Plants vs Sayian's: Vash vs Son Goku

[XXKINGXX69]

I'm FR just voting him until Vash supporters come in

 

[Deceived3596]

As someone who doesn't no either character (In terms of Vs Debating).

Gin's arguments for Vash are a hell a-lot more persuasive then any from Goku side.

So my vote is for Vash via outraging Goku and possessing hax that Goku has no way of getting around like 5D Causality Manipulation and his Black-Holes as well.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I don't really care about this matchup.

What I want to say is that you don't necessarily need Conceptual Manipulation to interact with Abstract Existence beings.

AE covers everything that is considered an "abstraction" which includes ideas, feelings, emotions AND concepts.

It's not limited to concepts like some people are trying to imply here.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

For a terrible reason, that being Champa and Beerus almost destroying two Universes, which still wouldn't put you at 2-C going by wiki standards. Again, such as feat would just be above baseline Low 2-C.

Vash fought someone literally Infinitely above Low 2-C, Goku is not one shotting.

Destroying 2 universes is not 2-C? Okay lmao.
Anyway Goku still downscales from 2-C whether you like it or not so he still has the AP advantage by tons. You don't think so then make a crt.

Ransom power generation, Regeneration, allowing for matter hax, etc. This is all explained in the Trigun profiles if you'd even bother reading them.

What's a ransom power generation?

My dude just linked me to thread where 2-C range as literally rejected hard-core.

Irrelevant, range was rejected because it was given due to scaling to beerus. (Which is dumb anyway) (also beerus has 2-C range yet his feat with champa is low 2-C???)

Goku isn't stronger than a High end 4-D to 5-D being. Now prove to me that Goku can null 5-D abilities, enough of your blatant Dragon Ball wank.

If his abilities are actually 5D then he definitely can't do anything to stop it.

I find it both extremely ironic and hilarious that you say that I don't know anything about Dragon Ball scaling whenever you don't know Jack shit about Trigun scaling or even how dimensional scaling works. First of all, no it's 4-D for having higher D statements so that's wrong. Secondly, 5-D hax isn't the same as being able to bust 2-A structures, your Dimensionality stopped scaling to cosmic level feats a long time ago. Simply being 5-D doesn't mean you suddenly

Yeah I don't know anything about this obscure verse. Okay fine I get it, his black hole is 5D, goku can only teleport to vash to avoid it.

For the last damn time no. Literally me and KingTempest both told you this how many times? Low Tier Kenbunshoku haki users get precognition via mind reading, intent reading is apart of their Enhanced Senses / Extrasensory Perception. You explained

I thought you said mid tiers get it via mind reading? And how is intent sensing much different?

First is something literally anyone with Analytical Prediction can do, and again the second is enhanced senses. Not Analytical Prediction, Goku is just feeling vibrations in the air with his sharp senses, he isn't predicting the opponent's next move since he's sensing them to begin with. His hit feat is literally mathematic based.

Vash scales above those who have scaling above people who can do the same shit with their Predictions. Low tier Eye of Michael members have 3 forms of Analytical Prediction (Intent sensing, Mental warning, and muscle movement.), high tiers can skill stomp Livio's Analytical Prediction, and Vash scales stupidly above that.

Okay.
Feeling vibrations in the air allows Goku to sense the smallest movements his opponent make so he can predict their moves.
So before you are saying intent sensing is enhanced senses now it's analytical prediction??? Anyway vash clearly outsenses goku.

These are basic ass applications of Information Analysis so that's quite frankly unimpressive.

That's unimpressive??

Which again, doesn't increase his skill. That just reduces the amount of action he needs to take, which doesn't matter since his opponent can do the same exact shit.

It makes his fighting ability more potent because he can focus all his brain power on strategy.

Because he doesn't have the feats to back up such a statement. Has Goku ever used U.I to fight with all his senses gone? No? Okay cool, end of discussion.

Goku's UI has a very high potency and even his weakest UI has shown to be able to act while Goku himself is unconcious like with bulma and beerus examples on his profile.

Vash can teleport as well, with more accurate precision and way less focus. Also Vegata's Dirty Fire-Works isn't something that Goku has shown so that's irrelevant.


Analytical Prediction, and Teleportation. Vash has already dodged attacks point blank that can nuke entire countries, the much less skilled Knives's was able to dodge an attack that engulfed the entire planet.

Actually goku has shown the same type of kiai is vegeta but he doesn't use it under the same application as him because it's quite a bloodlusted move.
That's really impressive.

Skill, literally skill. Vash is the best dodged in Trigun, along with the most potent Analytical Prediction in his verse. Also no, Nappa doesn't have Country level AoE. His AoE is city level, not country level not sure where you got that from. And I've already cucked your AP argument so try again.

Nappa's attack was visible from space and engulfed a part of the earth, and him powering up shook the whole planet too.
You didn't **** anything. It's on the profiles.
Anyway Goku cannot counter the black hole except by teleporting directly to vash who outsenses, out teleports and outhaxxes along woth being able to dodge country level AoE. I don't see a win condition for Goku anymore, do you see one?

 

[LordGinSama]

Destroying 2 universes is not 2-C? Okay lmao.
Anyway Goku still downscales from 2-C whether you like it or not so he still has the AP advantage by tons. You don't think so then make a crt.

Destroying 2 Universes spilt amongst 2 characters is not 2-C. If you even bothered reading the 2-C range thread that you yourself linked it's literally explained as such. Goku doesn't downscale from 2-C, as per wiki standards so I don't need to make a CRT, try again.

What's a ransom power generation?

Meant random.

I thought you said mid tiers get it via mind reading? And how is intent sensing much different?

Mid Tiers get it via mind reading yes. We afenf talking about Mid tiers, you brought up the Low tiers in this thread. They have Analytical Prediction based on sending intentions such as bloodlust, which doesn't require you to read the opponent's mind.

Okay.
Feeling vibrations in the air allows Goku to sense the smallest movements his opponent make so he can predict their moves.

Goku isn't predicting their moves, he's just using his enhanced senses to keep track of them.

So before you are saying intent sensing is enhanced senses now it's analytical

You can have Analytical Prediction via enhanced senses. Enhanced Senses can include things like intent sensing, and muscle reading which are Analytical Prediction not Precognition. Precognition and Analytical Prediction are similar in nature but they're different in usage and versatility.

That's unimpressive??

Quite frankly yes. That's like what Information Analysis already kinda does, that's basic in the long run.

Goku's UI has a very high potency and even his weakest UI has shown to be able to act while Goku himself is unconcious like with bulma and beerus examples on his profile.

Just because your unconscious doesn't mean that you lose all of your senses, and I.R already covers fighting while unconscious.

Actually goku has shown the same type of kiai is vegeta but he doesn't use it under the same application as him because it's quite

Scans?

Nappa's attack was visible from space and engulfed a part of the earth, and him powering up shook the whole planet too.

Being visible from space isn't an indication of country level AoE. Hurricanes are always visible from space, that doesn't give them country wide AoE now does it?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Destroying 2 Universes spilt amongst 2 characters is not 2-C. If you even bothered reading the 2-C range thread that you yourself linked it's literally explained as such. Goku doesn't downscale from 2-C, as per wiki standards so I don't need to make a CRT, try again.

What wiki standards support what you're saying? How come destroying 2 universes isn't a 2-C feat? You are required to do a CRT to argue against this. Otherwise it's written down on the profiles and accepted as such.

Meant random.

I was asking what it does but it doesn't matter anymore.

Mid Tiers get it via mind reading yes. We afenf talking about Mid tiers, you brought up the Low tiers in this thread. They have Analytical Prediction based on sending intentions such as bloodlust, which doesn't require you to read the opponent's mind.

Alright so intent sensing for Goku still qualifies as at least analytical prediction.

Goku isn't predicting their moves, he's just using his enhanced senses to keep track of them.
You can have Analytical Prediction via enhanced senses. Enhanced Senses can include things like intent sensing, and muscle reading which are Analytical Prediction not Precognition. Precognition and Analytical Prediction are similar in nature but they're different in usage and versatility.

I know that. Goku never displayed true precognition.

Quite frankly yes. That's like what Information Analysis already kinda does, that's basic in the long run.

I don't think it is honestly, but it's at least an awesome skill feat.

Just because your unconscious doesn't mean that you lose all of your senses, and I.R already covers fighting while unconscious.

I thoight it would also cover fighting without senses, as your body is reacting by itself without you needing to use your senses.

Scans?

10:58
This is a kiai that spawns directly on the target, Goku can use it with the same application as vegeta did but he just needs to spawn it inside his opponent.

Being visible from space isn't an indication of country level AoE. Hurricanes are always visible from space, that doesn't give them country wide AoE now does it

The blast created a flash and shockwave which looked like this.

This is much migger than city AoE.
Hurricane is a bad example because hurricanes are not visible from space to the extent of dwarfing countries.

 

[LordGinSama]

What wiki standards support what you're saying? How come destroying 2 universes isn't a 2-C feat? You are required to do a CRT to argue against this. Otherwise

Literally that's just how Tier 2 scaling works. Destroying 2 Universes which share the same space-time continuum does not qualify for a rating of 2-C. You could be dozens of times above Baseline Low 2-C and still remain at Low 2-C. It's literally why you can't go from Low 2-C to 2-C via a multiplier. And just because it's in the profile doesn't make it wrong, that's one of the worst arguments you can make.


But if you want me to I'll go ahead and do just that.

This is a kiai that spawns directly on the target, Goku can use it with the same application as vegeta did but he just needs to spawn it inside his opponent.

No Vegata's Dirty Fire-Works spawns inside the target, and Goku causing a random explosion isn't the same as spawning the attack directly on someone.

The blast created a flash and shockwave which looked like this.

Art inconsistencies exist, the Blast didn't level country's or even anything close to it. There's no reason to assume that it engulfed countries whenever it visibly only affected a city, and once we see the explosion at a closer range it's much smaller. Also this is a hurricane seen from space so yeah no.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, Nappa's AOE is pretty hefty, it was a unrealistically large city.
V̵a̵s̵h̵ ̵f̵u̵c̵k̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵t̵h̵r̵o̵t̵t̵l̵e̵s̵ ̵G̵o̵k̵u̵ ̵t̵h̵o̵.̵ ̵

 

[LordGinSama]

I can concede on the Nappa part but I still doubt that really comes close to Knives's who can nuke big ass landscapes on a massive planet like No-Mans-land. Or the Thor's Hammer, which Knives's easily dodged.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Literally that's just how Tier 2 scaling works. Destroying 2 Universes which share the same space-time continuum does not qualify for a rating of 2-C. You could be dozens of times above Baseline Low 2-C and still remain at Low 2-C. It's literally why you can't go from Low 2-C to 2-C via a multiplier. And just because it's in the profile doesn't make it wrong, that's one of the worst arguments you can make.


But if you want me to I'll go ahead and do just that.

Bruh you really don't have a clue. The universes in db are considered separate space time continuums, this makes the feat 2-C. Else it'd be 3-A. Don't bother with that CRT anymore, you'd would be trying to change the cosmology which is a against a discussion rule.

No Vegata's Dirty Fire-Works spawns inside the target, and Goku causing a random explosion isn't the same as spawning the attack directly on someone.

Wrong, his kiai is spawning where he's looking, frieza also did one similar and it spawned directly on Goku. Besides, you really think there's such a basic application of kiai that Goku can't replicate?

Art inconsistencies exist, the Blast didn't level country's or even anything close to it. There's no reason to assume that it engulfed countries whenever it visibly only affected a city, and once we see the explosion at a closer range it's much smaller. Also this is a hurricane seen from space so yeah no.

Yet it affected the entire planet with that attack. Tien shinhan on a completely different part of the planet saw and felt it, nay all the Z fighters who were all over the planet felt it. That hurricane picture is taken very close to the earths surface which gives the illusion that it's huge, it's not necessarily country sized.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bruh you really don't have a clue. The universes in db are considered separate space time continuums, this makes the feat 2-C. Else it'd be 3-A. Don't bother with that CRT anymore, you'd would be trying to change the cosmology which is a against a discussion rule

Point me to the thread where it was accepted as having different time-space continuums for each universe if your so damn confident kiddo.

Wrong, his kiai is spawning where he's looking, frieza also did one similar and it spawned directly on Goku. Besides, you really think there's such a basic application of kiai that Goku can't replicate?

First of all Dirty Fire-Works isn't even considered Kiai, secondly no. He's not spawning it directly on the ground or else there wouldn't be a gust heading towards the ground.


This is literally the description of Kiai.


The ability to project an invisible burst of force with ki, which Goku can perform with his hands and even with a glare.


It's a burst of force that, not something that spawns on the target. It's literally just a blast that affects the air around the user.

Yet it affected the entire planet with that attack. Tien shinhan on a completely different part of the planet saw and felt it, nay all the Z fighters who were all over the planet felt it. That hurricane picture is taken very close to the earths surface which gives the illusion that it's huge, it's not necessarily country sized.

Failing to provide proper context in order to make the feat seem more impressive than what it is, typical behavior from you regarding Dragon Ball.

First of all, it never affected the entire planet. The city nuking caused Earthquake's, which aren't even noted to be spread around the entire planet. This is the best amount of damage the explosion actually caused.

The only time where Nappa effected the entire planet was here.

 

[Chariot190]

Voting Vash fyi, debating if Goku can do this or that doesn't matter much, even if he could or can do that stuff, he'd still lose like 9 times out of 10.

 

[Lynieryz]

Vash fra.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

The 60 billion double-dollar man FRA

 

[Confluctor]

Anyway sea weed fra

 

[sanicspood]

vash slams fra

 

[LordGinSama]

Any sea weed fra

Whom?

 

[Confluctor]

Vash

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Point me to the thread where it was accepted as having different time-space continuums for each universe if your so damn confident kiddo.

There are countless countless threads regarding the cosmology it's maddening. I can't believe you don't know how the DB cosmology works. This is close enough though. It's a discussion rule.

• Do not create discussion threads trying to change Infinite Zamasu's Low 2-C rating without new evidence. We have had repetitive and extensive discussions on why Infinite Zamasu's feat of becoming the universe is Low 2-C, and not 3-A or 2-C. There is sufficient proof of him merging with time as noted on the profile, and we do not consider the feat to be 2-C because no proof of Zamasu fully merging with more than one universe exists.

The wiki considers merging with one universe low 2-C and merging with more than one universe 2-C. That is why zamasu is low 2-C for fusing with universe 7. I believe that is enough. Again, don't bother creating a crt anymore.

First of all Dirty Fire-Works isn't even considered Kiai, secondly no. He's not spawning it directly on the ground or else there wouldn't be a gust heading towards the ground.


This is literally the description of Kiai.


The ability to project an invisible burst of force with ki, which Goku can perform with his hands and even with a glare.


It's a burst of force that, not something that spawns on the target. It's literally just a blast that affects the air around the user.

Alright I checked and it seems I was mistaken. The dragon ball wiki does not consider the dirty fireworks a kiai technique.
However, the invisible eye blast technique does actually spawn on the target. Look, the technique appears directly where Goku is looking with no gust of air.

So does freeza's application.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Failing to provide proper context in order to make the feat seem more impressive than what it is, typical behavior from you regarding Dragon Ball.

First of all, it never affected the entire planet. The city nuking caused Earthquake's, which aren't even noted to be spread around the entire planet. This is the best amount of damage the explosion actually caused.

The only time where Nappa effected the entire planet was here.

It was still affecting that entire area that was lit up on the earth which is easily country level AoE.

Voting Vash fyi, debating if Goku can do this or that doesn't matter much, even if he could or can do that stuff, he'd still lose like 9 times out of 10.

I don't see a win condition for Goku anymore.

Anyway Goku cannot counter the black hole except by teleporting directly to vash who outsenses, out teleports and outhaxxes along woth being able to dodge country level AoE. I don't see a win condition for Goku anymore, do you see one?

 

[LordGinSama]

There are countless countless threads regarding the cosmology it's maddening. I can't believe you don't know how the DB cosmology works. This is close enough though. It's a discussion rule.

That discussion rule makes no mention of the universes having a separate space-time continuum. I'll make a CRT if I so please, you have no authority to tell me what to do.


Anyway I've asked AKM about everything brought up here on his message wall, as I value and trust his words much more than I do yours to be succinct.

 

[sanicspood]

him being 2-c and beerus having 2-c are all based of dbs universes having separate space times

 

[Myguy]

i genuinely think that this is a stomp

what is goku's wincon again?

 

[StekFence]

Quantum is the best matter hax on the wik

There are some chars with lower than quantum matter manip so this would technically be wrong

 

[LordGinSama]

There are some chars with lower than quantum matter manip so this would technically be wrong

Such as?

 

[StekFence]

Such as?

Get back to you, as I’m not 100% sure I wasn’t bullshitting now

 

[StekFence]

Ok so, I looked at the profiles, and said chars actually manipulate matter on a level below quarks, which would be quantum manip i think

 

[StekFence]

So in actuality, the chars I’m thinking of, have the exact same matter manip. In my defence, I swear quantum manip wasn’t on the matter manip profile last time I checked

 

[TauanVictor]

Goku FRA,

 

[sanicspood]

via what