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Ik, I'm just saying that his dimension is supporting evidence to this.
I mean, it technically should.
Anyways, I'm personally tapping out of this. It's clear I couldn't convince the people here. I basically spewed out all the reasonings, besides the Hoopa stuff, for why Arceus is Low 1-C from his page, so you could go to my comment or his page for that stuff. Laters ✌.
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Kinda metaphor statement in my opinion
PrinceofPein
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Like this is not really coherent also, that's not how it works to begin with
You need uncountable infinite low 2-C and transcending that to become low 1-C.
I am not here for violence but to descalate it
Sniper670
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- #85
It's not a metaphor tho.
The multiverse is the extension of his Manifestation, Arceus. All beings, whether abstract or not, is extending from this Pokémon. The Concept of Space and Time are aspects of Arceus, the Pokémon.
Original Spirit exists as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which the multiverse resides
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I guess you could think...ect
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so how it is low 1-C? You keep mentioning multiverse multiverse. Like, is there infinite universes?
Sniper670
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You don't need infinite universes to be low 1C
Just one low 2C structure. And in this case everything is inside the spirit, which is literally Brahman in anything but name
Besides, it is this spirit that humans have that allows them to even dream realities in their sleep. Every human/Pokemon are quite literally reassembling and deconstructing universes as they sleep and wake up
Just one low 2C structure. And in this case everything is inside the spirit, which is literally Brahman in anything but name
Besides, it is this spirit that humans have that allows them to even dream realities in their sleep. Every human/Pokemon are quite literally reassembling and deconstructing universes as they sleep and wake up
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You don't need what?
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Like this is 2-A, logically low 1-C is higher than 2-A, so try to explain to me
Sniper670
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Viewing one 4D universe as fiction grants you a low 1-C?? wait nvm, I forget dimensionality tiering lol
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Being beyond space and time can mean a lot of things but i think in Arceus defense him being beyond space and time is meant to represent his transcendence over the multiverse and not just him being outside of it, as Giratina technically embodies a realm without space and time and Arceus is just as trascendant over him as he is to Palkia and Dialga.
But this is my guesswork, knowledgeable members might be able to elaborate on this point further.
But this is my guesswork, knowledgeable members might be able to elaborate on this point further.
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1. I agree with removing trasnsdual, i think nep is fine due to containing the distortion world, maybe the paradoxical type?
2. I lean on disagree with downgrading arceus, the statements about "beyond" and "transcendence" means nothing on their own obviously, but once you take into account the how arceus himself is portrayed as unbound from and predating spacetime, making them pieces of himself, i think this leans more to superiority, but uh, isn't the heart poem in japanese about humans perceiving spacetime rather than the heart creating it via awareness?
Neutral on his dimension downgrade, i think the context for beyond still works, especially with the movie where it is "higher than the other spaces" being palkia and dialga's true forms, but at the same time, i agree that it is less evident + "located" hurts it, so meh
if it gets downgraded, please downgrade arceus too so he isn't stuck with 4D hax unless the plates are from the original spirit, please please my argument just got better with armarogue and i can't take it dying out because his dimension went on a diet or something
plus the hoopa stuff is about how the rings in-verse have infinite power and reach the 2-A scale to summon palkia and dialga, but apparentely couldn't reach arceus?
I mean, i do think this hypothetically could work and all, since it seems to be placing 2-A into a infinite and arceus' realm into another, being inaccessible and all, but like, does hoopa ever try to summon arceus to begin with? I know he gave a fraction to a human and he sealed them but does hoopa have any way to stop that? Would summoning arceus stop that? Did it try to summon every legendary at once? Idk it feels like it is good evidence on theory but doesn't seem to have actually happend like that
It just sounds arceus stopped hoopa before it even tried to summon him?
2. I lean on disagree with downgrading arceus, the statements about "beyond" and "transcendence" means nothing on their own obviously, but once you take into account the how arceus himself is portrayed as unbound from and predating spacetime, making them pieces of himself, i think this leans more to superiority, but uh, isn't the heart poem in japanese about humans perceiving spacetime rather than the heart creating it via awareness?
Neutral on his dimension downgrade, i think the context for beyond still works, especially with the movie where it is "higher than the other spaces" being palkia and dialga's true forms, but at the same time, i agree that it is less evident + "located" hurts it, so meh
plus the hoopa stuff is about how the rings in-verse have infinite power and reach the 2-A scale to summon palkia and dialga, but apparentely couldn't reach arceus?
I mean, i do think this hypothetically could work and all, since it seems to be placing 2-A into a infinite and arceus' realm into another, being inaccessible and all, but like, does hoopa ever try to summon arceus to begin with? I know he gave a fraction to a human and he sealed them but does hoopa have any way to stop that? Would summoning arceus stop that? Did it try to summon every legendary at once? Idk it feels like it is good evidence on theory but doesn't seem to have actually happend like that
It just sounds arceus stopped hoopa before it even tried to summon him?
Sniper670
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Nah. He doesn't fit paradoxical type. Original Spirit has no form.
The Creation story talks about how the Pokémon, Arceus, created the multiverse. The Original One manifested Arceus to do that. The concepts of Space and time are aspects of his avatar.
And Uhh, no? The story about the Spirit talks about The Original Spirit.
The only part which talks about humans perceiving space time was the fact that they all shared the same spirit and thus, should have been able to understand each other
Hoopa never tried to summon Arceus tho or try to reach it.
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the justification is bad, thats all
Sniper670
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Anyway. As I mentioned earlier, everything exists inside the Spirit, which is Mind. He's not really the creator, but it thought a 2A entity into being, referring to Arceus.
Pokémon does use Hindu Mythology of Brahman and all
It's in similar case of Saguna Brahman and Nirgua Brahman. Saguna Brahman being Arceus, The Creator, with the multiverse being a literal extension of him, while Nirgua Brahman is the Original Spirit himself. Formless, and without attributes as everything in the multiverse exists to represent him, as was mentioned earlier.
Iirc if the cosmology exists in your mind, it's low 1C. So I propose we change the current justification. That's all.
Cosmology
Pokémon does use Hindu Mythology of Brahman and all
It's in similar case of Saguna Brahman and Nirgua Brahman. Saguna Brahman being Arceus, The Creator, with the multiverse being a literal extension of him, while Nirgua Brahman is the Original Spirit himself. Formless, and without attributes as everything in the multiverse exists to represent him, as was mentioned earlier.
Iirc if the cosmology exists in your mind, it's low 1C. So I propose we change the current justification. That's all.
Cosmology
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Ya this seems fine then. Nice drawing you got. As the member above stated, even imagining 4D as fiction is low 1-C, so yaAnyway. As I mentioned earlier, everything exists inside the Spirit, which is Mind. He's not really the creator, but it thought a 2A entity into being, referring to Arceus.
Pokémon does use Hindu Mythology of Brahman and all
It's in similar case of Saguna Brahman and Nirgua Brahman. Saguna Brahman being Arceus, The Creator, with the multiverse being a literal extension of him, while Nirgua Brahman is the Original Spirit himself. Formless, and without attributes as everything in the multiverse exists to represent him, as was mentioned earlier.
Iirc if the cosmology exists in your mind, it's low 1C. So I propose we change the current justification. That's all.
Cosmology
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Where is that from?
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I thought it was cut from the shared canon?
Is it from the dark matter game?
Is it from the dark matter game?
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Thank god
The only one i know where arceus appears is that one, so it might be it, might be worth viewing more dialogue if possible
The only one i know where arceus appears is that one, so it might be it, might be worth viewing more dialogue if possible
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found a spreadsheet of the game dialogue on reddit and a somewhat different translation of it:
I am Arceus. I am the existence within nothingness.
We and our universe are both nothing and something…
Everything has two sides.
same meaning as the one you posted though i think it is even better proof of paradoxal nep and transduality because of the "existence within nothingness" bit, but both could work tbh.
(also this kind of dialogue seems to be a introductionary one they all do, but like, even his children are like "ayo i'm palkia, i'm in charge of space, roooar" or regigigas lamenting slow start then arceus casually tells you a bit of how the metaphysical side of the universe works while flexing because why not, and when he is at less than 50% hp, he just goes "We are to accept everything as it is…", phillosophical arceus was canon before legends came lol)
oh yeah, i put the japanese part in deepL to get an idea and:
I am Arceus. I am the "Yes" within the "nothing". We and the universe are both "Yes" and "No. ......" Everything is two sides of the same coin.
obviously putting it on a online translator is dumb and you can see issues there, but if this is near accurate, it interesting that he uses yes and no in this case.
I am Arceus. I am the existence within nothingness.
We and our universe are both nothing and something…
Everything has two sides.
same meaning as the one you posted though i think it is even better proof of paradoxal nep and transduality because of the "existence within nothingness" bit, but both could work tbh.
(also this kind of dialogue seems to be a introductionary one they all do, but like, even his children are like "ayo i'm palkia, i'm in charge of space, roooar" or regigigas lamenting slow start then arceus casually tells you a bit of how the metaphysical side of the universe works while flexing because why not, and when he is at less than 50% hp, he just goes "We are to accept everything as it is…", phillosophical arceus was canon before legends came lol)
oh yeah, i put the japanese part in deepL to get an idea and:
I am Arceus. I am the "Yes" within the "nothing". We and the universe are both "Yes" and "No. ......" Everything is two sides of the same coin.
obviously putting it on a online translator is dumb and you can see issues there, but if this is near accurate, it interesting that he uses yes and no in this case.
Sniper670
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The Nothingness here refers to the Undifferentiated state of the Universe where everything intermingled and the same. Where distinctions didn't exist inside the Spirit/Heart/Mind
Primordial Chaos itself is NEP 2 as it is the Nothing that precedes the concept of nonexistence that Giratina embodies
Primordial Chaos itself is NEP 2 as it is the Nothing that precedes the concept of nonexistence that Giratina embodies
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