Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Mariogoods]

Horizons really tries to make Pokedex canon to Horizons version of Pokemon.

Can anyone think of anything to add?

Tyloxtus/sandbox10

vsbattles.fandom.com

She is a tricky one. First, scaling above Ash's durability feat is somewhat inconsistent and I personally prefers to be based on Jenny's own feats. Second, are you sure that all Jenny are the exact same person?

 

[XitSign]

So this is gonna be kinda (very) stupid for game scaling and I wouldn't be surprised if this was given a hard no, but...

Spoiler: Indigo Disk Story Spoilers

You think we could scale Stellar Form Terapagos above Eternatus since it couldn't even be captured by a Master Ball whereas Eternatus took a bit to shatter a regular Poke Ball after being captured?

Been a little bit since this was asked, but I'm almost certain the answer is no. Terapagos resists the sealing properties of the Master Ball returning it and then seemingly overloads it with energy or sends an energy blast back (hard for me to make out which it's meant to be) to destroy it.

The actual Sealing is more of an ability/hax, we'd probably be hard pressed to justify that it has any AP behind it. Destroying the device itself would only scale to feats we can give the ball's physical durability outside of this ability. A pokemon breaking out of the ball needs to be justified as the ball's durability being overwhelmed rather than simply overcoming sealing before we can start talking about this being a possible scaling chain.

Though the part I find more interesting, and immediately likely to 'scale', is the fact that Kieran had already caught Terapagos, he was trying to return it to its ball, something we can do with other Terasatlized Pokemon compared to catching a wild one. May give the Stellar form some amount of increased resistance to Sealing

 

[Imaginym]

Excluding Occulture's claims, but as said, those are indeed dubious.


I'll say this: In what feels like some kind of cruel prank viewed from retrospect, the best means for scaling Paradox Pokemon seems to be found in the base game.

But first: Is anyone able to get screenshots/videos of trying to interact with the desk at the start of the Area Zero Underdepths? Especially before bringing Terapagos to the Crystal Pool?

Anyway, for Paradox Pokemon scaling, what I assume is something like this:

1. To enter Area Zero, the player character must do all 3 of defeating Team Star, defeating the Titan Pokemon, & defeating Champions Geeta & Nemona.
2. I don't remember the exact dialogue, but Penny, Arven & Nemona are chosen for their tech skills (IIRC), relation to the professor, & battle skills, respectively. This means Nemona should be most comparable, IMHO. I don't remember the exact reason for the player character's involvement.
3. During The Way Home, the player character & the other partners participate in Multi-Battles, all 2vs1, Trainer Pokemon vs a Wild Pokemon.

They are as follows:

1. Nemona's Lycanroc as her lead, & player character's Pokemon vs a wild Glimmora.
(Arven's dialogue at the end suggests the Glimmora may be lesser than the other encounters, which'd notably include Paradox Pokemon, but considering his previous experiences were years ago, when he'd be a kid, likely not a trainer, or not a good one, & "Pokemon deeper into Area Zero are more dangerous" is very dubious logic, I'd take it under scrutiny at best.)
2. Penny's Umbreon as her lead & player character's Pokemon vs a wild Scream Tail (Scarlet) or Iron Bundle (Violet).
(Notably, before the battle, Nemona acts winded, & Arven seems surprised about her lack of stamina. Considering she has an arm brace, winces in pain when Terastallizing (But most do.), & IIRC, is canonically bad at catching Pokemon/throwing Poke Balls, this suggests some physical/Stamina issues.)
3. Arven's Mabosstiff as his lead & player character's Pokemon vs a wild Great Tusk (Scarlet) or Iron Treads (Violet).
Notable pre-battle dialogue:
Arven: "Wait a sec! This is just like that Titan Pokémon we saw! So it was an ancientS/Va futureV Pokémon all along?!"
Nemona: "Whoa, you've battled one of these before, Arven? It looks seriously strong!"
Arven: "Yeah, well, <player> and I are old pros when it comes to Titans! Leave this to us!"
Post-battle dialogue has Nemona expressing jealousy that Arven & player character have met one of those Pokemon before, & Penny & Arven being concerned about how these Pokemon might be dangerous running around Paldea unchecked & the topic of why the professor isn't doing anything about this.

Upon reaching the entrance to the Area Zero Lab, said dialogue is notable:

Spoiler: Conversation between player character and friends

A lot of other stuff, then:
Professor Sada/Turo: "Since you have disabled all four locks, the gate to the Zero Lab should now open for you. But once you open the gate, you will quickly be confronted with the dangerous Pokémon inside. They will likely make a break for freedom."
Player character: "Dangerous Pokemon?" or "That sounds like a problem."
Professor Sada/Turo: "With the four of you working together, you should be able to best them.""Prepare yourselves well, then open the gate."
Nemona: "You've got me and <player> here! Doesn't matter what we're up against. We'll be fine!"
Arven: "Hah! Well then, that puts all my worries to rest."

Later on....

Arven: "Hold it!"
Nemona: "Huh? Why? We're finally on the cusp of getting into the lab!"
Arven: "Look—if it's true that a bunch of really dangerous Pokémon might come at us, then shouldn't we also have KoraidonS/MiraidonV help?"
Nemona: "Yeah, if KoraidonS/MiraidonV were like how we first saw it in the Inlet Grotto, that'd be a huge help! I wanna see it battle!"
Penny: "Uhhh... But it hasn't even wanted to let us ride it ever since we came down to Area Zero. And it can't enter its battle form in the first place!"
Arven: "But it's really strong. I know it is. It ate all those Herba Mystica we found, too! When it really matters, I'm sure it'll fight! And Area Zero is where it used to live... If you bring it out of its ball now, maybe it'll be able to find its family, too. Right?"
Nemona: "That's pretty sensible by your standards, Arven!"
Penny: "Hmmm... I dunno..."
Nemona: "Go on, <player>! Let KoraidonS/MiraidonV out!"
If the player says No, Nemona says: "C'mon, it'll be fine! Even if KoraidonS/MiraidonV can't fight, I'll protect it! OK?"
Arven: "All right! Come on, <player>! Now that we've got KoraidonS/MiraidonV ready, it's time to open that gate!"

Cutscene involving the aggressive Koraidon/Miraidon before it notices the entrance to the Zero Lab is open.

Koraidon/Miraidon: "Gyansss..."
Nemona: "Huh? What's wrong?""Are you bummed that your heartwarming family reunion got cut off so quickly?"
Penny: "Are you joking?! There was nothing heartwarming about it! We were THIS close to getting caught up in a nasty brawl!"
Nemona: "Wait, for real?!"
Penny: "Just look at KoraidonS/MiraidonV. Poor thing's terrified... Guess that other one isn't exactly its pal."
Arven: "Yeah, that other Pokémon was giving off some real bad vibes...""Uh... Not that you should worry a thing 'bout any of that! Once we get you back into your battle form, I'm sure you'll be going toe-to-toe against that jerk! If...you know, if you want to."
Koraidon/Miraidon: "Kiusss..."
Arven: "Do you think that other KoraidonS/MiraidonV was one of the "dangerous Pokémon" the professor warned us to watch out for?"
Nemona: "But didn't the professor say the dangerous Pokémon would come out from inside?"
Arven: "You mean from inside the gate we just—?" "What the—?!" [Everyone reacts startledly]
Pokemon approaching & noises (1 Flutter Mane, 1 Brute Bonnet & 1 Great Tusk go down the ramp in Scarlet, & in Violet it's 1 Iron Jugulis, 1 Iron Hands & 1 Iron Treads.), then they're surrounded by 5 Brute Bonnet, 2 Great Tusk & 1 Flutter Mane (Scarlet) or 5 Iron Hands, 2 Iron Treads & 1 Iron Jugulis (Violet).
Nemona: "We're surrounded!"
Arven: "And it's pretty obvious they're not here to roll out a friendly welcome mat."
Penny: "There's no way we can handle this many! And don't tell me...they're all ancientS/futureV Pokémon?!"
Arven: "We've got a little disaster on our hands here..."
Koraidon/Miraidon: "Kiusss..."
Arven: "Look, even that fellow's ready to bail..."
Nemona: "Then I guess it's my turn! I've been waitin'!""C'mon, <player>! Let's do this together!"

4. Nemona's Lycanroc as her lead, & player character's Pokemon vs a wild Great Tusk (Scarlet) or Iron Treads (Violet).

Spoiler: More dialogue

Notable dialogue:
Nemona: "Wow, they're strong! Now THIS is a worthwhile challenge!"
Penny: "I'm glad you're on our side, but you're still REALLY annoying when you say stuff like that!"
Some Brute Bonnet (Scarlet) or Iron Hands (Violet) approach Penny, making noises.
Penny: "Gyah! Why're they coming at ME?! <player>! Help me out here!"

5. Penny's Umbreon as her lead, & player character's Pokemon vs a wild Brute Bonnet (Scarlet) or Iron Hands (Violet).

Spoiler: Yet more dialogue

Penny: "Guh. The ancient past must've beenS/future must beV terrifying..."
Koraidon/Miraidon: "Ah-GIIIAAAS!"
Nemona: "Oh no! They're running away!"
Penny: "Yeah, and?"
Nemona: "If those Pokémon get out, we're gonna have a gigantic mess on our hands! We gotta go after 'em, Penny!"
Penny: "Why me?!"
Nemona: "Waaaiiit! Hah... Hah..."
Penny: "Gah! Hold on, Nemona—and why do I get the feeling you're enjoying all this?"
Arven: "I hope the two of them can handle their part... But at least the crowd's been thinned out now. Guess it's up to us to deal with what's left! Let's go for this strong-looking one first!"

6. Arven's Mabosstiff as his lead, & player character's Pokemon vs a wild Flutter Mane (Scarlet) or Iron Jugulis (Violet).

Spoiler: Still more dialogue

"See! The power of friendship had us perfectly in sync! All thanks to our Titan hunting together!"
Koraidon/Miraidon: "... ... ..." [It does a growling sound effect that the game doesn't articulate for some reason.]
Arven: "Still scared, huh? You worried you might have to face that other one of your kind? Well then, lemme take on some of the burden!""These stragglers should be nothing! Me and Mabosstiff here can take them!"
Mabosstiff: "Bawf!"
Arven: "So, <player>, you take your partner there and go take care of business!"
Arven's next dialogue depends on the player's choice.
Got it!: "Heheh, glad to see you’ve got some faith in us at last! Mabosstiff can’t wait to battle, either!"
But...: "Aw, come on! If you're not even gonna rely on your friends, then who are you going to rely on? Mabosstiff here is raring to go! Leave this to us!"
Arven: "KoraidonS/MiraidonV! You really ruined my whole childhood, you know. But it's not like seeing you cowering and scared outta your wits makes me feel any better about it. You've got amazing powers, if you just use 'em! And you've got us, too! So... So... So don't you even think about losing to that jerk!""Be brave—stand up and fight!"
& if he's spoken to outside of the Zero Lab's entrance: "Go, <player>! We'll follow as soon as we can!"

But yeah.

There's other stuff to check, like the Great Tusk/Iron Treads Titan dialogue, the Area Zero Underdepths desk, the stuff for Perrin's sidequest in The Indigo Disk, & probably more.

But it makes it clear that Paradox Pokemon are at least a challenge for trainers around Champion Rank like player character & friends.
Presumably, protagonist can train Pokemon to a higher level, the story just doesn't assume they have, & in The Way Home, treats them like they're only Champion Rank; Being able to train Paradox Pokemon yet them naturally being stronger than trained Pokemon would kind of be a paradox itself, you know?


There's also some confusing stuff, like this from Nemona:
Nemona: "Yeah, if KoraidonS/MiraidonV were like how we first saw it in the Inlet Grotto, that'd be a huge help! I wanna see it battle!"
Didn't she & the player character first find it when it was already injured & weakened? I guess we did see it flying in Paldea in the intro.... Does she mean that?

& this from Arven:
Arven: "Wait a sec! This is just like that Titan Pokémon we saw! So it was an ancientS/Va futureV Pokémon all along?!"
Nemona: "Whoa, you've battled one of these before, Arven? It looks seriously strong!"
Arven: "Yeah, well, <player> and I are old pros when it comes to Titans! Leave this to us!"
This could be interpreted as implying comparability. Is it saying the Quaking Earth Titan is Champion Rank level? But the titans can be done in any order, like the rest of the game? (Although levels of NPCs, like for Arven's team, implies an intended order.) & more concerningly, said titan is likely battled pre-Champion level.
Even if it was a stronger Great Tusk/Iron Treads thanks to the Sour Herba Mystica, it's still kinda weird, no?

Also, the choices of mons in the special encounters implies that Flutter Mane & Iron Jugulis are counterparts??? (Version differences.)
i guess they had no other matches.

Also, Violet's version of the Zero Lab cutscene is kinda dumb, because the Pokemon that cause the rumble rumble footsteps SFX are Iron Jugulis (Which flies.), Iron Hands (Which does in fact walk, yes.), & Iron Treads, which rolls on a smooth, wheel-like structure.


Of course, there's also the Professor, with their data about Paldea's champion-rank trainers. Although it might be 10 years old data?
& there's the Koraidon/Miraidon battle, for what that's worth for scaling.

5 Star Tera Raids are unlocked after the ending credits, which requires clearing The Way Home.
6 Star Tera Raids are unlocked after completing The Academy Ace Tournament, which is similarly post-game. Jacq even has dialogue even warning the player of Black Tera Crystals once or twice (The first time for 5 Star Tera Raids.) & the danger of doing said raids', & will be surprised by the player completing one.

Notably, said Tera Raids are supposedly caused by energy from Area Zero.
I'm not sure if we're given an explanation for those in The Indigo Disk/Blueberry Academy.
Also, might be game mechanics, but 5 & Star Raids are only accessible once per day, except for without online (maybe?), AFAIK.


There's more stuff like this to go over with the DLC stuff. (Carmine, Kieran, Blueberry Academy, etc.)
Frustratingly, the DLC's scaling is likely to be a mess because although you need to beat The Teal Mask to start The Indigo Disk, if you start The Teal Mask before clearing The Way Home, the NPCs, including story relevant ones & legendary battles are all much lower. Like, topping out at 40 or so.
Starting & blazing through The Teal Mask after finishing the catching tutorial is very possible.
This makes Ogerpon in the scaling chain kind of wonky, IMHO.

The Indigo Disk doesn't have a lower level version, but you can still go in & do the stuff; If you lose to the mandatory Lacey battle at the entrance at the start, you're still let in anyway, AFAIK.


Pardon the long post.
But yeah, the structure for scaling chains is kinda there, but for feats, it's lacking. Miraidon & Koraidon have good feats, but even they aren't that great. The Treasures of Ruin have a vague castle destroying feat & don't seem to scale to anyone else....

Irritatingly, The Indigo Disk seems to have DE-confirmed the idea that Terapagos made Area Zero:

Spoiler: About Area Zero formation and Terapagos

The Area Zero Underdepths

"I am calling the area found below Area Zero the Area Zero Underdepths. From the composition of the rock, I would date the cavern's formation to two million years ago. There are indications that many objects—or creatures perhaps—filled the space prior to the current cavern's formation.

The depths bottoms out approximately 3,300 feet beneath the surface. There are indications of numerous past cave-ins, likely resulting from tectonic activity and erosion caused by rainwater or groundwater, but it appears that the ground has remained stable since the last major cave-in." - Professor Sada/Turo

From Raifort's first history class:
"The area inside this crater is called Area Zero, and research of its geological strata and material composition has shown that the crater is in fact over one million years old."
& from base Terapagos's Pokedex entry in Pokemon Violet:
"It’s thought that this Pokémon lived in ancient Paldea until it got caught in seismic shifts and went extinct."


The cave Terapagos was found in was formed 2 million years ago, meaning the cave at the end of where the Area Zero Underdepths goes predates Area Zero itself.
Plus, Sada/Turo states that many objects -or creatures perhaps filled the space prior to its formation.
Terapagos lived in ancient Paldea & went extinct... due to getting caught in seismic shifts. That seem like an anticlimactic extinction for a Legendary Pokemon to anyone else?
(Also the wording is a a little strange, lol; Deadly seismic shifts preceding the cave's formation would probably mean there wouldn't be much, if any empty space before it was formed. But Pokemon, especially those like Terapagos -Which can turn into a small jewel- are good at inhabiting weird places.)

Oh, & this is probably invalid, but there is stuff about the crystals in The Area Zero Underdepths being made from energy or such, & energy to mass, IIRC, is something normally impossible but which would -or because it does- require infinite energy.
But again, shaky logic & probably invalid; There's pribably tons of fiction with energy to mass (Creation feats, forcefields/barriers are kinda similar, etc.) & the story doesn't mention infinite for that, so it's probably not to be taken that way.


Phew. Again, sorry for the long post, but it does seem like we at the very least, have Champion-Rank scaling chains for S/V to use for Paradox Pokemon & their ilk.
But we still have more research required. (Area Zero Underdepths desk, Indigo Disk Perrin. Maybe other stuff?)

 

[Tyloxtus]

Horizons really tries to make Pokedex canon to Horizons version of Pokemon.

She is a tricky one. First, scaling above Ash's durability feat is somewhat inconsistent and I personally prefers to be based on Jenny's own feats. Second, are you sure that all Jenny are the exact same person?

Um what? No, they just scale to each other.

 

[koopa3144]

So I'm basically done with the Riolu line profile revision, I only have to add videos of the Pokédex entries. What do y'all think of the profile?

 

[Imaginym]

So I'm basically done with the Riolu line profile revision, I only have to add videos of the Pokédex entries. What do y'all think of the profile?

"Riolu's can produce an aura from its body intensifies to alert others if it is afraid or sad and can communicate with other Riolu using their auras[1]."

Syntax error?

• Ice Manipulation(Via Ice Punch which hits The target is with an icy punch, this may leave the target frozen)

Why is "The" capitalized there?

Immune to: Poison Manipulation (As a Steal-Type, Lucario is completely immune to Poison-Type moves)

I don't think a Lucario would appreciate being referred to that way.
Also, that listing may be misleading. We have standards about Immunities:

Quoting just part of our Resistance page:

"Qualifying for Immunity is difficult, as no simple show of resistance is enough, and statements could easily be hyperbole or only apply in-verse. Immunity should only be given when the user in question entirely lacks what would normally be affected. An inorganic being, for example, has no biological components to manipulate, and an entity without a soul won't be harmed by Soul Manipulation."

Otherwise, I can't think of much of note, although I'm a bit sleepy, AtM.

Thanks for keeping us posted & asking about it!

It's always nice to look into stuff that isn't about the God Tiers of Pokemon or Ditto or something, IMHO.

 

[koopa3144]

"Riolu's can produce an aura from its body intensifies to alert others if it is afraid or sad and can communicate with other Riolu using their auras[1]."

Syntax error?

I put the references in order of appearance and Riolu's aura alerting others if it is afraid or sad was first noted in Diamond although I used the example of it from Scarlet cause it is more recent.

• Ice Manipulation(Via Ice Punch which hits The target is with an icy punch, this may leave the target frozen)

Why is "The" capitalized there?

That is a typo that I'm gonna fix.

Immune to: Poison Manipulation (As a Steal-Type, Lucario is completely immune to Poison-Type moves)

I don't think a Lucario would appreciate being referred to that way.
Also, that listing may be misleading. We have standards about Immunities:

Quoting just part of our Resistance page:

"Qualifying for Immunity is difficult, as no simple show of resistance is enough, and statements could easily be hyperbole or only apply in-verse. Immunity should only be given when the user in question entirely lacks what would normally be affected. An inorganic being, for example, has no biological components to manipulate, and an entity without a soul won't be harmed by Soul Manipulation."

I mean Steel being Immune to Poison is an in-game thing. Steel-types are completely immune to poison moves and starting from Generation III, Steel-type Pokémon cannot get the poisoned status condition at all.

 

[Luckyfun]

Second time that i ask. Gothitelle psychic energy can distort starry skies.

Is it an outlier or just lifting strength?

 

[Imaginym]

I put the references in order of appearance and Riolu's aura alerting others if it is afraid or sad was first noted in Diamond although I used the example of it from Scarlet cause it is more recent.

No, I was concerned about the wording.
"Riolu's can produce an aura from its body intensifies to alert others if it is afraid or sad and can communicate with other Riolu using their auras[1]."

In particular: "Riolu's can produce an aura from its body intensifies".
Why the apostrophy? Even if not pluralizing Pokemon by their species name as is typically done (You don't say "Look at all those Pikachus", you say "Look at all those Pikachu".) & also "from its body intensifies to alert others".

Was "intensifies" the word you meant to use there?

That is a typo that I'm gonna fix.

I mean Steel being Immune to Poison is an in-game thing. Steel-types are completely immune to poison moves and starting from Generation III, Steel-type Pokémon cannot get the poisoned status condition at all.

Should call it extreme/greater resistance, to avoid being misleading, IMHO.
I don't think we'd say Ground-types are completely immune to Electricity Manipulation either. A very big resistance, yes, but I'd hesitate to call it immunity, even non-literally.

Also, Steel-types being Poisoned (Gen 2 Twinneedle aside.) is possible due to Corrosion, so it's far from an infallible "Immunity".

 

[koopa3144]

No, I was concerned about the wording.
"Riolu's can produce an aura from its body intensifies to alert others if it is afraid or sad and can communicate with other Riolu using their auras[1]."

In particular: "Riolu's can produce an aura from its body intensifies".
Why the apostrophy? Even if not pluralizing Pokemon by their species name as is typically done (You don't say "Look at all those Pikachus", you say "Look at all those Pikachu".) & also "from its body intensifies to alert others".

Was "intensifies" the word you meant to use there?

Oh, that's a spelling mistake. It's meant to be "Riolu's can produce an aura from its body which intensifies to alert others if it is afraid or sad and can communicate with other Riolu using their auras[1]. "Intensifies" was what was used to describe it in the Pokédex so I just copied it from there. I'll go in and fix the apostrophe stuff.

Should call it extreme/greater resistance, to avoid being misleading, IMHO.
I don't think we'd say Ground-types are completely immune to Electricity Manipulation either. A very big resistance, yes, but I'd hesitate to call it immunity, even non-literally.

Also, Steel-types being Poisoned (Gen 2 Twinneedle aside.) is possible due to Corrosion, so it's far from an infallible "Immunity".

I mean most steal types are inorganic to some degree which aids the point of them being unable to be hurt my poison moves and Corrosion is directly stated in flavor text to bypass Steel and Poison Types Immunity to the Poison status condition so it's more of a feat for the ability itself rather than an example of Steel-types actually being able to be poisoned.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Second time that i ask. Gothitelle psychic energy can distort starry skies.

Is it an outlier or just lifting strength?

Depends. Is it made clear that Gothitelle is moving the actual celestial bodies in the sky to distort it or is it simply creating visual distortion?

 

[Imaginym]

Oh, that's a spelling mistake. It's meant to be "Riolu's can produce an aura from its body which intensifies to alert others if it is afraid or sad and can communicate with other Riolu using their auras[1]. "Intensifies" was what was used to describe it in the Pokédex so I just copied it from there. I'll go in and fix the apostrophe stuff.

Ah okay.

I mean most steal types are inorganic to some degree which aids the point of them being unable to be hurt my poison moves and Corrosion is directly stated in flavor text to bypass Steel and Poison Types Immunity to the Poison status condition so it's more of a feat for the ability itself rather than an example of Steel-types actually being able to be poisoned.

I'd be confident Riolu & Lucario are primarily organic, however.

 

[Luckyfun]

Depends. Is it made clear that Gothitelle is moving the actual celestial bodies in the sky to distort it or is it simply creating visual distortion?

I mean the Pokédex has said that Gothitelle has immense psychic power that can "distort" space and reality as well as "predicting the movements of starry skies"

I think possibly lifting strength or ap or telekinesis. However, i don't think it would scale to other Pokémon.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I mean the Pokédex has said that Gothitelle has immense psychic power that can "distort" space and reality as well as "predicting the movements of starry skies"

I think possibly lifting strength or ap or telekinesis. However, i don't think it would scale to other Pokémon.

Do you have the exact statement itself or a visual feat of Gothitelle distorting the sky? Its unlikely that she's moving celestial bodies if her distorting the skies is amalgamation of two entirely different statements.

 

[Imaginym]

Do you have the exact statement itself or a visual feat of Gothitelle distorting the sky? Its unlikely that she's moving celestial bodies if her distorting the skies is amalgamation of two entirely different statements.

Semi-notably, there was an anime episode of a Gothitelle creating an illusion world about its former life to show to folks & blocking off Ash & friends from crossing the bridge.
IIRC, some consider the creation of that illusionary world or whatever exactly it is to be a notable feat.

Anyway, IDK if Gothitelle's star feats have been depicted, but here's the Pokedex entries that seem relevant:

Gothitelle (Pokémon) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Black	Starry skies thousands of light-years away are visible in the space distorted by their intense psychic power.

Sword	It has tremendous psychic power, but it dislikes conflict. It's also able to predict the future based on the movement of the stars.

Scarlet	Gothitelle unleashes psychic energy and shows opponents dreams of the universe’s end. These dreams are apparently ethereal and beautiful.
Violet	It gazes at the stars to predict the future. It acts somewhat detached because it has seen the end of all existence.

Those aren't all the entries, which is notable because its other entries are about its visions & what it can see & show:

White	They can predict the future from the placement and movement of the stars. They can see Trainers' life spans.

Shield	A criminal who was shown his fate by a Gothitelle went missing that same day and was never seen again.

(It's technically had entries in 12 games, but several of them are repeats.)

I'm not sure if that's all the notably distinct entries Gothitelle has, but it presents a concern. Gothitelle's abilities are clearly centered on seeing & showing visions, fate, the future, etc.
I think that showing visions of distant things makes sense thematically, as knowing how long someone will live or their fate or the end of the universe are temporally distant; Far in the future.

So with that in mind, I want to propose what seem to be reasonable interpretations:

A. Gothitelle is distorting starry skies thousands of light-years away, such that they are visibly distorted in that space -As opposed to not being able to see the distortion if you weren't in the area-, by using its/their intense psychic power.
B. In a space distorted by Gothitelle's psychic power, starry skies thousands of light-years away are visible.

To me, B makes more sense; A presents Gothitelle as tremendously stronger than even Legendary Pokemon -Solgaleo & Lunaala eating the sun & the moon or such, literal or not, are paltry by comparison!- which seems strange.
Not to mention Gothitelle suddenly having an entry about it having ridiculously strong telekinetic powers, when its whole evolutionary line has been about visions & seeing the future.

So A seems out of place from power level, abilities given focus by the Pokedex & thematics perspectives to me.

I apologize if any find my stance cruel or unpleasant.
I do think it could be worthwhile to check the original Japanese language entries, but I'd be surprised if they differ very much.

 

[Imaginym]

 

[Tyloxtus]

Oh my god the butchering of modern Pokemon. "Every Pecha Berry you've ever grown in your whole life and entire Pokemon career was all shit, here's a REAL Pecha Berry that you're incapable of growing and unusable in the game because of how awesome it is." I'm done with Pokemon. ffs.

 

[Imaginym]

Oh my god the butchering of modern Pokemon. "Every Pecha Berry you've ever grown in your whole life and entire Pokemon career was all shit, here's a REAL Pecha Berry that you're incapable of growing and unusable in the game because of how awesome it is." I'm done with Pokemon. ffs.

Well, supposedly, this one requires being grown by an expert gardener over the course of several years.
So it may just be a cultivar that takes longer to grow.

It is sort of a retroactive insult to the player character's capabilities, I suppose.
But it's also not like it serves a very similar purpose to a regular Pecha Berry. The Mythical Pecha Berry's purpose seems, in fact, to be having an aroma that allures a certain mythical Pokemon. & even if players could grow Pecha Berries of that quality, who's to say Pecharunt was even near enough to notice?
Also, it seems to mostly be a Pecha because Peaches & the myth of Momotaro.

Sorry for any bother.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ah yes, Pokémon sucks now because… There’s a special kind of Pecha Berry now.

It’s not that serious…

 

[Imaginym]

Going through a video of the DLC Epilogue, Mochi Mayhem now.

Gonna be posting my thoughts, probably en masse later. Spoiler warnings.

Nemona: You weren’t kidding. Kieran’s great! Lemme see, which Pokémon should I use for our NEXT battle?
Kieran: I got completely destroyed... Who the heck IS Nemona, anyway?

This is dialogue from Nemona & Kieran about the results of an off-screen battle between the two of them that starts shortly after they leave Carmine & Kieran's house & go to outside Mossui Town's center, & ends by the time you arrive, going from Carmine & Kieran's house.
Meaning not only did Nemona wreck him, she likely did it very quickly. & Nemona's just deciding how best to wreck him again later.

You have no idea how happy this made me to read.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Damn bro, you hate Kieran or something?

 

[Imaginym]

Damn bro, you hate Kieran or something?

Yes! Intensely!
Even before The Teal Mask released, I hated his existence, because I saw his DLC as little more than a delay & an obstacle to learning more about Area Zero & Terapagos.
Then we're forced to pair up with him, no choice to even side with Carmine, forced to lie to him for drama & catch Ogerpon. Which he gets angry about even though it never showed up for him in his years of interest/searching.
Then he has the gall to swear revenge like it's our fault -Catching Ogerpon is mandatory to advance the story & play the other DLCs & it preferred player character over Kieran, who hardly interacted with it anyway!- & be central to the story of The Blueberry Academy while being an edgelord.
I wil thank him for helping let the player character join Blueberry Academy, & he is entertaining in his edgyness, so maybe I don't TOTALLY hate him....

But then there was what he did with Terapagos, & him being part of the party that gets to there feels like cheating the original, more likeable friend group out of that opportunity.
Since The Teal Mask ALL THE WAY THROUGH The Indigo Disk & Mochi Mayhem, he's been focal for the story, & I dislike him being forced into focus like that.
I relish his suffering.


Sorry for any bother.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean I think Kieran’s one of the best characters we’ve gotten in the Pokémon games so I’mma have to say… yeah nah, can’t agree with that one

 

[Imaginym]

I mean I think Kieran’s one of the best characters we’ve gotten in the Pokémon games so I’mma have to say… yeah nah, can’t agree with that one

That's fair. To each their own.
His edgyness is fun in a way. Seeing him tormented can be entertaining, & I can see how some might like how he gets as a "Rival", similar to how Gen 1 Blue might be perceived by some. No offense meant.
But he gets a lot of focus & does a lot of mean things, so I find it difficult to like him. Sorry.

 

[Imaginym]

Spoiler: Mochi Mayhem Spoilers

Dialogue about the curse:

Nemona: You sure you don’t want to stay with your sister?
Kieran: She should be OK... Gramps and Grandma look after her during the day, but they must’ve taken their eyes off her for just a sec earlier...
Sorry for making you all help out with...that.
Later in the conversation:
Kieran: I mean...she’s been like that since I sent you that letter, [player character name]. She was already dancin’ and all by the time I\nwoke up the next day. No explanation. ...I guess that really isn’t normal, is it?

At the community center, Nemona eats some Mochi from a plate labelled "Help yourself" (Wonder how that got set up.).

Relevant dialogue:
Arven: Wait. Nemona. What’s all over your mouth? Were you eating snacks without us?!
Nemona: When I see a “Help yourself” sign, I don’t ignore it! There was just one mochi left, though.

Arven & the others agreed they wanted to change the channel for the TV, since it always plays the same tourism video. Whoever finds it decides what to do next. It's hidden in a potted plant, & the player character finds it.
Upon the remote search being proposed:
Nemona: Haha, it’s like our own little Treasure Hunt! Everyone, grab a corner and start searching![VAR 0114(0004)]
Player character:
I’m in!
OR
No way!
Everyone else runs off, but Nemona just stands still, lowers her head, screen fades to black & she's in the community center's entrance hallway, & silent when spoken to.

They soon Nemona isn't around, nor answering her phone. Sadly, Kieran tells Arven & Penny to stay at the community center in case Nemona comes back.

& outside, a man & a woman -Apparently, orchard workers- are also strangely standing still & silent.
After a few failed attempts to greet & converse them (They're initially silent before finally starting to say "Mochi" & then dancing, flapping their arms like chickens, with purple energy around them.), they challenge the player character to a battle, Shige sending out Ariados & Aya sending out Salazzle.
Kieran leads with a Poliwrath.

Interestingly, when making a move, they'll do the dancing, but when it's not their turn, they'll do more normal -Albeit, confident-seeming- poses & gestures. Unsure if those are normal or special for their trainer class, assuming it isn't unique.

Aya has a 2nd Pokemon a Victreebel & Shige's 2nd Pokemon is... a Noctowl? Breaking the theme, no?


Kieran: What’s gotten into them?! They were perfectly\nfine when I saw them yesterday!
(On Shige & Aya, after battling them.)

After the battle, Nemona is seen running towards Kitakami Hall. Kieran's grandparents are found there, appearing normal, & with the grandpa stating that Carmine must be at home sleeping, tuckered out with all that dancing. Apparently, they're here to get some of her favorite noodles, hoping her favorite food will snap her out of whatever's going on.
When described, the grandpa recalls meeting her & asks the grandma if she recalls what she said.
The grandma is silent & suddenly offers a plate of purple mochi/donuts.
(Where the heck was she hiding that?!)
She gets insistent & grandpa takes one. (Well, he gestures doing so, but none disappear from the plate. I blame GameFreak being bad at cutscenes.)

Grandpa's dialogue after eating it: All right, I’ve had some mochi, dear. Now can we get back to the question?
Hm...?

Then they both start doing the dancing craze like the others.
Name reveals! Grandma Hideko & Grandpa Yukito!
She sends out a Chandelure, he sends out an Arbok. Surprisingly, Hideko's Chandelure is Level 82 to Yukito's Arbok's mere Level of only 80.
Yukito's 2nd Pokemon is a Weezing. (Wow, nice reference, GameFreak.) Hideko's is... a Mamoswine? Surprising!
Kieran's lead is a Poliwrath again & his 2nd Pokemon is a Hydrapple with Supersweet Syrup. His 3rd Pokemon is an Incineroar.

Arven calls. Apparently they're holding out & being attacked. Their call is interrupted by some clattering on Arven's end.

I'll go over more later.

 

[XitSign]

Interesting minor bit of testing with a spoiler battle, not sure it's useful for us for any scaling, but adds some flavor to the battle:

Spoiler: Mochi Mayhem Boss Battle

When battling Pecharunt, sending out Ogerpon triggers a bonus animation for Ogerpon, she stands up taller and seems to shake out her whole body while an aggressive seeming battle cry comes up in the text box. Seems Ogerpon recognizes Pecharunt from their backstory.

If you send out any member of the Loyal 3, Pecharunt gets a bonus animation instead, doing it's cry again but with a more aggressive attacking animation with it. Seems Pecharunt is angry/annoyed/betrayed by them being on our team now.

 

[Imaginym]

Interesting minor bit of testing with a spoiler battle, not sure it's useful for us for any scaling, but adds some flavor to the battle:

Spoiler: Mochi Mayhem Boss Battle

When battling Pecharunt, sending out Ogerpon triggers a bonus animation for Ogerpon, she stands up taller and seems to shake out her whole body while an aggressive seeming battle cry comes up in the text box. Seems Ogerpon recognizes Pecharunt from their backstory.

If you send out any member of the Loyal 3, Pecharunt gets a bonus animation instead, doing it's cry again but with a more aggressive attacking animation with it. Seems Pecharunt is angry/annoyed/betrayed by them being on our team now.

Personally, I find it curious. According to Kieran's grandpa's story, The Loyal 3 came from overseas, but the townspeople only knew of The Loyal 3. & based on them being in a grave & the story, Ogerpon killed them. But we don't know what happened to Pecharunt. So either Pecharunt is anomalously a Ghost-type because Ogerpon killed it even though The Loyal 3 aren't Ghost-types or Pecharunt survived; It was allured by the aroma of the Mythical Pecha Berry, no? So did Pecharunt just run, run away & live to fight another day? Did it inexplicably revive off-screen?

And how did Ogerpon find Pecharunt? The story frames it like it sent The Loyal 3 to take the masks & bring them to it, implying it wasn't around, especially since, AFAIK -Not finished checking the story yet- the townspeople have little to no knowledge of Pecharunt's existence, suggesting it didn't visit the town.

So if Pecharunt didn't enter the town, & was from a foreign land, how did Ogerpon learn of it?
Heck, how would Pecharunt know Ogerpon? MAYBE Ogerpon could've learned from The Loyal 3, but if Pecharunt wasn't around during Ogerpon vs The Loyal 3, then presumably The Loyal 3 would be dead when it visited, if at all, so it couldn't have learned about Ogerpon from it?
I suppose it learned of Ogerpon when it learned about the masks with Tera Crystals as the grandpa's story claims/implies it did?

 

[Chianli]

Spoiler: so weird

Honestly it is quite weird how kieran just..becomes a toxic asshole? like when you first meet him he is this meek kid with a obssesion with a local myth but when that creature chosed you as his master, someone who has JUST been introduce to the place while HE was trying, FOR YEARS for it to maybe even acknowledge his entire hobby but nope! straight to you!

he gets pissed off by this and after beating him he makes a comment and runs away...we later see him Indigo disk and you know the gest

 

[TartaChocholate]

Silly question, but what are the DLCs for Scarlet and Violet? Indigo Disk, Secret of Area Zero and are there more?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Silly question, but what are the DLCs for Scarlet and Violet? Indigo Disk, Secret of Area Zero and are there more?

The Teal Mask, The Indigo Disk, and an epilogue called Mochi Mayhem. "The Hidden Treasure of Area Zero" is the name of the entire Expansion Pass

 

[TartaChocholate]

The Teal Mask, The Indigo Disk, and an epilogue called Mochi Mayhem. "The Hidden Treasure of Area Zero" is the name of the entire Expansion Pass

Ah my bad, thanks for the clearup

 

[Imaginym]

Japanese version, too, for anyone interested, since that's the original language:

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Ranking the games
Pokemon HGSS>= B2W2> FRLG= Emerald> XY> Platinum> USUM>= ORAS Platinum> SM> Black and White> Ruby and Sapphire> Diamond and Pearl.

The ones after B2W2 are so ass, I don't even play them. especially the switch ones. I recently played Let's go Pikachu and it was so bad dude, the game overemphasized the "Catch them all" theme too much it's annoying, we can't even battle wild Pokemon anymore. It's better to play Gba rom hacks and they're much so better.

 

[CloverDragon03]

we can't even battle wild Pokemon anymore.

Who’s gonna tell him that this is only in Let’s Go because it’s meant to tie in with Pokémon Go, and that you very much still battle wild Pokémon in the games after it

 

[Tyloxtus]

I have a Chansey with 843 HP in Let's Go, mind your own damn business

 

[Starter_Pack]

Hitmonlee

Hitmonlee is a Fighting type Pokémon originating from Gen I. Originally introduced as its own Pokémon with an unknown connection to Hitmonchan, it is eventually revealed to be an evolved form of Tyrogue, who can evolve into three different Pokémon. It evolves when its attack is greater than his...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Hitmonchan

Hitmonchan is a fighting type Pokémon introduced in gen I. It is one of the three evolutions of Tyrogue, evolving when its defense is higher than its attack. Tier: High 7-A Name: Hitmonchan Origin: Pokémon Gender: Male Age: Varies Classification: Punching Pokémon, Fully Evolved Pokémon Powers...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Hitmontop

Hitmontop is a fighting-type Pokémon introduced in Pokémon Gold and Silver. It is the most recently introduced evolution of Tyrogue. It evolves from Tyrogue at level 20, if Tyrogue's defense and attack statistics are equal. Tier: High 7-A, higher by spinning Name: Hitmontop Origin: Pokémon...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Boy, wouldn't it be a shame if I magically transformed three profiles into one through the power of Tyrogue?

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Who’s gonna tell him that this is only in Let’s Go because it’s meant to tie in with Pokémon Go, and that you very much still battle wild Pokémon in the games after it

Still isn't great as a remake, the only great things are that we get a really cool Eevee and Pikachu who are a lot better than the other fodder Pikachu and Eevees with 320-325 base stats. following Pokemon, being able to fly/ride Pokemon, the graphics being somehow decent and that the game only contains the original 151 Pokemon, although they goof that up including mega evolutions.

The others are plain trash, the new character is goofy, the rival is even worse, bro doesn't even act like rival anymore, no vs seeker, we can't even play games in the game corner, no battle tower/frontier. And worst of all, no sevi islands.

I have a Chansey with 843 HP in Let's Go, mind your own damn business

Perfect Pokemon to farm EXP!!!!!!

 

[Starter_Pack]

I personally think Let's Go has a nice, simple charm that makes it easier for more casual players to get into the game. Sure, it's weird and not even remotely as great of a remake as HGSS or ORAS, but I think it's fun in its own way. I applaud it for at least trying to do something different, even if it could have been better.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I personally think Let's Go has a nice, simple charm that makes it easier for more casual players to get into the game. Sure, it's weird and not even remotely as great of a remake as HGSS or ORAS, but I think it's fun in its own way. I applaud it for at least trying to do something different, even if it could have been better.

Yeah, the starter Pikachu and Eevee and only including the orginal 151 Pokemon was a great thing. I wish they included sevi islands and have red as the mc with the rival being blue, the dynamic was perfect.

 

[Mariogoods]

I have a feeling that Ash's profile could be separated (especially his Pikachu because his Pikachu has inconsistent power)