Pokemon Scaling Issue (IMPORTANT)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This seriously needs to be reclosed.

At this point, the thread is going around in circles, its unmanagble, condescending attitudes and insults are flying around like crazy, users being argumentative and unreasonable.

Im sorry, but this just needs to be closed and stayed closed.

 

[Ryukama]

Why is it that people can wrap their heads around how wrong it is to scale all The Avengers to Celestials and make them Tier 2, even if there are numerous PIS examples of them being on those levels, yet can't with Pokemon?

 

[Kaltias]

@Dragon

But if you acknowledge that they own the legendary, you have to acknowledge that they weren't stomped. If they weren't stomped, they scale.

Except that scaling is an outlier because they consistently fight with people way below that. That's were the problem lies.

You can't scale a single character to hide the fact that it's an outlier.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So I will just say this. These guys are going to need an actual argument. Otherwise we are going to have to listen to them saying.

-Non Staff opinions do not matter.

-Rationality is lost here.

yadda, yadda, yadda.

All this on the other thread. So as much as I like Matt, it is best we give a detailed argument before we close.

 

[Megamangohan]

this is ded

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

But what about lower non tier 2 legend ?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Dragon
But if you acknowledge that they own the legendary, you have to acknowledge that they weren't stomped. If they weren't stomped, they scale.

Except that scaling is an outlier because they consistently fight with people way below that. That's were the problem lies.

You can't make only a person scale to mask the fact that it's an outlier.

The issue is that, their Pokemon do not scale to this. Their Pokemon surviving would be deemed PIS. However, them owning the Legendary would not be. They would only scale via a Pokemon. A Pokemon that is not even been confirmed to have been used on anyone.

 

[Imaginym]

If it's alright, I would like to know if anyone has any opinion on the matter of Poke Balls & Legendary Pokemon brought up by Team Galactic's research that I mentioned in my previous 2 posts in this thread. Sorry for any bother.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Cyrus never fought with his pokémon team against Dialga and Palkia, if he has captured Dialga and Palkia is thanks to the red chain.

just this.

 

[Ryukama]

But what about lower non tier 2 legend ?

Them being on Creation Trio or Arceus level is also just as ridiculous. These people are treated as supreme gods for a reason. No one is meant to scale to them, and if there is an event where lesser characters end up do, it can be chalked off as PIS. It's not unreasonable or unfair, and it's very well consistent with how we treat other verses. PIS and game mechanics will disrupt heirarchies clearly established within lore. That doesn't mean we should flow with these disruptions and give everyone ratings they have no business being.

 

[Kaltias]

If their Pokemon surviving is PIS, so is the Trainer owning the legendary. If the cause (Pokemon surviving) is PIS, then the effect (obtaining a legendary) is also PIS.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

With this logic, Lugia, Latias, Rayquaza, etc. are 2-B for fighting Dialga and Palkia in the Hoopa movie. And Lugia is two degrees of infinity stronger than Ho-Oh, and Kyurem is two degrees of infinity stronger than Reshiram and Zekrom.

^ This. And then if you decided that the parallel Legendaries actually should scale, let's take into account that M20 Ash's Pikachu fought Ho-Oh basically right after defeating Marshadow. And he was having trouble fighting against the fully-evolved untrained Pokémon that were fighting alongside Marshadow.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But the Problem is some trainers in canon naturally own these legendaries. See The Rainbow Rocket Episode, The Gen Vll Legends, Gen V in particular. You must catch Zekrom or Reshiram to even continue in the story. And the trainer Canonically has them. If you say they are PIS, I don't care, however, we cannot say Blare from Black and White does not have Zekrom or Reshiram as it has been canonically established that they do.

This is why I tell people to not push things.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Uh ryu meant Lily Groudon >=swampert but only if owned by ruby. Not

Kyogre=palkia.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

With this logic, Lugia, Latias, Rayquaza, etc. are 2-B for fighting Dialga and Palkia in the Hoopa movie. And Lugia is two degrees of infinity stronger than Ho-Oh, and Kyurem is two degrees of infinity stronger than Reshiram and Zekrom.

^ This. And then if you decided that the parallel Legendaries actually should scale, let's take into account that M20 Ash's Pikachu fought Ho-Oh basically right after defeating Marshadow. And he was having trouble fighting against the fully-evolved untrained Pokémon that were fighting alongside Marshadow.

Haven't really sided yet, but isn't M20 no cano? Further more, Lugia's never really fought Ho-oh though eother...

 

[Imaginym]

But the Problem is some trainers in canon naturally own these legendaries. See The Rainbow Rocket Episode, The Gen Vll Legends, Gen V in particular. You must catch Zekrom or Reshiram to even continue in the story. And the trainer Canonically has them. If you say they are PIS, I don't care, however, we cannot say Blare from Black and White does not have Zekrom or Reshiram as it has been canonically established that they do.
This is why I tell people to not push things.

I agree with this, & it's also a large part of why I'm curious about peoples' stances on the setting's research on the effects of Poke Balls on Legendary Pokemon. Sorry to keep going on about this.

 

[Kaltias]

I'm not saying that they don't have the Pokemon. I'm saying that having it should be considered PIS, because you can't acknowledge the fact that they have it but ignore that this would scale to others.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So do we not give them statistics for those Pokemon? What do we do about battles involving them? Are like Dialga and Palkia suddenly High 6-C or? Because, now we have to figure out what to do.

 

[Ryukama]

Here's the bottom line, no Pokemon character who isn't Tier 2 already should at all get upgrade. Matt, Kaltias, Cal, Dark649, I and many others have exhausted my reasons why nonstop at this point.

I was generous enough giving Multiversal Magikarp any sort of time of day instead of just blowing it off, let alone extensively discussing it as I did.

People are entitled to their opinions or decisions regarding this, I've given mine and am refraining from commenting here any further. Unfollowing this thread.

 

[NeoZex6399]

I seem to recall that Solgaleo/Lunala wanted to be part of the player's pokémon team, and Zekrom and Reshiram were testing the protagonist.

 

[Kepekley23]

I'll also unfollow this.

 

[Imaginym]

I still assert it's possible Legendary Pokemon captured in Poke Balls, being unable to use their full power as Team Galactic's research suggests, might be comparable to some other Pokemon, which could help deal with scaling issues involving those such Legendary Pokemon battling non-Legendary Pokemon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I seem to recall that Solgaleo/Lunala wanted to be part of the player's pokémon team, and Zekrom and Reshiram were testing the protagonist.

In those cases however, we can write it off as the Legendary holding back.

 

[PaChi2]

Whatever tier they had | Whatever tier with Zekrom

This is Dragon's proposal.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This needs to be closed again. And stayed closed.

 

[Kaltias]

So do we not give them statistics for those Pokemon? What do we do about battles involving them? Are like Dialga and Palkia suddenly High 6-C or? Because, now we have to figure out what to do.

No

We ignore the fact that they possess said legendary because it's PIS

No, they are absent because capturing them is PIS.

That's my stance on this.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Kukui currently the thread is civil, stop the "close" .

 

[NeoZex6399]

In short, I agree with Dragon's proposals.

Also trained pokemon being 2-B is... dumb.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But what if said character notably uses the Pokemon no matter what?

N notably uses Reshiram/Zekrom in battle.

Blare does the same.

Rainbow Rocket Giovanni notably uses Mewtwo in battle.

While I don't mind the tier upgrades, we can't just take away abilities like that just because they can't be Tier 2. We are a indexing site correct? How would it look if we just flat out took away N's Reshiram all of a sudden. Suddenly, his Reshiram cannot be used, despite it in all canons being an active member of his team.

 

[Amexim]

All I am saying is this:

No matter what anyone says, in order to catch the Legendaries, the Protagonist must either weaken them or use Master Balls. Right?

To say that it's impossible to weaken or harm a legendary pokémon is to deny NUMEROUS examples of such bullshit happening. And, as ridiculous as it is and as how bad of a plot hole it is, it still happened, no matter what anyone says. To deny the fact that these trainers caught the legends at all to deny what happened in the story, which defeats the purpose of even having profiles on them, as we can deny anything that "sounds ridiculous". Just like that, Island Level pokémon are gone-- because them being that is "ridiculous" right?

No. I recognize how ridiculous it sounds, how ridiculous it is, and I wholeheartedly agree. But! There needs to be a rational reason for these things to be dismissed, and I don't think that there should be blanket scaling for this sort of thing.

Personally I haven't actually decided on what the scaling should be, but I hope that we can calmly work through every nook and cranny to see if it works for each instance we can find. Because everyone has mostly listed arguments of incredulity for the most part, and dismissed every instance because "X means that Y is true, and that would be ridiculous".

I mean, I think it's ridiculous too, but if the champions and other trainers scale to the Protagonist, who has the legendary pokémon, (which I don't think they do, I will explain why in a second), then so be it. It's facts. Stupid, but true.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No it isnt civil and this discussion isn't going anywhere at all. Everyones made their points, they disagreed. Enough is enough.

I can agree with dragons proposal but other than that, this discussion needs to end and never be brought up again. Stretched out far longer than it should have.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

>despite all canons.


Except whe.he had zekrom ovo .

 

[Imaginym]

In short, I agree with Dragon's proposals.
Also 2-B pokémon trainers is... dumb.

I agree also. There are a lot more Pokemon comparable to most non-CT Pokemon than there are Pokemon that are comparable to the CT. Even with the possibility of Poke Balls preventing a Legendary Pokemon using its full power, or Pokemon trained by the prodigious protagonist, it seems... less plausible that even especially strong Pokemon could scale to 2-B when most are around Tier 6 or 5 at best, or even to a severely lowered CT member. Admittedly, maybe I'm arguing from incredulity here, so I'd take my agreement with a grain of salt, given my own reasons.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Please kill this thread. It's exhausting.

 

[Megamangohan]

I mean we do have 2-A digimon trainers

@Dragon, It was a joke, sorry

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I mean we do have 2-A digimon trainers

Don't get me started. Like seriously. Do you even know what you are talking about. Just no....You have an issue, Message Wall me or create another thread.

 

[NeoZex6399]

I agree with Matt