×35.7)/154 = 65044389300 cm^3

Granite = (280583640000 cm^3×84)/154 = 153045622000 cm^3

Frag:

Cement = 6 J/cm^3*51015207300 cm^3 = 306091243800 joules

Silica = 70 J/cm^3*65044389300 cm^3 = 4.55310725e12 joules

Granite = 103.42 J/cm^3*153045622000 cm^3 = 1.58279782e13 joules

Total Energy = 306091243800+4.55310725e12+1.58279782e13 Joules = 4.9443539 Kilotons, Small Town level+

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

How can we even make matches with Pokemon (especially for Pokenmon in the games) if a non-evolved Pokemon can beat a fully evolved pokemon?

For Proof, search for example "Is it Possible to beat Pokemon Fire Red with only a Magikarp (8-A?)" (Spoiler: the answer is yes)

 

[HenryWong122]

Basic Pokemon could be High 8-C, scaling to Rhyhorn. We just need to know how many joules of energy would needed to be produced to shatter a skyscraper.

Shattering a skyscraper is an 8-A/Low 7-C feat

Oh, yeah? Then why does the Tiering System page say, High 8-C: Large Building level (Characters who can destroy large buildings such as skycrapers.)?

 

[GyroNutz]

Well there's Magikarp surviving the Galactic Bomb

We don't know how much of the Galactic Bomb each Magikarp survived. Their surface area and the distance they were away from the explosion would have to be taken into account.

 

[Overlord775]

@Nemo

There's no reason Rhyhorn would be stronger than other pokemons in his evolution tier

Also, i think they simply forgot the lake had other things than Magikarps, as it killing everything else wouldn't make any sense since the lake contain Gyarados too.

@Schnee

Vindicate Assassins are the snipers

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Oh yeah Pokémon certainly isn't accurate. But its degree of inaccuracy is overyped.

Babies are one thing.

First forms are above that.

Middle forms are that.

Final forms are above that.

And Legendaries are above that.

Of course there are exceptions. Just like there are exceptions to any scaling. What, is Goku being as strong as he is inconsistency because Saiyans averaged out to 5-B when their planet was still there? And note how all the exceptions are trained Pokémon. Using the games for inconsistency is dumb as well. Saying Dialga can be EQ's by a Dugtrio is a sign of inconsistency? Yeah, and Cloud being goblin level, Mario being mushroom level, Kirby being bird level, and Sonic being spike level is also a sign of inconsistency.

It's hard but it's not that hard.

 

[Overlord775]

How can we even make matches with Pokemon (especially for Pokenmon in the games) if a non-evolved Pokemon can beat a fully evolved pokemon?
For Proof, search for example "Is it Possible to beat Pokemon Fire Red with only a Magikarp (8-A?)" (Spoiler: the answer is yes)

That's just game mechanics, which we ignore

 

[Schnee_One]

@Overlord My bad

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

How can we even make matches with Pokemon (especially for Pokenmon in the games) if a non-evolved Pokemon can beat a fully evolved pokemon?
For Proof, search for example "Is it Possible to beat Pokemon Fire Red with only a Magikarp (8-A?)" (Spoiler: the answer is yes)

That's just game mechanics, which we ignore

There are hardly any cutscenes where Pokemon fight on their own in the games, so would everything be game mechanics? How can you even scale them if everything is game mechanics?

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah we don't really scale with the games there.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

How can we even make matches with Pokemon (especially for Pokenmon in the games) if a non-evolved Pokemon can beat a fully evolved pokemon?
For Proof, search for example "Is it Possible to beat Pokemon Fire Red with only a Magikarp (8-A?)" (Spoiler: the answer is yes)

That's just game mechanics, which we ignore

There are hardly any cutscenes where Pokemon fight on their own in the games, so would everything be game mechanics?
How can you even scale them if everything is game mechanics?

Pokedex entries and Lore

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah we don't really scale with the games there.

But the profiles covers the games parts, aside from few like Pikachi who got an anime profile as well.

Even the anime is very inconsistent with power-scalling, as there are so many examples of noy fully evolved pokemons beating their evolutions or are able to fight them and not be splattered due to insane AP differences (I mean, the difference between 8-A to High 7-C is 1000, and so does the difference between High 7-C to 7-A. And in the 7-A part it actually 7-A+ due to scaling to Charizard and Pupitar)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Well there's Magikarp surviving the Galactic Bomb

We don't know how much of the Galactic Bomb each Magikarp survived. Their surface area and the distance they were away from the explosion would have to be taken into account.

The calc of the Galactic Bomb was Town level+, and the Bomb likely hit the Cave, So I think it can be calced.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Yeah, but that's an outlier.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yeah, but that's an outlier.

The Magikarp feat?

 

[Madotsuki24]

Yes, because that's one feat that Magikarp's are way out of their league to do. If that was true, then Magikarp would be stomping MCB level Pokémon, which is not happening.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

All I want is more consistent scaling (sure every verse has it's inconsistencies, that's just how fiction works) however the scaling needs to be more precise, exceptions are one thing but we can't rely on those said exceptions as the main/only form of scaling.

The Rhyhorn feat seems reasonable.

 

[00potato]

Pokemon is incredibly inconsistent in scaling, since there are many examples of an un-evolved pokemon or not fully evolved pokemon beating a fully evolved pokemon (Bulbasaur vs Meganium, Piplup beating Prinplup, Monferno surviving against Empoleon, Pikachu, Charizard and Sceptile beating Legendaries, Fletchling battling Talonflame, Torracat beating Inciniroar (I think he beated him), and Pokemon battling against UB's and more)

In the games it's even worse, since in the games legendaries can be easily beated by normal pokemon (Like, it's possible to one shot Rayquaza with Ice Beam there, or Infernape one or two hit ko-ing Dialga with Close Combat)

Again, this would be solved if we scaled everything separately. If you base all of your scaling off of one statement that may or may not even exist then of course it is going to seem extremely inconsistent.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Yes, because that's one feat that Magikarp's are way out of their league to do. If that was true, then Magikarp would be stomping MCB level Pokémon, which is not happening.

Well Magikarps were shown to be useless in every category except Durability, If I remember well Meowth tried to cut and eat a Magikarp but when he tried to attack it, he broke his claws by hitting it, and Magikarps weren't shown to be able to hurt each other, so I think it is consistent.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Pokemon is incredibly inconsistent in scaling, since there are many examples of an un-evolved pokemon or not fully evolved pokemon beating a fully evolved pokemon (Bulbasaur vs Meganium, Piplup beating Prinplup, Monferno surviving against Empoleon, Pikachu, Charizard and Sceptile beating Legendaries, Fletchling battling Talonflame, Torracat beating Inciniroar (I think he beated him), and Pokemon battling against UB's and more)

In the games it's even worse, since in the games legendaries can be easily beated by normal pokemon (Like, it's possible to one shot Rayquaza with Ice Beam there, or Infernape one or two hit ko-ing Dialga with Close Combat)

Again, this would be solved if we scaled everything separately. If you base all of your scaling off of one statement that may or may not even exist then of course it is going to seem extremely inconsistent.

The thing is that we can't really use profiles from the games because levels matter and a level 100 un-evolved pokemon can beat a level 50 fully evolved pokemon.

The Anime is a different story, but we would need to make so much profiles for so many pokemon

 

[Madotsuki24]

Yes, because that's one feat that Magikarp's are way out of their league to do. If that was true, then Magikarp would be stomping MCB level Pokémon, which is not happening.

Well Magikarps were shown to be useless in every category except Durability, If I remember well Meowth tried to cut and eat a Magikarp but when he tried to attack it, he broke his claws by hitting it, and Magikarps weren't shown to be able to hurt each other, so I think it is consistent.

Magikarp's can't hurt each other because they only have Tackle, Flail, Bounce and Hydro Pump as their attacking moves! xD

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

We shouldn't bring obvious game mechanics into this plus like it has been mentioned multiple times: WoG states that stuff like the anime and games are canon to each other (further backed by the existence of Ash's mons in the games and stuff like abilities, type match-ups, trade evolves etc being present in the anime).

I don't want this thread to divulge into a circular debate over the fundamentals of Pokémon's canon/composite nature, from my PoV I just want more safeguards and concrete proof for the pokémon scaling on their profiles to prevent MORE threads similar to this one popping up in the future.

 

[HenryWong122]

Yes, because that's one feat that Magikarp's are way out of their league to do. If that was true, then Magikarp would be stomping MCB level Pokémon, which is not happening.

Well Magikarps were shown to be useless in every category except Durability, If I remember well Meowth tried to cut and eat a Magikarp but when he tried to attack it, he broke his claws by hitting it, and Magikarps weren't shown to be able to hurt each other, so I think it is consistent.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/EP016

"Everyone immediately thinks of the Magikarp as their first source of food, Meowth attempts to bite it but ends up breaking his fangs, as Magikarp is, according to Misty, only scales and bones."

 

[00potato]

Why can't you use profiles from the games. There are enough feats from the Pokédex entries and for scaling we can do what we do already with separating them by stage of evolution. Your other argument is just you being lazy.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Rhydon has an 8-A feat

Diglett has an 8-A feat

Pikachu has an 8-A feat

Magnemite has an 8-A feat

Horsea has an 8-A feat

Onix has an 8-A feat iirc

Where exactly is the inconsistency?

 

[Nemo212]

Weekly, we've been over this.

- Horsea's feat is based off a two kilometer wide tornado. Unreliable.

- Diglett's feat isn't linked to in his profile. Show me proof.

- It's not Magnemite, it's Magneton that has a calc.

- Ash's Pikachu is the exception, not the norm, for its species, hence why it has a different profile. Why are the anime feats even IN the non-anime profile in the first place?

- Rhydon, okay, fine.

- Show me Onix's feat.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Rhydon has an 8-A feat
Diglett has an 8-A feat

Pikachu has an 8-A feat

Magnemite has an 8-A feat

Horsea has an 8-A feat

Onix has an 8-A feat iirc

Where exactly is the inconsistency?

The inconsistency is when un-evolved Pokemons are beating evolved Pokemon, who are listed as much higer in here (like a 1000 times difference between each evolutions)

 

[HenryWong122]

So someone explain to me whether my thought process is right here or not.
- Ferroseed is Multi-City Block Level for being comparable to Horsea.

- Horsea is Multi-City Block Level because it can use Twister.

- Ferroseed cannot legally learn Twister.

- Therefore, Ferroseed is not comparable to Horsea. Ferroseed is not 8-A.

Can I just say, that I'm 99.99% sure that this is a fallacy?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Weekly, we've been over this.
- Horsea's feat is based off a two kilometer wide tornado. Unreliable.

- Diglett's feat isn't linked to in his profile. Show me proof.

- It's not Magnemite, it's Magneton that has a calc.

- Ash's Pikachu is the exception, not the norm, for its species, hence why it has a different profile. Why are the anime feats even IN the non-anime profile in the first place?

- Rhydon, okay, fine.

- Show me Onix's feat.

I found the Diglett calc, [[1]] It should be added to his profile

 

[Nemo212]

@Henry, yeah, you can. That's precisely what I was looking for in the OP: someone to tell me whether I was right or wrong.

However, the thread has gone far past that, and now we have a big issue with Horsea's multi-city block level feat, which throws the entire premise of the original thought process into jeopardy.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Meanwhile in DC, a character does a universe level feat, no matter how many times it happens and no matter how important it is to the story.

VBW staff: "O-O-Outlier!!!!".

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Horsea has an 8-A feat for whirlpool

Diglett's feat

Magneton is three magnemite stuck together

The 8-A feat for pikachu comes f4om ash having it on day 1 with no training whatsoever

Theres also a feat of a bunch of Kabutos sinking an island

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Doesn't Superman have 55 or so universal feats?

 

[Nemo212]

feebas_factor on NarutoForums wrote: Eh... I kinda have to object to this one. No where in the attack description does it ever mention lava, and even in-game the attack is ground-typed whereas every other lava attack in Pokemon is fire-typed. Not to mention the fact that (as you noted) both the anime and the manga depict the attack as simply a generic burst of energy released from the ground. So pretty much the only implication that lava is even involved is the animation sequence for the attack in-game, which for a calc I feel is pretty shaky ground
Since both the anime and the manga depict it as something different, we can probably throw it out the window.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Doesn't Superman have 55 or so universal feats?

Yes, but the staff calls it an outlier and doesn't accept it, no matter how consistent it is and how important to the story it is and related to his character.

 

[Overlord775]

Meanwhile in DC, a character does a universe level feat, no matter how many times it happens and no matter how important it is to the story.
VBW staff: "O-O-Outlier!!!!".

Pokemon did not have litterally hundreds of different writers, so not a fair comparation

 

[Drite77]

I mean, this is about Pokémon, so no reason to bring up DC's feats. If you want to, make a CRT about DC

 

[Madotsuki24]

Pokemon did not have litterally hundreds of different writers, so not a fair comparation

But they say that it's an outlier due to DC being a very inconsistent verse, while Pokémon suffers from the same thing...