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Pokemon Scaling Issue (IMPORTANT)

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The real cal howard said:
Trainers can't train their Pokémon to the level of GODS, no matter if they're Cynthia, Lucas, Platinum, because they always go back to being comparable to people literally multiple degrees of infinity weaker in a continuous story. And before people bring up that Lucario, his story ended right after that feat, it was a completely separate continuity, and lost a fight (without it being on purpose) once.
Click to expand...
THIS

This is the exact thing that was needed. Actual arguments. And funny, that is the exact same thing I said in the other thread, and why I belive is inconsistent enough to not scale.
 
I absolutely disagree with this for the reasons that have already been made clear by everyone else.
 
But literally no one brought up catching arceys.

This thread is disgusting, everyone to some extent full of shit, putting kinda of words in others mouth. Straw man.

Some have no idea what is being discussed.


Amexim, dragon. Make a new thread. List all points in the op.
 
Please pardon me. I'm just wondering about the stance on this dialogue. Sorry for any bother, thank you for any answers.

This is a link to a transcript/text dump of the text of Pokemon Platinum. https://gist.github.com/superusercode/4fcc41719deef5d5c21cca0bd295118a

Please excuse the slightly jumbled state of the text within the document. Here are some quotes.

Cyrus: The Master Ball is the ultimate Poké Ball. It will unfailingly catch any Pokémon in the wild. But it is not anything that I require. Unlike you Trainers, I do not make Pokémon my friends or partners. Unlike other Team Galactic members, I don't use Pokémon as tools. Instead, I make the power of Pokémon my own.

For some reason, Cyrus claims to not need the Master Ball.

In-game, there are reports entered in a PC at a Team Galactic base.

Which report would you like to read?

Some say the universe originated\nfrom a massive explosion. Similarly, Sinnoh is thought to have been formed by an explosion in ancient times. Needless to say, the explosion came from the power of a Pokémon. The Pokémon must have been the mythical creature considered a deity by the ancients. Our aim is not to capture the mythical Pokémon, but to obtain its power... The PC entry ends there...

The mythical Pokémon... According to myths, the Pokémon created Sinnoh with its power. However, capturing the Pokémon with a Poké Ball prevents it from using its full power... But with the Red Chain, the Pokémon can be shackled, and its power can be used without restraint... The PC entry ends there...

The Red Chain... The Pokémon of the three lakes and Mt. Coronet are somehow connected. Capturing the Pokémon of the lakes will free the Pokémon of Mt. Coronet. From the Pokémon of the lakes, crystals can be extracted to create a Red Chain. Using that Red Chain, the mythical Pokémon can be summoned and shackled\rto do as we command... The PC entry ends there...

The part of all this I feel is important are the words "However, capturing the Pokémon with a Poké Ball prevents it from using its full power..."

As strange as that may be, if Cyrus's Legendaries are indeed sent out from Poke Balls within US/UM, wouldn't that suggest that they're not at their full power? I think it seems possible that they are when captured in that battle.
 
I feel like a lot of this confusion and drama stems from composite profiles stretching several mediums. In my opinion, we wouldn't be getting 2-B trainers if pokemon profiles had different keys for game generations | anime | movies| manga series each with thier own respective tiers based on feats in those mediums.
 
Even if I mispeak, it's because I'm trying to type as fast as I can-- as angrily as I can before this thread closes without a single bit of discussion. I think Transonic Caterpie and Large Island Level ANYTHING IN POKÉMON IS RIDICULOUS. BUT IS IT FALSE? NO!
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
The real cal howard said:
Trainers can't train their Pokémon to the level of GODS, no matter if they're Cynthia, Lucas, Platinum, because they always go back to being comparable to people literally multiple degrees of infinity weaker in a continuous story. And before people bring up that Lucario, his story ended right after that feat, it was a completely separate continuity, and lost a fight (without it being on purpose) once.
Click to expand...
THIS

This is the exact thing that was needed. Actual arguments. And funny, that is the exact same thing I said in the other thread, and why I belive is inconsistent enough to not scale.
Click to expand...
Most people found Cal's point like, self-explanatory. Which is why everyone was saying that there's no way these Pokemon scale to Arceus/CT and that it's game mechanics/PIS.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
Uh kep, litterally hundreds of instances with dozens not being contradicted.

Red (Pokémon Origins) and Lucario (Pokemon 7) being made.
Click to expand...
Addressing the former, because I already addressed the latter.

Red's Charizard fighting Mewtwo isn't an outlier for the same reason SSJG Goku fighting Beerus isn't an outlier.

Want me to elaborate?

Flying brute with energy attacks gets his butt kicked by a cat god. All seems lost until flying brute gets a new form (important part/crux of my argument) and fights evenly with cat god in an epic fight until flying brute succeeds in his task. Arc's over.
 
Arceus getting injured by a lot of Pokémon in the movie is a major plot point, we see the creature dying to them and the silver water.
 
Master Ball can totally capture Arceus. That's not at-all game mechanics.

List of things that the Master Ball can also capture apparently:

  • Reinhard Heydrich
  • The God Emperor of Mankind
  • The Chaos King
  • Pegasus Seiya
  • Beerus the Destroyer
  • Dormammu
  • Darkseid
  • The Ainur
  • Odin
  • Galactus
Pokémon can solo so many verses by throwing balls at them.
 
Okay

@Ryu and Matt

I think you missed one point J-Man was trying to explain. They were thinking about scaling some instances in which trainers have canonically fought Legendaries or caught them. Scaling only those trainers to that particular legendary. Of course nobody scales to the CT, but there are other legendaries fought by trainers. Any thoughts? Outlier?
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
The real cal howard said:
Trainers can't train their Pokémon to the level of GODS, no matter if they're Cynthia, Lucas, Platinum, because they always go back to being comparable to people literally multiple degrees of infinity weaker in a continuous story. And before people bring up that Lucario, his story ended right after that feat, it was a completely separate continuity, and lost a fight (without it being on purpose) once.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Literally said this as well.

Until Caulifa and DBS was used as an argument somehow.
 
Cynthia's Garchomp wouldn't be stronger than Giratina. I never said that. And that's not going to happen. She might not even scale! All I'm saying is that TRAINERS can fight LEGENDS and ONLY trainers who have fought legends and trainers who scale to said trainers (not Youngster Joey, but MAYBE Cynthia IF AT ALL, but again, I think the legend wielding trainer stomps anyone who isn't holding a legend-- unless the legend either trainer has is weak or something-- you see my point) would get the ratings. It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is. Someone has to prove that all feats individually relating to the trainers are illegitimate before calling it an outlier or PIS. Otherwise every verse can get downgraded because anything can be an outlier of everyone thinks it's ridiculous enough.
 
Lore states no Pokémon, other than the Lake Trio and the Lunar Duo, among other exceptions, scales to the CT.

That is all the objective argument you need to prove this is all game mechanics and PIS. If we were to take any, ANY of that literally, we would have to upgrade literally every single trainer to 2-B.

Before you say this is not what you're trying to do, it's what you would HAVE to do if you took your own logic seriously. Any trainer can reach this level, afterall.

This discussion is not productive.
 
Spooderman should be Solar System level. He defeated Firelord, which is brought up all the time in the comics and guidebooks as something he did. 100% legit.
 
PaChi2 said:
Okay

@Ryu and Matt

I think you missed one point J-Man was trying to explain. They were thinking about scaling some instances in which trainers have canonically fought Legendaries or caught them. Scaling only those trainers to that particular legendary. Of course nobody scales to the CT, but there are other legendaries fought by trainers. Any thoughts? Outlier?
Click to expand...
^this
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
All Pokemon continuities are canon. Lucario is lucario.
Click to expand...
Now let's see a Lucario scales to a fodder pokemon that attacked Arceus in the movie, by this every Pokémon single profile is 2-B, that's dumb scaling to me.
 
Matt

Why? Why is it an outlier? What evidence do you have either in story or a feat or statement, something to JUSTIFY why it's an outlier.
 
Amexim said:
Matt

Why? Why is it an outlier? What evidence do you have either in story or a feat or statement, something to JUSTIFY why it's an outlier.
Click to expand...
They get consistently kicked around by Low 6-Bs.
 
Dark649 said:
Now let's see a Lucario scales to a fodder pokemon that attacked Arceus in the movie, by this every Pokémon single profile is 2-B, that's dumb scaling to me.
Click to expand...
Bumping this, also we did not accepted Spiderman defeating Silver Carnage, same for this.
 
Amexim said:
Cynthia's Garchomp wouldn't be stronger than Giratina. I never said that. And that's not going to happen. She might not even scale! All I'm saying is that TRAINERS can fight LEGENDS and ONLY trainers who have fought legends and trainers who scale to said trainers (not Youngster Joey, but maybe Cynthia if at all) would get the ratings.
Click to expand...
Saying she wouldnt scale is ridiculous when the player literally fights the league after the whole team plot.

Which also disproves this. If Cynthia was actually that level she would have easily stomped Team Galactic all on her own. Matter of fact, all region champions would be doing this to teams if the protags scaled to legendaries. And considering for example Alder lost to N and Reshiram, but the player somehow wins....yeah thats easily BS.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
Yeah but did said trainers? No.

Is Saiyan saga Goku tier 2?
Click to expand...
A trainer who starts off as 9-B and somehow ascends countless infinities, all the way to 2-B, according to this at least, is also not Tier 2.
 
Kukui, that argument doesn't make those trainers weak. What is Goku bullet level now? No. He isn't, and for the same reasons. Any trainer that fought against the Champion/Legend Wielding trainers/protagonists who lost can be assumed to be stomped. Any victory over them, depending on the circumstances, might either be legitimate (in rare instances that requires A LOT), or lower end outlier showings for the stronger foe. That's not a strong enough argument.
 
@Ryukama

And yet we have Matt strawmaning like crazy. Something as simple as saying "is inconsistent becaus this and this" was asked from the start, yet the guy only got strawman after strawman. The dude literally just wanted ro debate, as he bimself finds this absurd, but couldn't find something to contradict it.

Edit: And yes, he kinda was a jerk, but it was because he wanted(tried, clrealy failed) to get his opinion up, but the thread was closed. When reopened, strawman after strawman. Even I, who mostly try to be peaceful with anyone, would get mad at that.
 
If it weren't for the fact both situations are as different as Graham's Number is big, that would be a valid argument.
 
With this logic, Lugia, Latias, Rayquaza, etc. are 2-B for fighting Dialga and Palkia in the Hoopa movie. And Lugia is two degrees of infinity stronger than Ho-Oh, and Kyurem is two degrees of infinity stronger than Reshiram and Zekrom.
 
Because Goku actually fights the said opponents that make whatever tier, literally all the time.

A trainer going to gyms, trials, beating random trainers, means they're only that level. Not so suddenly jump degrees of infinity to beat pokemon on THAT level.
 
There are two possible ways to handle this.

The current one is, my Froslass beating Giratina is an outlier so no one scales.

The other one is, it's legit and everyone who beats my Froslass is >> Giratina. So people scale and 2-B every trainer. If they don't scale, then the 2-B scaling becomes an outlier as it contradicts literally everything else that happens in the story.

So if the protagonist or whoever else scale, you end up scaling everyone to god tiers, which contradicts them being god tiers to begin with
 
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