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Pokemon AP/Durability upgrade (All Tier 7s)

@TheBlueDash yes, i disagree, meanly because in the newer pokemon games the animation only shows a small cloud and the calc uses pixel mesurament is a context where a 1,8 meter electivire and a 14,5 meters wailord look almost the same size
 
It uses the official height from the Pokedex, there is no pixel scaling involved
 
LordAizenSama said:
There are multiple staff who havent replied to this thread due to.. issues that also disagree. (Antonio, Gwynbleidd and Dark649)

Also Gwynbleidd pointed out issues with the calc itself that havent been addressed
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I see. Well I'm a patient girl, and would rather hear them out first before deciding anything. It's best to wait for them.
 
Considering I did the exact same thing as other accepted cloud calcs, I don't see what the problem was there. Also...Dark doesn't disagree.
 
I would like more input on the Charizard calc, as there seems to be some issues with whether or not it can be used.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Charizard_melts_stuff

I also still think we should address one statement I've made earlier:

Me, Cal, and Radical have all calc'd feats and gotten High 6-C high end results, and these are all feats from normal Pokemon. Throw in 6-C Delibird and Magnitude and we have some strong consistency going on.
 
After a further analysis i disagree. The Charizard calc comes from a totally different continuity where Lombre, who was praising his power from probably a lie, which was told to him because he also believed to Gengar, who was lying and that Charizard was stomped by Mewtwo, who was stomped by the protagonist, so this should be not taken. The same can be said about the 6-C Delibird from the manga, who was vastly trained just like the Octillery that filled the lake valor. Lastly we have the Dugtrio magnitude attack, which is iffy because in a fight it is nearly impossible to expect a magnitude 10 and the Tyranitar calc should be checked.
 
How is Charizard being stomped by Mewtwo proof that he can't do a Mountain level+ feat? The other statements about Pokémon he gives in conjunction to Charizard's really aren't innacurate, so it's odd to center on the one that gives the highest feat and say it's a lie.
 
Well the mountain level+ feat might be true, but it comes from a Charizard (Even if he is wild), who earned these praises through training by exploring and complete missions, so he's vastly superior to Charizard that evolved after a very short time. Also it comes from a series where a Grovyle can take on Dialga.
 
I also said that I don't think that baseline Charizards are 7-A+, only the strong Charizards.

And that second feat seems like a real outlier.
 
I don't understand how it being a trained Charizard is an issue. Since when did we establish a rule that the profiles had to be depictions of some random joe-schmo member of that species in the wild? Charizard being able to melt mountains is still a good feat that describes what the species is capable of at their peaks. As long as the feat doesn't come from scaling to a completely different species, then it should be fine.

And once again, the blog is meant to support the consistency of feats of this caliber in the verse as a whole, not just for Charizard.

EDIT:

Also, I'd like to mention that Pokemon as a whole is littered with inconsistencies like Grovyle fighting Dialga, not just PMD. We typically ignore scaling normal Pokemon up to legendaries, as it leads to inflated stats.
 
Yes, it can be applied since our pokemon profiles are composite, but being scaled to other trained pokemon seems strange since the 6-C Delibird, might give the impression the every composite max trained pokemon is superior to it.
 
Well, a case-by-case should logically apply, but it is possible for some composite strong fully-evolved pokemon to be 6-C, but not for everyone fully-evolved pokemon to scale to it.

However, Tier 7 feats for Pokémon only pile up on top of each other. Narutoforums recently found a Low 7-C feat for a Jessie / James Team Rocket Pokemon.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
How is Charizard being stomped by Mewtwo proof that he can't do a Mountain level+ feat? The other statements about Pokémon he gives in conjunction to Charizard's really aren't innacurate, so it's odd to center on the one that gives the highest feat and say it's a lie.
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Well nonetheless, a fanboy's hype isn't guaranteed to be accurate. Besides that, it is from a Charizard that's part of an experienced & well-known (in-universe.) Rescue Team; Even without a trainer, that Charizard should be considered "trained", even if only by journeys within the setting.

I don't deny that if what he says is true, then it supports the existence of higher end feats in that range for Pokemon of comparable strength, presuming it's consistent with the power within the setting.

However, if what Lombre says isn't hyperbole, then what of the fact that this is a trained Charizard? Just because such feats are possible within the setting, for a trained/very experienced Rescue Team elite Pokemon doesn't mean all of its species can achieve similar such results.

For reference, & assuming I understand things correctly:


Charizard melts a mountain (Low end) = 3.86 Gigatons of TNT

Charizard melts a mountain (High end) = 142 Gigatons of TNT

The calc, when using Mt. Fuji's volume, got: 790 Megatons - Mountain level+

The low end would be Large Mountain/Small Island Level, if I understand right.

The high end would be Low Large Island Level.


Normally, a Charizard is "At least 7-C, likely 7-B" with the Mega Forms being "At least 7-A" via scaling.

Besides the possibility of a 7-C to 7-B achieving High End Large Mountain Level to Low End Large Island Level results being an outlier, I think it may be worth also considering that this Charizard, thanks to training & such, is not of a normal level of strength for his species, due to a form of "training"/experience.


It's fine using it as an example of how Pokemon can achieve high results, IMHO, but not necessarily for scaling non-PMD wild Charizards, or those meant to be comparable to non-PMD wild Charizards, I'd say.
 
Well, Grovyle was a trained pokémon (had a trainer) and only faced Primal Dialga, a version considerably weaker than the original ...
 
@Neo

I see, thank you for the info.

@Imaginym

The people here have already agreed that calling the character a "fanboy" is inaccurate, and the other statements that the character makes in the scene are generally accurate, and considering how this Charizard is a really strong, well-trained one, and as you pointed out regular Charizards are like 7-C to 7-B, it is very much acceptable.
 
6-C may be an outlier on Delibird's part. At least in Charizard's case, it's no stranger to melting massive objects and landmarks, as normal wild Charizards can melt massive glaciers and boulders, so melting a mountain doesn't seem out of place for one that's been trained.

Meanwhile Delibird is usually portrayed as weak, so it's a sudden 6-C feat that came straight out of nowhere from a Pokemon who has virtually no feats to begin with.

As of now, 7-A is far more consistent, as we have many more Tier 7 feats to go by than Tier 6 feats.
 
Yeah, I also think that 7-A is an ideal rating for the strongest non Legendary or Pseudo-Legendary Pokémon.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Neo
I see, thank you for the info.

@Imaginym

The people here have already agreed that calling the character a "fanboy" is inaccurate, and the other statements that the character makes in the scene are generally accurate, and considering how this Charizard is a really strong, well-trained one, and as you pointed out regular Charizards are like 7-C to 7-B, it is very much acceptable.
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Just saying, I feel it would be a bit odd/outlier-ish for a species normally about 7-B without going Mega to reach High 7-A+ or Low 6-C, even among the regular, untrained wild PMD Charizards, & by extension, stuff scaling from such wild Charizard.

But it's a Pokemon feat, so I'm also not opposed to it being used as an example of how the series can achieve such high results even among non-Legendaries, for all that's worth.

Pardon any bother, please.
 
Overlord775 said:
just to remind everyone, a very well trained magikarp can beat a tyranitar
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We are not talking about Lv.99 Pokémon in-game. At least that's not the impression I get.

We're talking about Pokémon that are well-trained and strong in the narrative.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
We're talking about Pokémon that are well-trained and strong in the narrative.
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what do you mean by pokemon strong in the narrative ? pseudo legendary pokemon ?
 
@Overlord. I'm sorry, but that argument is used as a way to make Pokemon in general to seem weaker than they are, normal or not. Switch Tyranitar out for Mewtwo. Or Giratina. You see what I mean.
 
@Overlord

Care to provide context? Is this feat from somewhere in the anime or manga, or does it come from the games? Either way it shouldn't be used as an argument against the upgrades.

Pikachu can paralyze Arceus in the anime, and gameplay wise a Caterpie could beat a Tyrannitar. Both of these are blatant inconsistencies, and we tend to ignore stuff like that. The former is due to PIS, the latter is because by that logic any Pokemon could scale to each other, which would lead to 2-B rankings for the whole verse.

EDIT: Ninja'd by cal
 
Thank you for attempting to keep this discussion calm and reasonable. If it starts to get out of control again, it is probably best to close the thread and find another feat to scale from instead. Pokemon scaling is not sufficiently important to tear our community apart about it.
 
Overlord775 said:
what do you mean by pokemon strong in the narrative ? pseudo legendary pokemon ?
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A Pokémon that's stated by characters to be well trained and strong, such as the 7-A Charizard.

Not your Lv.90 Pikachu.
 
@OL. Not a problem at all, bud.

Anyway, are we going for 7-A or High 7-A? And if High is going to be dropped, where are Megas (and Pseudos if SD doesn't mind) getting put?
 
anyway the SMD charizard feat shouldn't be used to upgrade normal charizard (just like wigglypuff or darkray), but it could be added a SMD key to charizard
 
Also I have a thread planned for Mystery Dungeon, that I've been meaning to do for awhile.....And it will still take a bit considering.....well Digimon stuff. So stay tuned. ovo
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Also I have a thread planned for Mystery Dungeon, that I've been meaning to do for awhile.....And it will still take a bit considering.....well Digimon stuff. So stay tuned. ovo
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Digimon goes from Tier 7 to 4 and nobody bats an eye. Pokemon goes from Tier 7 to a higher Tier 7 and it causes immense controversy.
 
It mostly stems from preconceived notions brought by memories of watching only the early seasons of the anime as a kid that the Pokemon are meant to be weak.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It mostly stems from preconceived notions brought by memories of watching only the early seasons of the anime as a kid that the Pokemon are meant to be weak.
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nah, it's probably the tyranitar fans that want him to remain the god-tier of the non-legendary pokemons, but your reason is also really good
 
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