Pokemon Scaling

[Thebluedash]

@Ryukama Legendaries is classfication, it means it's rare, it means it's a legend.

It's not a basis for power, that's like saying Shiny Magikarp is the strongest ever.

 

[LordAizenSama]

At the bare minimum a Legendary should scale upwards from all non-Legendary Pokémon.

There is no reason why it scales to anyone notable besides the fact it belongs to a certain group. Infact its only showing ( in the movie) highlights how weak it is.

A legendary could be legendary because it is unique, rare or powerful.

Thats like scaling all captains to Kenpachi because they are captains, despite no evidence of being able to scale

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Isnt Manaphy in the movie also referred to as the Prince of the sea or something like that? Given to him for being above that of a majority of all water Pokemon? Even Kyogre iirc but I can be wrong.

 

[Thebluedash]

@Kuku4Life

Prince of The Sea doesn't mean you're stronger than other water Pokemons.

It's like saying a King is stronger than his knights.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Because it ain't weaker than a magikarp. There's wanting feats, I get that, but than theres comment sense, Manaphy may not be able to raze a country but it sure ain't weaker than route 1 fodder. If its tier is of such importance why not figure out what its absolutely above first, then go on to the legendary status debate (Which I'm personally leaning towards, the low end of the scale. but leaning none the less).

 

[LordAizenSama]

Isnt Manaphy in the movie also referred to as the Prince of the sea or something like that? Given to him for being above that of a majority of all water Pokemon? Even Kyogre iirc but I can be wrong.

So the respect scaling returns. We have gotten this low. Sigh.

 

[QuagsireTheLegend]

Manaphy is probably considered the prince by the ones that worship him, other believe Kyogre is the king

 

[Ryukama]

@Ryukama Legendaries is classfication, it means it's rare, it means it's a legend.
It's not a basis for power, that's like saying Shiny Magikarp is the strongest ever.

If Legendary just means its scarceness rather than its power, then sure.

I'm not entirely knowledgable here. So I'll stop giving input and let the rest of you guys decide which is best. Just wanted to ask a couple questions and see if I could bring up any possible solutions.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Isnt Manaphy in the movie also referred to as the Prince of the sea or something like that? Given to him for being above that of a majority of all water Pokemon? Even Kyogre iirc but I can be wrong.

Dude, you should drop that immediately.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Aizen

Nope. Legendary Pokémon are explictely all meant to be more powerful than lesser Pokémon, their rarity isn't the only factor. And all Pokémon are very much unique so I don't know what you mean by that.

Stop using the fallacious Kenpachi comparison, btw, it's a false-equivalency. The Pokemon equivalent of that would be scaling all Legendary to Dialga because he is also labeled a "Legendary". What you're saying is that a Captain shouldn't be stronger than even a Menos Grande.

 

[FateAlbane]

The Pokemon equivalent of that would be scaling all Legendary to Dialga because he is also labeled a "Legendary". What you're saying is that a Captain shouldn't be stronger than even a Menos Grande.

You literally just proved that we can't scale based on "because legendary" alone, Matt.

That could give us anywhere from Small Country to Palkia.

Doesn't sound like enough basis to give a tier for me, honestly.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Aizen I would prefer you not treat us like we are ******* idiots okay? Yes we see you disagree. But stop being so damn condescending and arrogant. We have not "gotten low" as such stop acting like we are committing some grave sin. It is really starting to piss me off. If you had an issue with it in the first place, you should not have ignored said thread about this. But you chose to and now you suddenly have a problem. Even if you are correct, that does not justify being a damn asshole about it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Then people shouldn't scale remotely to Superman "because they're Kryptonian/Daxamite"

People shouldn't scale to Darkseid "because they're New Gods"

People shouldn't scale to (Multi) Eternity "because they're abstracts"

People shouldn't scale to (insert Digimon here) "because they're (insert type of Digimon here)"

People shouldn't scale to Raditz "because they're Freeza soldiers"

Etcetera.

This isn't a matter of "two wrongs don't make a right". This is a matter of not being wrong in the first place.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You also must consider this:

If Manaphy is so tremendously weak why would it even be considered a legendary at all? I'm not saying it should stay where it is but to be given the Legendary rank at all shows Manaphy is not on the bottom of the food chain and there is no reason ppl would fear and/or give respect to a Pokemon who by the logic of this post is as weak as a magicarp. Look at Corsela. We used to rank it so highly and look how that turned out. In Canon even un-evolved Pokemon are it's greatest predators because that's how weak it really is in comparison. Manaphy would be given the same exact treatment and more in canon if it was just a weak Pokemon.

 

[Ryukama]

People shouldn't scale to (Multi) Eternity "because they're abstracts"

Well in the case of Multi-Eternity, you don't even have to be comparable to him to be High 1-B. You just have to be within the same plane of existence as him to be High 1-B. So that scaling would still be valid regardless.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Aizen

Nope. Legendary Pokémon are explictely all meant to be more powerful than lesser Pokémon, their rarity isn't the only factor. And all Pokémon are very much unique so I don't know what you mean by that.

Stop using the fallacious Kenpachi comparison, btw, it's a false-equivalency. The Pokemon equivalent of that would be scaling all Legendary to Dialga because he is also labeled a "Legendary". What you're saying is that a Captain shouldn't be stronger than even a Menos Grande.

>Explicitly stated to be above pokemon in power.

Show me proof of this. It has been Explicitly contradicted in the canon If your case was correct then no one would defeat or capture legendaries right?

>Their rarity isnt the only factor.

Uhh, yeah. I literally gave 3 examples. However Manaphy is the prince of the sea, has extremely low tier showings and no proof of scaling to anyone else.

Im still waiting for someone to give me proof for why it scales to other legendaries, not headcanon not theories not speculations, solid evidence.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They're legendary for way more reasons because they're rare. They're legendary because they should be revered, considering a large portion of them have impressive entries in their Pokedexes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's not at all what I did.

I was merely pointing out how flawed the Bleach comparisons are because we are not at all scaling them to the strongest Legendary feats. We are scaling them to the average. Tier 6 feats in Pokemon are bog standard for Legendary, there's about over 10 of them, and even Pseudo-Legendaries can do Tier 7 feats by actions as casual as walking.

This means that a Legendary Pokémon, which contrary to what some users are saying here, do not receive that title simply because of Rareness, but by the legendary status of their power and abilities in relation to all other Pokémpn, which are lesser than them. Again, Legendary Pokémon are often even given royal and godly titles because of their hierarchical position over other Pokémon.

Even if Low 6-B is such a controversy, At least High 7-A would be the bare minimum for a Legendary.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Well in the case of Multi-Eternity, you don't even have to be comparable to him to be High 1-B. You just have to be within the same plane of existence as him to be High 1-B. So that scaling would still be valid regardless.

Not entirely true, considering M Bodies exist.

 

[Thebluedash]

They're legendary for way more reasons because they're rare. They're legendary because they should be revered, considering a large portion of them have impressive entries in their Pokedexes.

Sorry, I don't like that argument at all, "they should be revered".

"A large portion of them have impressive entries"

Not all legendaries and as you said a "large" portion, but not all of them yes?

Manaphy a legendary pokemon who has been shown to not be that strong and have no real feats. Who do you justify scaling them to powerful legendary pokemon such as that?

Sorry for bring other series into this again, but Bleach.

Captains are only accepted if they are stronger than average shinigami and have a bankai.

Why don't we scale all the captains to each other? I mean they all have the same titles and they are "revered".

 

[Ryukama]

Multi-Eternity is an infinite dimensional entity. Even if you're far weaker than him, as long as you're also infinite dimensional or at least reside in the same plane of existence as he does, you're High 1-B as well. Multi-Eternity may be far stronger than another abstract, but if he isn't transcending them entirely, that abstract is still High 1-B.

Regardless Marvel is irrelevant to this conversation and should be dropped.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Manaphy showing to not be that strong because again it's literally a new born who has no knowledge on how to use its true power?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Stop bringing Bleach into this. These are two different verses. Simple as that. Let's focus on Pokemon. We could careless how you choose to scale Bleach seeing as both franchises are completely different.

 

[Thebluedash]

@Dragon

You know why you should care?

Cause it's the same deal. You guys are scaling someone based on a title. So explain to me whats the difference Dragon? Instead of telling me to stop talking about it. Can you explain it?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You're saying they're legendary because they're rare. That's just as fallacious, if not more so. Especially considering how Manaphy and Shaymin are part of a race, and a new Entei is born with every volcano. Recall that most Legendaries are treated as gods, and for a good reason. Even some of the ones without impressive feats in Pokedexes have good feats above that of normal Pokemon (aka Shaymin)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dash, this argument of your is self-defeating.

>We are arguing that Legendaries are stronger than all non-legendary Pokemon because their Legendary status comes from their power which is beyond that of normal Pokémon, which is precisely why they become legends.

>You bring up Bleach Captains and literally state that they are above normal Shinigami and need up have Bankai

>But you also use Bleach Captains to bring up the argument of "Legendary is just a title which is meaningless without feats", even though you yourself admit that to be a Captain you have to be a big deal.

So which one is it?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Im just gonna say this: Literally every time Manaphy appears in a game, episode, movie, or manga, its either an egg or a literal newborn, but in the manga it is stated that Manaphy has enormous power in the Pokemon Ranger manga.

 

[LordAizenSama]

That's not at all what I did.

I was merely pointing out how flawed the Bleach comparisons are because we are not at all scaling them to the strongest Legendary feats. We are scaling them to the average. Tier 6 feats in Pokemon are bog standard for Legendary, there's about over 10 of them, and even Pseudo-Legendaries can do Tier 7 feats by actions as casual as walking.

This means that a Legendary Pokémon, which contrary to what some users are saying here, do not receive that title simply because of Rareness, but by the legendary status of their power and abilities in relation to all other Pokémpn, which are lesser than them. Again, Legendary Pokémon are often even given royal and godly titles because of their hierarchical position over other Pokémon.

Even if Low 6-B is such a controversy, At least High 7-A would be the bare minimum for a Legendary.

First of all your misconceptions that legendaries must be > non legendaries has no proof or merit. Just headcanon/speculation (which is straight up proven wrong in the canon btw They have been defeated by normal pokemon before)

Whats so wrong with putting a pokemon with 0 feats and 0 reasons to scale as unknown? Anything else is just pure speculation. This is the safest low end to go with.

 

[QuagsireTheLegend]

Im gonna play devil's advocate, but isnt "tremendous power" very commonly used troughout Pokémon?

 

[QuagsireTheLegend]

IIRC Numel's lava is regarded as having "tremendous power"

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Blue. When every Shinigami has feats or scaling dwarfing that of the normal cast until their fourth time around, then compare it. Until then, they're different.

Even in the game, catching a legendary/mythical Pokemon is considered impressive. Check the Rotomdex's response when you catch them.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not Headcanon and Speculation, it's literally the reason they are considered Legendaries in the first place, and the reason they are revered and even worshiped as deities in some regions of the world.

This isn't a difficult concept.

When has a Legendary Pokemon been defeated by someone who wasn't a big-deal main character trainer, or a main movie villain with prep-time? Absolutely never. Red defeating Legendaries with his Pokémon is not at all the same thing as a wild Pikachu defeating an Articuno, so that's a rather deliberatedly misleading thing to state.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I would hope the simple fact that we have to have specific Pokemon Scaling Guidelines would be enough to show that the two verses scale differently.

 

[LordAizenSama]

It's not Headcanon and Speculation, it's literally the reason they are considered Legendaries in the first place, and the reason they are revered and even worshiped as deities in some regions of the world.

This isn't a difficult concept.

When has a Legendary Pokemon been defeated by someone who wasn't a big-deal main character trainer, or a main movie villain with prep-time? Absolutely never. Red defeating Legendaries with his Pokémon is not at all the same thing as a wild Pikachu defeating an Articuno, so that's a rather deliberatedly misleading thing to state.

Being worshipped as a deity doesn't make you powerful.

And like I said theres multiple reasons pokemon can be considered a legendary. Rarity uniqueness and power. Manaphy has shown no great feats of power or even anything to suggest arbitarily scaling it.

Whether theyre a main villain or protagonist doesnt matter at all. The fact remains they can be defeated, and that is a undeniable truth no matter how you attempt to twist it.

 

[Thebluedash]

I'm going out to eat so can't reply to this for a bit. But note I am NOT trying to treat you guys like idiots as Dragon have said nor do I think I said anything of the sort.

 

[QuagsireTheLegend]

In this case i say it kind of matters, yeah, most legendaries are given that title by rarity.

Buuut, there is like a baseline for what Pokémon folk consider a deity, as they consider them extremely powerful beings, and keep in mind this is the same universe where some mons can bust mountains(Aggron and Tyranitar) and since neither of them with that much destructive power are worshipped as deities, one would assume legendaries are at least near the power of busting a mountain

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Exactly. There is absolutely no reason why humans would consider Manaphy a legend at all if it was just weak entirely. The fact its the other way around proves Manaphy is not on the bottom of the pokemonlist.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Being worshipped as a deity doesn't make you powerful."

Being considered a deity because of your power and worshiped as such does, just like how other Legendary Pokémon can have Royal titles like "King of the ___" to signify their superiority over all other Pokémon of that type.

>Rarity

Manaphy is a literal race and is considered a Legendary, so that's not true.

>Uniqueness

Define uniqueness. I would say that a Vanilluxe certainly qualifies for unique, in fact every single Pokémon species is unique in their own way and differs from the others.

>Power

Exactly, that's precisely why they are considered Legendary. Their power makes them living legends in comparison to all other Pokémon.

Also, if you agree that power can make you considered a Legendary, why is Tyranitar not considered one? I would argue that doing 7-A damage by walking is very powerful, yet the Tyranitar species isn't considered Legendary like the Manaphy.

... Unless 7-A feats aren't really impressive to Legendary Pokémon? Would make sense considering the sheer number of Tier 6 feats they have.

"Whether theyre a main villain or protagonist doesnt matter at all"

Uh, yes it does. You're argument was "They can be defeated by normal Pokémon", and only those wielded by main protagonists or Movie Villains who always have Prep-Time.

It's like saying "This new Dragon Ball villain is weak. They were beaten by an Earthling!"

Except that "Earthling" can mean anyone from Videl to Kuririn. Similarly, Pokémon Trainers can be anyone from Red and Cynthia, to Joey.

 

[Arigarmy]

"There is absolutely no reason why humans would consider Manaphy a legend at all if it was just weak entirely."

I think it was just established that rarity was the second option for why people consider it as such.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ari

That has already been debunked with there being a Manaphy race. Showing that Pokémon don't need to be singular anomalies to be considered Legendary.