Plants vs Sayian's: Vash vs Son Goku

[Confluctor]

It is not fine to restrict abilities in a versus matchup, implicitly or expressly. Matches that are arranged this way should not be added to the character profiles, as they don't involve their full potential, and are only intended for casual entertainment. An exception would be if the restricted ability/technique has a separate tier from the main one. In this case, the match can be added. The match can also be added if Optional Equipments such as optional power-ups and items are restricted, or if the ability being restricted is indexed after a "Likely" or "Possibly" conditional

 

[LordGinSama]

So we're both right i guess, depends on the OP.

 

[Galaxi789]

the abilities possible if several characters are usable and several vs of zamas are used if that is. valid

 

[LordGinSama]

the abilities possible if several characters are usable and several vs of zamas are used if that is. valid

Well I'm the OP and that's an interpretation I'm not allowing so.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Welcome to anime sir.

Goku has never negated outright 4-D abilities so no. Also the gap between them definitely isn't infinite, and even if it were Vash caught hands with Ark Knive's who's literally Infinitely stronger than his last Low 2-C key.

Make a CRT on that then since that's pretty important for his profile. Since that would basically give Goku concept Manipulation since that's what you need to affect AE type 1.

You do know what Causality is right???? Like I can't even believe your saying this lmao. Next is gonna be "so what does 6-D Fate hax gonna do to Goku?" like I can't tell if this is a question or something along the lines of saying that Goku is some type of Acausal.

It's a 4-D hax, Goku isn't resistant to 4-D abilities maybe outside of like time Manipulation. Causality is the ability to create and control cause and effect directly, so for instance if Vash wanted to he could have all his attacks land on Goku by Manipulating the cause and effect.

Void Resistance doesn't really help him outside of resisting Vash's Angel Arm Erasure.

Flying away probably isn't gonna cut it given that they pull in with force, shoot at them wouldn't do much to actually stop them since they have Absorption and Goku doesn't have Attack Reflection like that either.

Vash can also teleport, and those those warping abilities had extremely difficult time reacting to them properly. Goku isn't Instant Teleporting them back to Vash either, if he gets close to them he dies. Goku needs to get in close for him to IT them, and he ain't doing that without getting reduced to particles.

You'd need to have evidence on Goku being able to fight without all 5 of his senses. Ki sensing would definitely help him out but U.I isn't a 6th sense, it's a state of mind that still functions on the 5 senses. Goku losing his 5 senses would definitely hinder him, especially losing his sense of touch.


Kiai isn't something Goku spams from the get go in character.

Goku power nulled Jiren's super 4D attack which is above vash's AP, he should be able to null similar 4D abilities.
Goku downscales from 2-C which is automatically above anything low 2-C so Goku still one shots.
You do not need conceptual manipulation, you just need NPI which he has, it's already accepted as such.
Bruh I'm not saying that as in Goku will tank it, I'm asking how it works so I can tell you if Goku has answers to it, if he can manipulate cause and effect to make Goku get hit by his attacks then the only thing I have is Goku should resist that kind of time manipulation but IDK if that would work.
Flying away would work if it's from a distance. Shooting them would work as the black hole page actually states that you can move black holes by shooting energy into them because they obey conservation of momentum or some jargon, so even if black holes absorb stuff, their trajectory will still be changed, also does it have feats of absorbing 2-C attacks, if not, Goku could probably destroy it like the pretty black hole.
Goku has precognition and analytical prediction + UI to counter teleportation. I meant Goku can either send the black holes back to vash, or teleport directly to him and catch him off guard and blink him into particles.
True, but ki sensing allows him to sense vash's presense and ki, as well as his surroundings and vashs intentions, Goku's UI can then fight for him based on that, until Goku adapts to fighting without his senses. I've also seen characters get instinctive reaction for fighting without any of their senses, so that's why Goku shouldn't be hindered.
Kiai is used when Goku needs an extremely fast move, and it's perfect in this case because it can kill vash in one hit so it will be used.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well I'm the OP and that's an interpretation I'm not allowing so.

That's not fair!

 

[LordGinSama]

That's not fair!

Let me reiterate, I'll restrict it till you make a CRT for Goku's NPI. You absolutely need conceptual Manipulation to interact with a type 1 AE, that requires you to directly effect the abstraction of which they embody. So it's a mixture of NPI and Conceptual Manipulation.


Also before I reply to your last wall coud you honestly do me a favor and edit it but this time make sure to actually use proper spacing. It's that much harder for me to reply to you properly whenever you write it without using paragraphs.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Let me reiterate, I'll restrict it till you make a CRT for Goku's NPI. You absolutely need conceptual Manipulation to interact with a type 1 AE, that requires you to directly effect the abstraction of which they embody. So it's a mixture of NPI and Conceptual Manipulation.

No you literally do not need that. You would get conceptual manipulation if you interact with an abstract which is a concept as well, but zamasu is pure will, that is not a concept, so you do not get conceptual manipulation for touching him. This is on the first sentence in the abstract existence page. And I don't need to make a CRT for something already accepted, the literal only reason why Goku's NPI is a "possibly" is because zamasu's abstract existence is also a "possibly", this means the wiki accepts Goku being able to touch abstract incorporeals.

Also before I reply to your last wall coud you honestly do me a favor and edit it but this time make sure to actually use proper spacing. It's that much harder for me to reply to you properly whenever you write it without using paragraphs.

No.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Does he have feats of being able to deflect city sized Black-Holes that destroy on a quantum level, BFR and effect Space-Time.

Casually deflected and dissipated attacks from Jiren, though I doubt it would really work on stuff like this, since Vash seems stupidly broken, Goku has no BFR resistance, due to BFR being excessively rare in dragonball. the closest we really have is the Dead Zone or Chronoa's BS with the time prison, Quantum level feats are nil, as I doubt the writers of dragonball even remotly understand that is (The average fan literally knows more about dragon ball than it's own writer, toriyama, which is legit sad, so my expectations for Toriyama knowing quantum science is low)





I'll form my opinion once I've done some research

 

[LordGinSama]

No you literally do not need that. You would get conceptual manipulation if you interact with an abstract which is a concept as well, but zamasu is pure will, that is not a concept, so you do not get conceptual manipulation for touching him. This is on the first sentence in the abstract existence page.

It's literally ******* stated in same exact page that your literally referring to.

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.


Goku would need conceptual manipulation in order to interact with a Type 1 Abstract.

And I don't need to make a CRT for something already accepted, the literal only reason why Goku's NPI is a "possibly" is because zamasu's abstract existence is also a "possibly", this means the wiki accepts Goku being able to touch abstract incorporeals.

And he still needs conceptual manipulation in order to do that so no. Type 1 is embodiment of something such as a concept, which in turn means that you need to be able to manipulate concepts.

No.

Oh look at that! Visible salt. Not really sure why your denying a simple ass request, I assume it's because you lack the ability to even form a proper paragraph to start with.

Anyway, Goku doesn't Backscale from 2-C, he scales above Infinite Zamasu. Goku isn't stated to be comparable to Whis anywhere in his profile so looks like we have the typical Dragon Ball fan trying to make shit up again.

Goku power nulled Jiren's super 4D attack which is above vash's AP, he should be able to null similar 4D abilities

Via nullifying of Ki. That's completely different than nullifying an actual 4-D Hax. Goku's Nullification is a byproduct of his AP, he isn't nullifying a black hole that doesn't have Ki, and no its not above Vash's own 4-D scaling. Vash's hax is High end 4-D to upwards to 5-D in potency.

Goku downscales from 2-C which is automatically above anything low 2-C so Goku still one shots

Goku doesn't scale to Whis at all.

Flying away would work if it's from a distance. Shooting them would work as the black hole page actually states that you can move black holes by shooting energy into them because they obey conservation of momentum or some jargon, so even if black holes absorb stuff, their trajectory will still be changed, also does it have feats of absorbing 2-C attacks, if not, Goku could probably destroy it like the pretty black hole.

First of all Goku isn't 2-C so you need to cease with these random ass abilities and Stats that you pull outta nowhere for Dragon Ball Characters. Goku is Low 2-C, not 2-C nor does he get scaling from Whis in anyway shape or form. Once again, shooting energy at something that can absorb attacks passively is a good idea, Vash's Black-Hole's don't share the same weakness as a typical black hole either so nope.

destroy it like the pretty black hole.
Goku has precognition and analytical prediction + UI to counter teleportation.

Goku doesn't have Precognition, we've been over this. Goku has Analytical Prediction, at no point does Goku see into the future. Also literally everyone worth a damn has Analytical Prediction and Information Analysis, and Vash's scales above everyone's Analytical Prediction and Information Analysis in the verse.


Nowhere in Goku's page is Precognition. He has Analytical Prediction. Make a CRT if you think he has Yhwach levels of Future sight or else I'm just gonna start ignoring you and these made up abilities.

I've also seen characters get instinctive reaction for fighting without any of their senses, so that's why Goku shouldn't be hindered

That's good for those characters, unfortunately for you we aren't gonna scale everything that another character has done with their IR from different verses to Goku's U.I. That's a feat they've accomplished and something that Goku himself hasn't shown.

Kiai is used when Goku needs an extremely fast move, and it's perfect in this case because it can kill vash in one hit so it will be used.

Fortunately Vash can dodge, evade or null it with his own form of Power Nullification.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Righty, Im seeing this heat up a bit, so Imma go

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Also, Im still trying to understand the analytical aspect of the term "Analytical Prediction" when applied to ultra instinct, which is the body automatically responding, which leaves the mind free for other things... then again, Toriyama doesn't know how these kinds of things work, so I guess thats the best and fairest description of it

 

[LordGinSama]

U.I isn't Analytical Prediction. It's Instinctive Reaction, two pretty different abilities. Actually in the I.R page it's stated that Analytical Prediction and Precognition are counters to this ability depending on how they work.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Then... why... Know what?


I'm blaming all of my confusion in life as of late on fluffy

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

It's fluffy's fault, always has been : P

 

[LordGinSama]

Lol.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

U.I isn't Analytical Prediction. It's Instinctive Reaction, two pretty different abilities. Actually in the I.R page it's stated that Analytical Prediction and Precognition are counters to this ability depending on how they work.

I hope you know, I'm storing this info for my Vin (Mistborn) solos argument later

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

ha can use IT to avoid them

Instant transmission is kinda bad at dodging, since it's not a unlimited teleport, it needs someone to lock onto, and appears nearby them, so it could end up being very predictable with some analysis


also


Minor spelling mistake, I win

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It's literally ******* stated in same exact page that your literally referring to.

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.


Goku would need conceptual manipulation in order to interact with a Type 1 Abstract.

Abstractions can be concepts and can be things that are not concepts. Look.
"Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it."
See it can be a concept or thought or information, zamasu's does not fall under concept, it falls under thought, you don't need CM.

And he still needs conceptual manipulation in order to do that so no. Type 1 is embodiment of something such as a concept, which in turn means that you need to be able to manipulate concepts.

And zamasu doesn't embody a concept.

Oh look at that! Visible salt. Not really sure why your denying a simple ass request, I assume it's because you lack the ability to even form a proper paragraph to start with.

Anyway, Goku doesn't Backscale from 2-C, he scales above Infinite Zamasu. Goku isn't stated to be comparable to Whis anywhere in his profile so looks like we have the typical Dragon Ball fan trying to make shit up again.

I was being sarcastic, I did what you asked for and at the same time denied your request. You're always so butthurt and angry gin man, you are always like this in literally every debate you participate in. Just chill lol.
UI Goku doesn't scale above infinite Zamasu. What has whis got to do with anything?

Via nullifying of Ki. That's completely different than nullifying an actual 4-D Hax. Goku's Nullification is a byproduct of his AP, he isn't nullifying a black hole that doesn't have Ki, and no its not above Vash's own 4-D scaling. Vash's hax is High end 4-D to upwards to 5-D in potency.

Fair point, but... high end 4D? That would be multiversal to multiversal+ tier... uh scans? His range is only universe+.

Goku doesn't scale to Whis at all.

He clearly does not.

First of all Goku isn't 2-C so you need to cease with these random ass abilities and Stats that you pull outta nowhere for Dragon Ball Characters. Goku is Low 2-C, not 2-C nor does he get scaling from Whis in anyway shape or form. Once again, shooting energy at something that can absorb attacks passively is a good idea, Vash's Black-Hole's don't share the same weakness as a typical black hole either so nope.

Now I understand, you haven't the slightest clue how the top tiers of super scale.
Goku massively scales above Beerus, who with champa can perform a 2-C feat, so individually, they back scale from 2-C into low 2-C. whis scales above their combined force so he's 2-C, but Goku only scales massively above them individually so he downscales from 2-C and scales far above their "At least low 2-C" tier. This means Goku is nigh 2-C. Now prove that vash's black holes are capable of absorbing energy that strong, otherwise, they will act like normal black holes and won't null Goku's energy which is practically infinitely above vash's. They don't share the same weaknesses as black holes? So they aren't black holes anymore? Can Goku destroy them? If these count as real black holes then the pretty black hole should count too.

Goku doesn't have Precognition, we've been over this. Goku has Analytical Prediction, at no point does Goku see into the future. Also literally everyone worth a damn has Analytical Prediction and Information Analysis, and Vash's scales above everyone's Analytical Prediction and Information Analysis in the verse.


Nowhere in Goku's page is Precognition. He has Analytical Prediction. Make a CRT if you think he has Yhwach levels of Future sight or else I'm just gonna start ignoring you and these made up abilities

Goku should have precognition, intent sensing should count as you are knowing your opponents actions in the future, though I will admit it's a limited precognition but still precogntion. Goku has like 3 analytical predictions, 1 precognition and 2 information analysis', and they are all from previous arcs which Goku far surpasses now and they are insanely heightened by ultra instinct. pretty sure that's enough to beat vash. I never claimed he has yahahxh levels of future sight whoever the hell that is.

That's good for those characters, unfortunately for you we aren't gonna scale everything that another character has done with their IR from different verses to Goku's U.I. That's a feat they've accomplished and something that Goku himself hasn't shown.

Why not? That's how instinctive reaction works, and Goku has a very very potent one.

Fortunately Vash can dodge, evade or null it with his own form of Power Nullification.

Kiai's are invisible instant and sometimes just spawn on top of you, he ain't dodging. Prove he can null Goku's level of 4D AP if he can react to it.

Then... why... Know what?


I'm blaming all of my confusion in life as of late on fluffy

It's fluffy's fault, always has been : P

Your mad because your noob.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Your mad because your noob.

Whoever said I was angry? I may be a bit Crazy, but not angry

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Goku massively scales above Beerus

Ha... haha... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Try pulling that statement on the Dragonball wiki

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Ha... haha... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Try pulling that statement on the Dragonball wiki

I can't bro, there's this guy on that forum who keeps clapping everyone in debates. Dunno if you heard of him but he's called Master sir FluffyCreatureZ the second sama. He's too strong, he broke my legs 15 times.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

I can't bro, there's this guy on that forum who keeps clapping everyone in debates. Dunno if you heard of him but he's called sir FluffyCreatureZ the second san. He's too strong, he broke my legs 15 times.

Pretty sure I have a load of bs to answer like usual when I get back to that cell vs buu thread

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

tbh, Im doing that argument, for fun, since I actually gotta think critically for it, basically seeing how long I can hold out, though winning is bonus points

 

[LordGinSama]

Abstractions can be concepts and can be things that are not concepts. Look.
"Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it."
See it can be a concept or thought or information, zamasu's does not fall under concept, it falls under thought, you don't need CM.

Then he shouldn't even be a AE Type 1 to begin with.

And zamasu doesn't embody a concept.

Read above.

I was being sarcastic, I did what you asked for and at the same time denied your request. You're always so butthurt and angry gin man, you are always like this in literally every debate you participate in. Just chill lol.

No I don't think I will, and it's not acting butt hurt as much as it is being a case of you being shit at attempting to show that your being humorous.

UI Goku doesn't scale above infinite Zamasu. What has whis got to do with anything?

Universe level+ (Traded blows with a heavily suppressed Jiren, and shook the whole World of Void with his Ki alone. While Jiren was holding back, he was repeatedly described as the strongest enemy that Universe 7 had ever faced, and thus superior to Infinite Zamasu

At least Universe level+ (Fought on equal footing with a fully-powered Jiren, and was stated by Vegeta to “step over the state of the Gods”


Literally straight from Goku's profile.


Whis and Zeno are the only 2-C DBS characters. Goku scales above Low 2-C, not below 2-C.

Fair point, but... high end 4D? That would be multiversal to multiversal+ tier... uh scans? His range is only universe+.

That doesn't factor in his causality Manipulation. Trigun is a Multiverse, along with Gun-Grave.

This is the following statement we have from WoG for the extent of Plant's passive abilities and into the origins of it, and is accepted as such.

プラントはプランク的な不確定性を統制しエネルギー、物質、次元の操作など可能だが更には因果律の崩壊や創造が可能で全ての時間軸を含めた多元的宇宙、更に高位の次元にまで及ぶ。プラントの大元と呼べるものが多元的宇宙を遥かに上の高次元そのものであり、全ての始まりそのもの。

Which translates into "The plant can control plank-like uncertainty and manipulate energy, materials, and dimensions, but it can also collapse and create causality, extending to the multiverse including all time axes, and even higher dimensions.. What can be called the origin of the plant is the higher dimension itself far above the multiverse, and the beginning of everything itself."

Like I said not all of their abilities have that range, only their causality hax do. Which is all Vash needs to win here.

He clearly does not.

Exactly.

Now I understand, you haven't the slightest clue how the top tiers of super scale.
Goku massively scales above Beerus, who with champa can perform a 2-C feat, so individually, they back scale from 2-C into low 2-C. whis scales above their combined force so he's 2-C, but Goku only scales massively above them individually so he downscales from 2-C and scales far above their "At least low 2-C" tier. This means Goku is nigh 2-C.

Point me to the thread where that was ever accepted as a 2-C feat. Last I checked the Beerus Champa feat was above a baseline Low 2-C. The difference between Low 2-C to 2-C couldn't even be obtained by multipliers.

Now prove that vash's black holes are capable of absorbing energy that strong, otherwise, they will act like normal black holes and won't null Goku's energy which is practically infinitely above vash's.

Read.His.*******.Profile.

Goku's advantage over Vash isn't nigh infinite or even close to infinite, don't be over dramatic. Ark Knive's was quite literally stronger than Vash by an infinite amount and Vash's Black-Hole Bullets were capable of nullifying Knive's attacks, Acausality Type 3, Type 8 immortality and Low Godly.

Goku isn't withstanding Vash's power Nullification and hasn't shown feats negating something like Vash's Black-Hole Bullets.

They don't share the same weaknesses as black holes? So they aren't black holes anymore? Can Goku destroy them? If these count as real black holes then the pretty black hole should count too.

They're High end 4-D - 5-D Black Holes, they don't share the same weakness as they're Infinitely above what a 3-D Black Hole is considered. No, Goku is not nullifying something that has feats of absorbing attacks that are Infinitely above Vash's high end 4-D hax.

Goku should have precognition, intent sensing should count as you are knowing your opponents actions in the future, though I will admit it's a limited precognition but still precogntion.

No it isn't, intent sensing is not the same as knowing the future. There's nothing temporal in the slightest with sending intent. This is a massive misunderstanding you seem to have about Precognition.

Goku has like 3 analytical predictions, 1 precognition and 2 information analysis'

Show them, and no he doesn't have Precognition. Make a CRT to give him precognition or stop arguing on it out of a misunderstanding of intent sensing and temporal view.

, and they are all from previous arcs which Goku far surpasses now and they are insanely heightened by ultra instinct.

Ultra Instinct doesn't increase the potency of his skill, it's a state of mind that allows Goku to react without thinking.

pretty sure that's enough to beat vash. I never claimed he has yahahxh levels of future sight whoever the hell that is.

Think again then. You obviously know who Yhwach from Bleach is.

Why not? That's how instinctive reaction works, and Goku has a very very potent one.

Because those are feats they have, you can't scale shit from other separate series that are non related Dragon Ball. Goku's is potent in his own Universe, you apply what one thing another unrelated character did with theirs to Goku's unless he shows the same feat.

Kiai's are invisible instant

If we're going down this route Non Independent Plants, the weakest of Plants are capable of viewing what is basically Non Existent. Plants can sense the vibrations in objects that have type 9 small size.

Type 9 (Lower-Dimensional) Characters who inhabit lower dimensions, or are smaller than the Planck length. These characters typically can't interact with the physical world as we know it.


Vash and Knives as independent Plants scale Massively above Non Independent Plants.


Also Vash cares Jack all about being invisible considering that he can react to shit many times FTE while being hit with sensory hypnosis and sensory Paralysis, trains with his eyes closed every morning, has the sensory capabilities to sense Type 9 small size objects, and scales above everyone's Analytical Prediction in Trigun. Including characters who can outright skill stomp the shit out of people who have several forms of Analytical Prediction such as The Gun-Ho-Guns and Eye Of Michael members.


Livio in particular has a form himself thats based on mathematics and muscle memory, then you have Livio who's Analytical Prediction works in a similar way to the Spider-sense, and by Muscle Memory. Then you have his second personality, Razlo who has Mental visualization warnings base Analytical Prediction and even when combining the two The Crimson Nail was still skill stomping Livio + Razlo, they have to combine his two personalities perfectly as one to overcome her despite the duo getting skill ****** and Blitzed desire their multiple forms of Analytical Prediction.


Livio isn't even like top 4 most skilled in Trigun.

and sometimes just spawn on top of you, he ain't dodging.

Barrier or Telport, or dodge considering Knive's can bombarded Vash with country sized AoE, and Vash can dodge all of them and reflect them back at Knive's.

Prove he can null Goku's level of 4D AP if he can react to it.

Already did.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

described as the strongest enemy that Universe 7 had ever faced, and thus superior to Infinite Zamasu

technically true, but maybe not nessascarily the strongest GOKU has ever faced, Keep in mind, that Zamasu was not just a one universe threat, He ravaged several universes in that timeline, including the 11th, in which, he likely killed Jiren

 

[AnAverageUsername]

along with Gun-Grave.

Really sorry for barging in, but is this true?

 

[LordGinSama]

Really sorry for barging in, but is this true?

All of Nightow's work takes place in a multiverse yeah.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

So I just read over the Vash profile, and this seems an insanely unfair and onesided match up, I literally don't see any wincons for Goku whatsoever

 

[Myguy]

Instant transmission is kinda bad at dodging, since it's not a unlimited teleport, it needs someone to lock onto, and appears nearby them, so it could end up being very predictable with some analysis


also


Minor spelling mistake, I win

im pretty sure that u only need to lock on someone if u want to teleport to one specific person,I could be wrong tho





****,my only weakness,spelling mistakes

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

****,my only weakness,spelling mistakes

And spaces apparently

im pretty sure that u only need to lock on someone if u want to teleport to one specific person,I could be wrong tho

No, Your wrong on that one, Instant transmission only works if it has a locked on person, That's how it works, otherwise Goku wouldn't have needed everyone to raise their power so he could sense it in RoF for example, in addition to being stated numerous times, This though, seems to be forgotten in the movies

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

though, people seem to mistake snap vanishing for instant transmission

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I don't really care for this MU but I wanted to address a couple of misconceptions:

1st: Goku doesn't have abstract NPI last time I checked.
As you see in the above vid the ki blast doesn't even affect IZ let alone "interact" with him.

2nd: You can have type AE 1 for solely existing as a will, dream, information, etc without it being related to conceptual manipulation (Similar to how you can be incorporeal without being dead/type 7 immortality).

3rd: A friendly reminder you can't just say a character "should" have this power or ability. Unless it's on the profile everything else is just speculation or requires a CRT.

Ok I'm outta here.

 

[Vietthai96]

Doesn't care about this thread but AE type 1 doesn't need CM to interact, you only need a NPI feat of interacting with AE type 1. Have CM just allow you to have better chance against AE1 using concept, IZ AE1 is because he existed purely as a Will. Will, Emotion, Thought is Abstraction

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Then he shouldn't even be a AE Type 1 to begin with.

Whatt? Nevermind it's irrelevant I've already made the point.

No I don't think I will, and it's not acting butt hurt as much as it is being a case of you being shit at attempting to show that your being humorous.

Damn bro chill. If I'm not funny then just don't laugh, don't get angry.

Universe level+ (Traded blows with a heavily suppressed Jiren, and shook the whole World of Void with his Ki alone. While Jiren was holding back, he was repeatedly described as the strongest enemy that Universe 7 had ever faced, and thus superior to Infinite Zamasu

At least Universe level+ (Fought on equal footing with a fully-powered Jiren, and was stated by Vegeta to “step over the state of the Gods”


Literally straight from Goku's profile.


Whis and Zeno are the only 2-C DBS characters. Goku scales above Low 2-C, not below 2-C.

I would love to hear why you think whis is 2-C since you don't even understand the scaling.

That doesn't factor in his causality Manipulation. Trigun is a Multiverse, along with Gun-Grave.

This is the following statement we have from WoG for the extent of Plant's passive abilities and into the origins of it, and is accepted as such.

プラントはプランク的な不確定性を統制しエネルギー、物質、次元の操作など可能だが更には因果律の崩壊や創造が可能で全ての時間軸を含めた多元的宇宙、更に高位の次元にまで及ぶ。プラントの大元と呼べるものが多元的宇宙を遥かに上の高次元そのものであり、全ての始まりそのもの。

Which translates into "The plant can control plank-like uncertainty and manipulate energy, materials, and dimensions, but it can also collapse and create causality, extending to the multiverse including all time axes, and even higher dimensions.. What can be called the origin of the plant is the higher dimension itself far above the multiverse, and the beginning of everything itself."

Like I said not all of their abilities have that range, only their causality hax do. Which is all Vash needs to win here.

How does this 5D causality hax work? Like how is it combat applicable?

Point me to the thread where that was ever accepted as a 2-C feat. Last I checked the Beerus Champa feat was above a baseline Low 2-C. The difference between Low 2-C to 2-C couldn't even be obtained by multipliers.

You didn't check properly then.
"A clash between Gods of Destruction would destroy an entire universe, and Beerus and his brother Champa's battles would result in the simultaneous destruction of both Universes 6 and 7."
This is accepted as a 2-C feat, I don't know which exact thread this was accepted in but this is close enough. https://vsbattles.com/threads/jiren...-plus-range-upgrade-for-dbs-god-tiers.110301/

Read.His.*******.Profile.

Goku's advantage over Vash isn't nigh infinite or even close to infinite, don't be over dramatic. Ark Knive's was quite literally stronger than Vash by an infinite amount and Vash's Black-Hole Bullets were capable of nullifying Knive's attacks, Acausality Type 3, Type 8 immortality and Low Godly.

Goku isn't withstanding Vash's power Nullification and hasn't shown feats negating something like Vash's Black-Hole Bullets.

Goku is stronger than whatever that knife dude scales to due to downscaling from 2-C, now prove vash can absorb energy that strong or else Goku can still just destroy it or push it back or whatever.

They're High end 4-D - 5-D Black Holes, they don't share the same weakness as they're Infinitely above what a 3-D Black Hole is considered. No, Goku is not nullifying something that has feats of absorbing attacks that are Infinitely above Vash's high end 4-D hax.

5D black holes? That's not even on the profile anymore, the whole reason the black hole is 4D is because it destroyed the universe man. Goku scales above that. If that's not true then your character should be complex multiversal.

No it isn't, intent sensing is not the same as knowing the future. There's nothing temporal in the slightest with sending intent. This is a massive misunderstanding you seem to have about Precognition

I explained how it can be precognition. Isn't this how the low tiers of kenbunshoku users in one piece get their precognition?

Show them, and no he doesn't have Precognition. Make a CRT to give him precognition or stop arguing on it out of a misunderstanding of intent sensing and temporal view.

The intent sensing is the precognition. Goku has analytical prediction for predicting roshi's afterimages, his air current sensing analytical prediction and the anticipation analytical prediction he has against hit which all are massively improved now. His information analysis include being able to read all of tao pai pai's moves by letting him attack him. And the second is being able to discern an opponents full power and skill by watching them perform while massively suppressed like he did in the 23rd budokai.

Ultra Instinct doesn't increase the potency of his skill, it's a state of mind that allows Goku to react without thinking.

Which means he can let his body fight for him while he focuses all his brain power on his sensing and strategy stuff.

Because those are feats they have, you can't scale shit from other separate series that are non related Dragon Ball. Goku's is potent in his own Universe, you apply what one thing another unrelated character did with theirs to Goku's unless he shows the same feat

If there's an anti feat fine, but the way UI works would mean that fighting without your senses is literally possible. I don't see why it isn't viable.

If we're going down this route Non Independent Plants, the weakest of Plants are capable of viewing what is basically Non Existent. Plants can sense the vibrations in objects that have type 9 small size.

Type 9 (Lower-Dimensional) Characters who inhabit lower dimensions, or are smaller than the Planck length. These characters typically can't interact with the physical world as we know it.


Vash and Knives as independent Plants scale Massively above Non Independent Plants.


Also Vash cares Jack all about being invisible considering that he can react to shit many times FTE while being hit with sensory hypnosis and sensory Paralysis, trains with his eyes closed every morning, has the sensory capabilities to sense Type 9 small size objects, and scales above everyone's Analytical Prediction in Trigun. Including characters who can outright skill stomp the shit out of people who have several forms of Analytical Prediction such as The Gun-Ho-Guns and Eye Of Michael members.


Livio in particular has a form himself thats based on mathematics and muscle memory, then you have Livio who's Analytical Prediction works in a similar way to the Spider-sense, and by Muscle Memory. Then you have his second personality, Razlo who has Mental visualization warnings base Analytical Prediction and even when combining the two The Crimson Nail was still skill stomping Livio + Razlo, they have to combine his two personalities perfectly as one to overcome her despite the duo getting skill ****** and Blitzed desire their multiple forms of Analytical Prediction.


Livio isn't even like top 4 most skilled in Trigun.

That's quite awesome. That most likely counters a regular kiai, but it cannot counter kiai's that spawn on you so... it could counter some of them but others like vegetas fireworks it cannot. I've also seen no answer to an outright battle field nuke.

Barrier or Telport, or dodge considering Knive's can bombarded Vash with country sized AoE, and Vash can dodge all of them and reflect them back at Knive's.

Barrier and teleporting get slapped by AP and range. Nevermind what I said about battle field nuking, how come he's dodging country sized AoE? How's that even work? Anyway he still isn't reflecting something like a super country sized AoE with Goku's AP ( something nappa could do).

Already did.

Not anymore.

I don't really care for this MU but I wanted to address a couple of misconceptions:

1st: Goku doesn't have abstract NPI last time I checked.
As you see in the above vid the ki blast doesn't even affect IZ let alone "interact" with him.

2nd: You can have type AE 1 for solely existing as a will, dream, information, etc without it being related to conceptual manipulation (Similar to how you can be incorporeal without being dead/type 7 immortality).

3rd: A friendly reminder you can't just say a character "should" have this power or ability. Unless it's on the profile everything else is just speculation or requires a CRT.

Ok I'm outta here.

Nah he does have it, if he didn't interact with zamasu then what the hell did the ki blast collide with?
Good thing you said that.
Good thing it's on the profile already.
Goodbye.

 

[LordGinSama]

Lmao look at that Fluffy making up more shit.

I would love to hear why you think whis is 2-C since you don't even understand the scaling.

For a terrible reason, that being Champa and Beerus almost destroying two Universes, which still wouldn't put you at 2-C going by wiki standards. Again, such as feat would just be above baseline Low 2-C.

Vash fought someone literally Infinitely above Low 2-C, Goku is not one shotting.

How does this 5D causality hax work? Like how is it combat applicable?

Ransom power generation, Regeneration, allowing for matter hax, etc. This is all explained in the Trigun profiles if you'd even bother reading them.

You didn't check properly then.
"A clash between Gods of Destruction would destroy an entire universe, and Beerus and his brother Champa's battles would result in the simultaneous destruction of both Universes 6 and 7."
This is accepted as a 2-C feat, I don't know which exact thread this was accepted in but this is close enough. https://vsbattles.com/threads/jiren...-plus-range-upgrade-for-dbs-god-tiers.110301/

My dude just linked me to thread where 2-C range as literally rejected hard-core.

Goku is stronger than whatever that knife dude scales to due to downscaling from 2-C, now prove vash can absorb energy that strong or else Goku can still just destroy it or push it back or whatever

Goku isn't stronger than a High end 4-D to 5-D being. Now prove to me that Goku can null 5-D abilities, enough of your blatant Dragon Ball wank.

5D black holes? That's not even on the profile anymore, the whole reason the black hole is 4D is because it destroyed the universe man. Goku scales above that. If that's not true then your character should be complex multiversal.

I find it both extremely ironic and hilarious that you say that I don't know anything about Dragon Ball scaling whenever you don't know Jack shit about Trigun scaling or even how dimensional scaling works. First of all, no it's 4-D for having higher D statements so that's wrong. Secondly, 5-D hax isn't the same as being able to bust 2-A structures, your Dimensionality stopped scaling to cosmic level feats a long time ago. Simply being 5-D doesn't mean you suddenly have the strength to blow up the multiverse.

I explained how it can be precognition. Isn't this how the low tiers of kenbunshoku users in one piece get their precognition?

For the last damn time no. Literally me and KingTempest both told you this how many times? Low Tier Kenbunshoku haki users get precognition via mind reading, intent reading is apart of their Enhanced Senses / Extrasensory Perception. You explained wrong.

The intent sensing is the precognition.

Intent sensing is not precognition. Sensing intent is literally enhanced senses. Goku has precognition via mathematics, predicting Hit's moves by calculations.

Goku has analytical prediction for predicting roshi's afterimages, his air current sensing analytical prediction and the anticipation analytical prediction he has against hit which all are massively improved now.

First is something literally anyone with Analytical Prediction can do, and again the second is enhanced senses. Not Analytical Prediction, Goku is just feeling vibrations in the air with his sharp senses, he isn't predicting the opponent's next move since he's sensing them to begin with. His hit feat is literally mathematic based.

Vash scales above those who have scaling above people who can do the same shit with their Predictions. Low tier Eye of Michael members have 3 forms of Analytical Prediction (Intent sensing, Mental warning, and muscle movement.), high tiers can skill stomp Livio's Analytical Prediction, and Vash scales stupidly above that.

His information analysis include being able to read all of tao pai pai's moves by letting him attack him. And the second is being able to discern an opponents full power and skill by watching them perform while massively suppressed like he did in the 23rd budokai.

These are basic ass applications of Information Analysis so that's quite frankly unimpressive.

Which means he can let his body fight for him while he focuses all his brain power on his sensing and strategy stuff.

Which again, doesn't increase his skill. That just reduces the amount of action he needs to take, which doesn't matter since his opponent can do the same exact shit.

If there's an anti feat fine, but the way UI works would mean that fighting without your senses is literally possible. I don't see why it isn't viable.

Because he doesn't have the feats to back up such a statement. Has Goku ever used U.I to fight with all his senses gone? No? Okay cool, end of discussion.

That's quite awesome. That most likely counters a regular kiai, but it cannot counter kiai's that spawn on you so... it could counter some of them but others like vegetas fireworks it cannot. I've also seen no answer to an outright battle field nuke

Vash can teleport as well, with more accurate precision and way less focus. Also Vegata's Dirty Fire-Works isn't something that Goku has shown so that's irrelevant.


Analytical Prediction, and Teleportation. Vash has already dodged attacks point blank that can nuke entire countries, the much less skilled Knives's was able to dodge an attack that engulfed the entire planet.

Barrier and teleporting get slapped by AP and range

Nope, and Vash's Teleportation has better range than Goku's. Goku playing the range game is a bad idea given that Vash has the better range out of the two, At Least Universe vs Universe+ level.

Nevermind what I said about battle field nuking, how come he's dodging country sized AoE? How's that even work? Anyway he still isn't reflecting something like a super country sized AoE with Goku's AP ( something nappa could do).

Skill, literally skill. Vash is the best dodged in Trigun, along with the most potent Analytical Prediction in his verse. Also no, Nappa doesn't have Country level AoE. His AoE is city level, not country level not sure where you got that from. And I've already cucked your AP argument so try again.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Goku via energy projection and range

 

[LordGinSama]

Goku via energy projection and range

Vash literally has better range than Goku, and also has energy protection. Please give a more valid reason for your vote.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I meant to say kamehameha's massive stat amp and damage boost

 

[LordGinSama]

I meant to say kamehameha's massive stat amp and damage boost

Not really sure how that's gonna counter Vash's arsenal but I'll count it.