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Pokemon: God Tiers Ability Revisions

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Assaltwaffle

Assaltwaffle

VS Battles
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Nope. Not the tier. 2-B looks pretty good.

But oh man; the Powers and Abilities of these guys are, for lack of a better word, wanked. Let's break down what and why this stuff is wrong.

Overall
Everything in here is just a misconception of the powers of all the Pokemon God Tiers and is pervasive throughout most or all of their profiles.

Conceptual Manipulation: This is probably the biggest offender here. The Creation Trio have never shown the ability to manipulate their concept. They embody it, but they do not destroy/attack conceptually. Same for Arceus, but he only created them and doesn't embody them.

Void Manipulation: What Palkia, Dialga, and Arceus all show is Space-Time destruction. They do not use a Void to achieve this, they simply use powers they have already displayed to destroy space-time and thus objects within it. This is not separate Void Manipulation. Even if it was some kind of extra erasure, it would be Existence Erasure, not Void Manipulation.

Immortality: Type 4 for all, Type 9 for Arceus. They are not gods; they are Pokemon with god-like powers. They are never called gods by anyone other than star-struck humans, nor ever hinted at being immortal because of such a title.

Immunity to Soul Manipulation: It was never stated that any of the CT "predate souls" to my knowledge. Also, even if they did, they likely still obtained one when such souls came into being. But I still ask for the "predating souls" part, since I don't remember Pokemon ever referencing souls.

Causality Manipulation & Acausality: "Distorting natural law" needs to be put into context here. The CT using their powers to distort the world is not causality manipulation. It is just Space, Time, and Antimatter manipulation, respectively. Causality or causal progression is never broken, and Arceus is directly subject to causality, as shown by the entire plot of Arceus and the Jewel of Life.

"Spirit" Destruction: Lumping Knowledge, Will, and Emotion destruction into one. Basically, no. Dialga and Palkia have the ability to "make a world without spirit" and "destroy spirit". Why can they do this? By destroying life and consciousness. This is simply universal destruction that ends all life, not any special "spirit"-attacking ability.

Immeasurable Speed: Comes from Dialga. This just makes zero sense. Dialga can't travel "beyond time" or "exceed time". That is like me saying I can travel "beyond myself" or "exceed myself". This doesn't work, while Infinite works better.

Arceus
I'm sorry llama-god. Time to step down.

Power Nullification: The parts from the TCG abilities are fine. However, I don't remember anything implying it made Destiny Tower.

Non-Corporeality: Never shown. Unlike the CT, which have shown Non-Corporeal Forms, I don't think Arceus, even with all its plates, has shown this.

Dream Manipulation: Never implied to be the "booming voice". This is speculation, not implication. Arceus is never mentioned here.

Use of All Moves: Absolutely never shown. Not shown in movies/anime and its in-game movepool reflects this fact. I don't know where this comes from outside of speculation.

Resistance to Telepathy: "Resisted the Telepathic abilities of Sheena and her ancestor." I should hope so? A 4-D character resists 3-D hax by default. If Arceus had bee hurt by this there would be a problem.

Magnetism Manipulation: Was it stated that Arceus himself made the Mountain Magnetic? This seems to be a natural property.

Darkness Manipulation: What "darkness" attack is this? Foul Play? Nothing is elaborated on here.

Mind, Memory, Will, Empathic, and Illusion Manipulation: Has he ever used the Lake Trio's abilities?

Information Manipulation: See above and see the Lake Trio's section.

Law Manipulation: No. Unless literally every creator god gets this, neither does Arceus. He makes space and time. This happens for all creators.

Physics Manipulation: No reasoning whatsoever is given here.

Power Mimicry/Absorption: When he has taken someone's powers from them and put them into a plate?

Chaos Manipulation/Embodiment: Spawning into/from primordial chaos =/= embodying it, nor has Arceus used it.

Attacks Incorporeals: His Omnipotent ability lets him hit all types, including Ghost. But unless we give all Pokemon, save normal types, this ability, Arceus doesn't get it either.

Resistance to Power Mimicry: This is 100% game mechanics. Abilities that would otherwise break the game cannot be copied, and thus Multitype falls into this. Also Silvally should never be mentioned. RKS System is never tied directly to Arceus, even though it sounds the same. A cheeky nod to the intention? Sure. A legit comparison/indication? No.

Palkia/Dialga
These two are similar enough that I can tackle them together, though they do have some individual differences.

Non-Corporeality: This only applies when they are not in their avatars. Their avatar forms are perfectly corporeal.

Palkia - Healing Negation: Massive NLF here. Heal Block, at best, stops Deoxys' Recover, which is Low-Mid (High-Mid not applicable here since that takes a ton of time and is not the move Recover).

Most other significant issues fall into the Overall section.

Giratina
Non-Corporeality: See Palkia/Dialga.

Resistance to Mind Manipulation: The Red Chains were not used on Giratina if I recall correctly. The Capture Stylus needs context and could easily be similar to the Red Chains or be merely game mechanics.

Power Nullification: Shadow Force doesn't belong here. Shadow Force allows Giratina to disappear and leave the physical world temporarily, which allows attacks and effects to miss. This isn't special nullification. The other two abilities here, however, are legit.

Power Negation: A new world can't be made because Giratina just interferes. He doesn't have some special power to make this impossible outright.

Destroying Things in the Distortion World: Literally just Dialga glowing as evidence.

Physics Manipulation: See Arceus.

Lake Trio
These three are close together, and I'm trying to not have 10 sections. Pretty much zero explanations for all of these abilities, but let's look at the big offenders. I'm just going to list these off, since it's basically just "no evidence" for all of them. Please remember, anything that applies to these guys in "Overall" should be noted here.

Mesprit: Power Mimicry, Reality Warping, and Soul Manipulation.

Azelf: Reality Warping and Soul Manipulation.

Uxie: Reality Warping, Information Manipulation, Telepathy (not a gripe on justification but the evidence picture has a solid 10 pixels), Endure (massive NLF here and needs a major explanation), and Soul Manipulation.

Conclusion
Things need a big clean-up. Ranging from lack of justification, misinterpretation, or exaggeration of an existing ability, these guys need some serious love.

They would also be subject to the new Concept Manipulation standards, falling under Type 3, and any new standards agreed upon with the Abstract Existence thread.
 
First Kirby and now Pokemon, RIP Cal. But I guess this seems reasonable.
 
"Darkness Manipulation: What "darkness" attack is this? Foul Play? Nothing is elaborated on here. "

Most likely the move Punishment as well as the Dark Plate
 
Cropfist said:
Poison resistance is from Ghost-types like Giratina naturally resisting Poison-type attacks.
Click to expand...
Oop. Forgot about basic typing resistance. I'll remove it.
 
I should also mention that "spirit", as defined in Pokemon, is just referring to emotions.

Cyrus' entire motivation is that he finds the human spirit flawed and unnecessary, because he found himself more comfortable around machines than humans or Pokemon.

He also considers his own spirit flawed for his own anger at his failure, and comments that the US/UM protagonist has a "powerful spirit" due to their desire to protect others.

Willpower and knowledge have absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
Pointing out but agreeing with the op when there quite a few obvious misconception or misunderstandings on ops part bad.

Wait for cal or some pokemon expert before agreeing.
 
Everyone's sleeping on the job. LOL JK, rest well Ever and Cal.
 
@Cal

Go to bed and then come back; no need to put yourself through a restless night.

I'm shutting my computer down and hitting the sack after this post and Ever is about to follow suit. We can wait.
 
A few things that are so obvious may point out itself.

>Immunity to Soul Manipulation: ' they likely still obtained one when such souls came into being:. But I still ask for the "predating souls" part, since I don't remember Pokemon ever referencing souls.

Mate that would be a assumption. Also that wouldnt matter because the creation trio can obviously function without a soul as the thing predates and thus already had functioned without a soul. For the sake of the debate assuming the creation trio got a soul for some reason the soul would be arbitrary. Almost as arbitrary as destroying a pin on a shirt maybe a sticker man.

Also ghost pokemon? Marowak? Ghost from be and eterna? Latios maybe the maiden peak ghost?. Pokemon uses spirit and ghosts though the word is quite synonymous with soul and that. Although unless ya meant souls under that context and not generally.

Obviously ya havent watched the movie with the guratina and shaymin as destroying things from the distortion world and effecting a parallel a plot device and ya should at least watch a movie if ya wanna make a downgrade. Or ask for an example man because going straight from that and making a downgrade without even checking or asking is bad.
 
"Obviously ya havent watched the movie with the guratina and shaymin as destroying things from the distortion world and effecting a parallel a plot device and ya should at least watch a movie if ya wanna make a downgrade. Or ask for an example man because going straight from that and making a downgrade without even checking or asking is bad."

The problem is that the page just links to an image of Dialga glowing. It needs to be much, much more clear.
 
Overall

Conceptual Manipulation: This is probably the biggest offender here. The Creation Trio have never shown the ability to manipulate their concept. They embody it, but they do not destroy/attack conceptually. Same for Arceus, but he only created them and doesn't embody them.

  • I actually agree with this one. Except for Arceus, who's been shown to shape a portion the already created concepts of time and space and antimatter into another Dialga, Palkia, and/or Giratina. Furthermore, I personally beleive it's a matter of it being what makes the most sense. Palkia exists as the concept of space? Check. Palkia has a stupid degree of spatial manipulation? Check. Most people would associate the two. Plus, pretty sure no one has ever used it as a means to say that they can f*** with their respective concepts, but to the degree of the abilities they've shown.
Void Manipulation: What Palkia, Dialga, and Arceus all show is Space-Time destruction. They do not use a Void to achieve this, they simply use powers they have already displayed to destroy space-time and thus objects within it. This is not separate Void Manipulation. Even if it was some kind of extra erasure, it would be Existence Erasure, not Void Manipulation.

  • Read the manga. Dialga and Palkia explicitly create a void when they're fighting, and it continues to expand.
Immortality: Type 4 for all, Type 9 for Arceus. They are not gods; they are Pokemon with god-like powers. They are never called gods by anyone other than star-struck humans, nor ever hinted at being immortal because of such a title.

  • Outright false. I don't even think I need to go into detail on this one.
Immunity to Soul Manipulation: It was never stated that any of the CT "predate souls" to my knowledge. Also, even if they did, they likely still obtained one when such souls came into being. But I still ask for the "predating souls" part, since I don't remember Pokemon ever referencing souls.

  • The Lake Trio created the souls of the multiverse. The Creation Trio come before that. Also, souls are so common in Pokemon that it's not even funny.
Causality Manipulation & Acausality: "Distorting natural law" needs to be put into context here. The CT using their powers to distort the world is not causality manipulation. It is just Space, Time, and Antimatter manipulation, respectively. Causality or causal progression is never broken, and Arceus is directly subject to causality, as shown by the entire plot of Arceus and the Jewel of Life.

  • I don't know where you got "natural" law from, because the profiles state causal law. That comes from those textdumps that were released on the JP website. I had Reppu translate it for me for extra measure. Acausality comes from a number of things. Arceus lolnope'ing the events of PMD2, whatever's on Giratina's profile about it, every one of them no-selling the side effects to their causal law distorting basic attacks.
"Spirit" Destruction: Lumping Knowledge, Will, and Emotion destruction into one. Basically, no. Dialga and Palkia have the ability to "make a world without spirit" and "destroy spirit". Why can they do this? By destroying life and consciousness. This is simply universal destruction that ends all life, not any special "spirit"-attacking ability.

  • Except that's very much your interpretation of this instead of going off of what's said, and this is contradicted due to Cyrus in US/UM not being disappointed of the existence of other humans, but of the show of "spirit". Granted, Ever convinced me that "spirit" only means emotion.
  • Actually, given the other usages of the word when it involves them, literally can't mean emotion, because people don't exist yet, I can't even agree to that.
Immeasurable Speed: Comes from Dialga. This just makes zero sense. Dialga can't travel "beyond time" or "exceed time". That is like me saying I can travel "beyond myself" or "exceed myself". This doesn't work, while Infinite works better.

  • So abstracts who are time can't be immeasurable? Better downgrade Multi-Eternity.
Arceus
I'm sorry llama-god. Time to step down.

Power Nullification: The parts from the TCG abilities are fine. However, I don't remember anything implying it made Destiny Tower.

  • I can debate this one, but I can see where you're coming from there.
Non-Corporeality: Never shown. Unlike the CT, which have shown Non-Corporeal Forms, I don't think Arceus, even with all its plates, has shown this.

  • Also false. Arceus exists as a spirit, and the llama is just a physical avatar.
Dream Manipulation: Never implied to be the "booming voice". This is speculation, not implication. Arceus is never mentioned here.

  • Heavy implications. If you could find another Pokemon who can believably invade dreams, talk to humans, knows Hyper Voice, and knows stuff about Darkrai, then sure.
Use of All Moves: Absolutely never shown. Not shown in movies/anime and its in-game movepool reflects this fact. I don't know where this comes from outside of speculation.

  • Again, read the manga. Cyrus holds up plates, and Arceus uses moves of said types. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Arceus doesn't learn any Grass- or Electric- type moves via level up. Consistent with lore as well, given this is the creator of the concept of types.
Resistance to Telepathy: "Resisted the Telepathic abilities of Sheena and her ancestor." I should hope so? A 4-D character resists 3-D hax by default. If Arceus had bee hurt by this there would be a problem.

  • Except it worked on Dialga (or was it Giratina?)
Magnetism Manipulation: Was it stated that Arceus himself made the Mountain Magnetic? This seems to be a natural property.

  • Arceus made the mountain, the mountain is magnetic. It's putting two and two together.
Darkness Manipulation: What "darkness" attack is this? Foul Play? Nothing is elaborated on here.

  • Punishment
Mind, Memory, Will, Empathic, and Illusion Manipulation: Has he ever used the Lake Trio's abilities?

  • They're facets of him, just like the Creation Trio.
Information Manipulation: See above and see the Lake Trio's section.

  • See above there too.
Law Manipulation: No. Unless literally every creator god gets this, neither does Arceus. He makes space and time. This happens for all creators.

  • I added it due to some line off of Bulbapedia, stating that he did this, but you're probably right here.
Physics Manipulation: No reasoning whatsoever is given here.

  • Distortion World is stated to have warped physics. Arceus created the Distortion World.
Power Mimicry/Absorption: When he has taken someone's powers from them and put them into a plate?

  • "The power of defeated giants infuses this plate."
Chaos Manipulation/Embodiment: Spawning into/from primordial chaos =/= embodying it, nor has Arceus used it.

  • Given that Arceus isn't considered nonexistent, you're right.
Attacks Incorporeals: His Omnipotent ability lets him hit all types, including Ghost. But unless we give all Pokemon, save normal types, this ability, Arceus doesn't get it either.

  • Except we give it to anyone who learns Foresight.
Resistance to Power Mimicry: This is 100% game mechanics. Abilities that would otherwise break the game cannot be copied, and thus Multitype falls into this. Also Silvally should never be mentioned. RKS System is never tied directly to Arceus, even though it sounds the same. A cheeky nod to the intention? Sure. A legit comparison/indication? No.

  • Except the RKS System is. Check the notes in Sun and Moon. It is game mechanics though, so I agree with you there.
Palkia/Dialga
Non-Corporeality: This only applies when they are not in their avatars. Their avatar forms are perfectly corporeal.

  • Again, you're right.
Palkia - Healing Negation: Massive NLF here. Heal Block, at best, stops Deoxys' Recover, which is Low-Mid (High-Mid not applicable here since that takes a ton of time and is not the move Recover).

  • Firstly, pretty sure all four of them have this. Secondly, Starmie, Muk, and Cryogonal all say hi to High-Mid regen taking a ton of time.
Most other significant issues fall into the Overall section.

Giratina
Non-Corporeality: See Palkia/Dialga.

  • Ghost type, man...
Resistance to Mind Manipulation: The Red Chains were not used on Giratina if I recall correctly. The Capture Stylus needs context and could easily be similar to the Red Chains or be merely game mechanics.

  • I don't have enough context myself to answer this. However, all three should have resistance to mind manipulation, as the Lake Trio can't control a single member of the Creation Trio without all being present, and can't control two members of the Creation Trio at all.
Power Nullification: Shadow Force doesn't belong here. Shadow Force allows Giratina to disappear and leave the physical world temporarily, which allows attacks and effects to miss. This isn't special nullification. The other two abilities here, however, are legit.

  • TCG!Shadow Force negates after the attack though.
Power Negation: A new world can't be made because Giratina just interferes. He doesn't have some special power to make this impossible outright.

  • I didn't even know he had this.
Destroying Things in the Distortion World: Literally just Dialga glowing as evidence.

  • Major plot in Giratina's movie is that destroying things in the DW affects its IRL counterpart. The image used to justify is indeed ***** though.
Physics Manipulation: See Arceus.

  • Yeah. See Arceus.
Lake Trio
Mesprit: Power Mimicry, Reality Warping, and Soul Manipulation.

  • Power Mimicry, learns Copycat. Reality Warping, give me time. Soul Manipulation, created the souls of the multiverse.
Azelf: Reality Warping and Soul Manipulation.

  • See above.
Uxie: Reality Warping, Information Manipulation, Telepathy (not a gripe on justification but the evidence picture has a solid 10 pixels), Endure (massive NLF here and needs a major explanation), and Soul Manipulation.

  • Reality Warping, see above. Information Manipulation, what do you think knowledge is? Soul manipulation, see above.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@Cal

Go to bed and then come back; no need to put yourself through a restless night.

I'm shutting my computer down and hitting the sack after this post and Ever is about to follow suit. We can wait.
Click to expand...
I already put myself through the turmoil ;_;. Darn ninja'ing...
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
"Except it worked on Dialga (or was it Giratina?)"
Dialga.
Click to expand...
Didn't she also do it to Giratina after Ash calmed it down? Or are you talkong about how she called Dialge becuase I believe she called Palkia later as well?
 
>"spirit" only means emotion

"...I should have expected as much. Uxie, "The Being of Knowledge." Azelf, "The Being of Willpower." And Mesprit, "The Being of Emotion"..."
"The Pokémon have come to protect Sinnoh? Pathetic and worthless. It takes the three of them, the three lake Pokémon that symbolize spirit, to balance either the Pokémon of time or space. But they can't maintain balance against the two. Not when both Dialga and Palkia are here. Their coming here is in vain. So much meaningless drama. Now, <player>. You've constantly interfered with my plans, but you will be forgiven. After all, there will remain no spirit for all time when I am done. All spirit will disappear. It will be ripped away... From you! From your Pokémon! From those precious to you...! It is time! My dream will be my reality!"

Affirmed in the climax of Platinum history that Cyrus does not consider "spirit" only the emotions
 
>Resistance to Mind Manipulation

What Cal said and:

"I guess the Pokémon of the lakes must have gone home. I understand that they can keep balance against either Palkia or Dialga. Does it mean they can't do that with Giratina? ...Oops. This is no time for idle chitchat."


>Void Manipulation

From the official website:

"Cyrus is the boss of Team Galactic, the villainous organization that appeared in Pokémon Diamond and Pokémon Pearl.
Believing that the human heart is imperfect, Cyrus held a desire to use the power of the Legendary Pokémon Dialga or Palkia to erase the current world and create a perfect new world. He always conducts himself in a cool and logical way, and he is greatly trusted by his subordinates in Team Galactic."

I would be more involved in this debate but I need to study for an exam, bye.
 
I'll hold off on voting for or against for now.
 
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