Pokemon: Our Non-Legendary Profiles Aren't Good

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I believe a lot of Trainers called Beedrill and Butterfree weak in the actual games. Something along the lines of "they evolve fast, but are weak".

Worse case scenario, Pseudo-Legendaries would be at least Town level for being >>> Corsola.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Dark. I don't recall Beedrill being seen as weak (I almost accidentally made a really bad pun), given that it made people scared of it in the anime, in which Butterfree scales. I'd say it would be scaled to Pikachu's 8-C feat tho.

@SD. If you were to name some of Ash's strongest Pokémon each gen (discounting Goodra, who's a Pseudo), you'd get Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, and Greninja. Continuing, I've given the fact that it's clearly not a coincidence Game Freak had pseudos be what they are. And we've used fanon terms before. Karmic Retribution and Super Saiyan God anyone? Besides, there's examples even outside of pure stats in which I've listed. I've even forgotten that they're commonly listed right before legendaries at the end of the Pokedex. While this isn't a connection, it supports the idea that Game Freak did that on purpose.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal Ignoring the fact that that is only in anime, you are ignoring quite an array of pkmn, like Krookodile, Pikachu, or Snorlax, all of which, by being this strong, contradict the idea that this is because they are starters or pseudos. That's correct, they intentionally made a 600 stat pokemon per each generation, which is sadly game mechanics. We've used fanon names, for things that actually exist. Uh, are we seriously using their place in the pokedex to determine their power? If so, Charmander is next to Venusaur, Dragonite is closer to Mewtwo than the Legendary Birds are, and etc. Yes, they have a connection, a connection we only exists game mechanics wise. They are there, due to being strongest non-legendaries in game, but game mechanics have no value outside game mechanics.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No. We're using that a connection, among literally five others. Which you still haven't addressed yet. You're calling for a lack of a Word of God when there's a heavy implication that there is. And Pikachu is likely not as strong as them, along with Snorlax or Krookodile, who are definitely not as strong.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

About what Cal said about Beedrills scaring people in the anime, shouldn't human-Pokemon relationships in the anime be considered as valid, as they can give information necessary to scale them. Sure, the anime isn't "canon", but how are we supposed to guess how people see/feel about Pokemon in the game, especially in early generations where the NPCs barely say anything? Comments of characters about certain Pokemon in the anime can be useful.

 

[SomebodyData]

Ye, five other game mechanic connections. One could even argue that the connecting is getting absurd now, using the pokedex number entries and what not. And even then, the connection there is arbitrary, limited only to game mechanics and the like. About Pikachu not being as strong as them, you do remember how he choose several pokemon over Inferape in the final Sinnoh Pokemon League fight? Now that I think about it, while it is true that they are stronger than various other Pokemon members, how does that mean that they scale to one another? It would only mean that the starters are stronger than most Pokemon in their own respective region, which makes sense, being final evolutions and all.

Also what are the other 3 connections?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

How is placement in the Pokedex Game Mechanics? Tell me that. That is there OFFICIAL dex locations.

 

[SomebodyData]

No, I mustn't have been clear, if we do assume it is a connection of power (in which case it would mean the dex is organized by power, and not say, when they were discovered or something like a normal encyclopedia), it would only be confirmed (though massively contradicted) to scale game mechanics wise.

Though what I find rather interesting is that you don't seem to disagree with this logic, do you think power correlates with dex position Dragon?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Nope I don't otherwise Electabuzz, Jynx and the likes would be higher. I'm just correcting a small irrelevant point. I honestly feel Pseudos scale to each other. However, I'll let Cal and Azzy argue that. I got my 7-C Haxorus so I'm a happy camper.

 

[SomebodyData]

Ok lol

 

[DerpCity]

Unpopular opinion, but I think Pokemon is too consistently inconsistent to properly scale normal Pokemon for, and we should just return to Legendary/Mythical Pokemon, the Ultra Beasts, and maybe a few other notable Pokemon. Most of the series' power levels are determined by game mechanics and outside of the games... Well, you get Arceus being defeated by meteors and Ash's Pikachu getting rekt by the likes of Snivy and Surskit.

I was going to write more but I accidentally closed the tab so I lost it.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Unpopular opinion, but I think Pokemon is too consistently inconsistent to properly scale normal Pokemon for, and we should just return to Legendary/Mythical Pokemon, the Ultra Beasts, and maybe a few other notable Pokemon. Most of the series' power levels are determined by game mechanics and outside of the games... Well, you get Arceus being defeated by meteors and Ash's Pikachu getting rekt by the likes of Snivy and Surskit.
I was going to write more but I accidentally closed the tab so I lost it.

Not gonna happen. We literally just brought them back. We simply have to make them work.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Derp we can only do that as a last resort (One I really hope does not happen)

 

[Pikachu942]

I agree with Cal and Azzy, they make the most sense to me.

 

[DerpCity]

I'm aware that we aren't going to remove them any time soon, its just how I feel about the topic.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

If it's possible for me to add something to the discussion: people also forget that depending on which continuity or source material we're talking about: uncompletely evolved or "weak" Pokemon can actually turn out to equal if not outmatch Pokemon that are generally considered among the most powerful.

Easy example is Ash's Pikachu who beated the likes of Regice, Tyranitar and Metagross -- and sure, it's a "Well Trained" one but that's such a variable statement open to interpretation. And that's not a problem because depending on which continuity they actually give you the impression that training and perseverence can trump the notion of inherent stats hence weak Pokemon beating up fully evolved ones whereas if we had to appeal to game mechanics and the scaling surrounding it such a circumstance would rarely happen. Only under certain conditions could a Pikachu wreck a Tyranitar let alone survive a couple rounds yet in the anime they are way more versatile.

Like, I am honestly not pleased with Greninja's stat in VBW since I'm convinced that they are not a Pokemon to underestimate but if we go by the "raw" feats then yeah we get a rather unimpressive stat for Greninja whereas if we went all the way with powerscaling Greninja would be on par with, probably, pseudo-legendaries sooooo it's difficult to draw the line of when the powerscaling shouldn't continue.

Also a small add to the pseduo thing: if we argue that pseudo Pokemon are at a higher level due to being overall difficult Pokemon to train and are perceived as very powerful Pokemon overall, then what about other Pokemon like Bisharp and Volcarona who also require tons of levels before they evolve?

 

[RadicalMrR]

"Corsola is in danger of being overhunted by Toxapex, who is never expressed to be a particularly powerful pokemon.

Garchomp has no natural predators and is treated as an obscenely powerful pokemon."

If stuff like this was said in universe than I 100% agree with scaling.

I also think every Pokemon should be scaled to Magikarp's Dura since he is canonically the weakest Pokemon.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Radical

Yeah. Pokedex entries state stuff like Garchomp being a top predator that literally swallows entire flocks of flying pokemon whole, while Toxapex is stated to eat Corsola, and the rate at which they do so forced some of them to be put in Aether's conservation center.

Is it Magikarp? I thought Sunkern canonically became the weakest? Doesn't really matter either way, since they're both bottom of the barrel.

 

[Cropfist]

Sunkern was only the weakest via stats.

 

[RadicalMrR]

@Azzy I believe this song answers ur question.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Funny enough, that video can be used as evidence that the fossil Pokémon existed around the same time, and they can be scaled to Rampardos without possibility. XD.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

lol

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Did I seriously just watch that....?

 

[SomebodyData]

Hey what's the tally, and Azzy, what's your thoughts on what I said?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hey what's the tally, and Azzy, what's your thoughts on what I said?

On which thing?

 

[SomebodyData]

For the most part, I'm ok with scaling based on their position in the Pokemon world (your example, for example)

But disagree with the starter scales to other starters, and pseudos scale to other pseudos.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't really have any opinion on starters, so I'll let you guys decide that.

Pseudos likely shouldn't scale to each other just for being pseudos, but I'm fairly certain most are positioned at the top of the in-universe food chain, anyway.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

By the way, I broke the OP into paragraphs because I got complaints of it being an unreadable wall of text.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Thanks.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we have previous regulations in the Editing Rules and Pokémo pages that likely need to be rewritten according to the results of this discussion.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'll take care of that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Amexim]

@Golden

Stats are arbitrary game mechanics. We can't use them to determine rankings.

Yeah, but we can certainly determine what that Pokémon Excel in. I mean, Forretrus should have higher durability than it's attack, right? The hard thing is the nature of Pokemon's scaling. In the show, and games, Pokémon can have varying tier levels-- being able to box with legendaries to fighting megas as a Pikachu... I think it's impossible for these sheets to make sense without head Canon, because all of these Pokemon's feats are generally unknown without vague and contradictory Pokedex entries. I believe it's just smarter to go over a general average "what this pokémon LIKELY is like in the wild" instead of scaling all Lucario's off of trained Lucario's. Unless you're trained, you are NOT swapping hands with a Legendary. Head Canon here is all we've got. Sorry if I'm reiterating anything someone said already, but honestly, all pokémon without confirmed calcs for the average pokemon-- not Riley's or, any other trainer's-- we put a likely in front of everything. No non-legendary pokémon should be above City-- maybe even Large Island or at absolute most Mountain level-- but anything else, hell no. We also have to think about the size of these actual places. Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh are all based on relatively small places in Japan, country level Groudon-- maybe planetary if the lore on Primal Groudon and stuff is actually true. You follow the thought process?

 

[PaChi2]

About beedrill, I think in-universe it is much stronger than what you give it credit, even Manga!Giovanni uses one.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I have created a Salamence profile which basically serves as a base for how I want (and it seems that others agree) on how this revision should go. Top of the food chain pseudos at 7-A and their megas at "At least", high tiers somewhere in the 7-C range and the megas at 7-B+, starters at 7-C or 7-B (depending on if we scale from Charizard or Typhlosion), and low tiers at 8-C.

 

[Cropfist]

It does not seem everyone agrees with the pseudo-legendary and starter scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. The discussion seems to have stalled here. It is an important topic, so that is not good.

 

[RadicalMrR]

@Cal Azzy said pseudos shouldnt scale to eachother.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Azzy said they shouldn't scale to that alone @Cal. But they are top of the food chain, so that could be used as support. Azzy's opinion on the Salamance files would be nice.