Pikkon Downgrade

[JohnCenaNation]

According to Pikkon's profile, he has Multi-Solar System level attack potency for (Effortlessly knocked out non-canon Cell with one hit while heavily restricting his power, put up a miserable fight against Janemba), and Massively FTL+ speed for (Traversed the afterlife at 4.38 quadrillion times FTL while suppressed, and effortlessly blitzed Toeiverse Super Perfect Cell, who is superior to Movie 8 Broly). This is wrong for many reasons:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hRkc5c-A_TU

1. That wasn't Super Perfect Cell that Base Goku and Restricted Pikkon fought against, that was regular Perfect Cell. Super Perfect Cell has the spark and static like Super Saiyan 2 when he powers up, Perfect Cell doesn't when he powers up.

2. Pikkon didn't fight against Cell, all he did was caught him off guard with a surprise kick and a backhand knocking him out. By this logic, Sorbet is universe level for being able to one-shot an off guard Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

3. Looking at the reaction from Goku's face when Cell decided to fight him, Goku wasn't confident that he could beat Cell in a fight which is why he tried to back away at the last moment before Pikkon ambushed Cell. Later on not so long after this fight, Base Goku was show fighting evenly against Restricted Pikkon in a fight.

So yeah, please downgrade Pikkon.

 

[Akreious]

"1. That wasn't Super Perfect Cell that Base Goku and Restricted Pikkon fought against, that was regular Perfect Cell. Super Perfect Cell has the spark and static like Super Saiyan 2 when he powers up, Perfect Cell doesn't when he powers up."

SS2/SPC in future appearances have their electricity on and off even though the characters explicitly state that they're in such forms (This is more Gohan) so this isn't really indicative of him being "regular" Perfect Cell. Beyond that, why would he have downgraded a form? What reason would he have to have lost Super Perfect when that state is just a result of Zenkai + Perfect?

By this logic, everybody was using Kamehamehas in the Christmas Special with Hachiyak since literally everyone's beams were blue in that.

"2. Pikkon didn't fight against Cell, all he did was caught him off guard with a surprise kick and a backhand knocking him out. By this logic, Sorbet is universe level for being able to one-shot an off guard Super Saiyan Blue Goku."

Pikkon moved fast enough that Goku was surprised and all Cell could do is make a "Gasp!" face before Pikkon tore off an arm. Cell clearly had intended to fight Goku and was charging right at him, why would he have his guard down? He knows Goku is a tricky MOFO with his Instant Transmission and whatnot.

No, not by that logic. These two scenarios are completely different from eachother. One scenario is charging at someone so fast that they could only gasp in surprise despite them already prepared to enter battle. The other is after the battle is already finished where the opponent is already down and out before a complete 3rd party comes out of nowhere.

I'm heading into a fight in one scenario, ready to take hits and dish out hits. The other one has my opponent literally on the ground who I could kill with a pinkie if I so wished.

"3. Looking at the reaction from Goku's face when Cell decided to fight him, Goku wasn't confident that he could beat Cell in a fight which is why he tried to back away at the last moment before Pikkon ambushed Cell. Later on not so long after this fight, Base Goku was show fighting evenly against Restricted Pikkon in a fight."

I am almost 100% sure this is conjecture on your end. Just because Goku makes a "Grrr" face doesn't mean he isn't confident he could beat Cell; all it means is that he's getting ready to fight. Which he is. And he knows first-hand that Cell is a dangerous opponent who could've grown who knows how much stronger since their last encounter. Also he backed up? That was the camera panning so that we can get a better angle to see Pikkon flying in. All Goku did was get into a stance, prepared to fight Cell.

I seem to remember Pikkon keeping up with Super Saiyan Goku and forcing Goku to use Super Kaioken in order to get any real advantage. Plus in Dragon Ball, restricted anything could mean 1% or 80% so again, "restricted" means jack all here.

So yeah I completely disagree with literally everything.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

"1. SS2/SPC in future appearances have their electricity on and off even though the characters explicitly state that they're in such forms (This is more Gohan) so this isn't really indicative of him being "regular" Perfect Cell. Beyond that, why would he have downgraded a form? What reason would he have to have lost Super Perfect when that state is just a result of Zenkai + Perfect?
By this logic, everybody was using Kamehamehas in the Christmas Special with Hachiyak since literally everyone's beams were blue in that.

"2. Pikkon moved fast enough that Goku was surprised and all Cell could do is make a "Gasp!" face before Pikkon tore off an arm. Cell clearly had intended to fight Goku and was charging right at him, why would he have his guard down? He knows Goku is a tricky MOFO with his Instant Transmission and whatnot.

No, not by that logic. These two scenarios are completely different from eachother. One scenario is charging at someone so fast that they could only gasp in surprise despite them already prepared to enter battle. The other is after the battle is already finished where the opponent is already down and out before a complete 3rd party comes out of nowhere.

I'm heading into a fight in one scenario, ready to take hits and dish out hits. The other one has my opponent literally on the ground who I could kill with a pinkie if I so wished.

"3. I am almost 100% sure this is conjecture on your end. Just because Goku makes a "Grrr" face doesn't mean he isn't confident he could beat Cell; all it means is that he's getting ready to fight. Which he is. And he knows first-hand that Cell is a dangerous opponent who could've grown who knows how much stronger since their last encounter. Also he backed up? That was the camera panning so that we can get a better angle to see Pikkon flying in. All Goku did was get into a stance, prepared to fight Cell.

I seem to remember Pikkon keeping up with Super Saiyan Goku and forcing Goku to use Super Kaioken in order to get any real advantage. Plus in Dragon Ball, restricted anything could mean 1% or 80% so again, "restricted" means jack all here.

So yeah I completely disagree with literally everything.

1. Proof that was Super Perfect Cell? Because ever since Cell fight against Gohan, we never saw Super Perfect Cell ever again, it was just Perfect Cell, even the Daizenshuu confirmed this. The only time we saw Super Perfect Cell is Dragon Ball GT.

2. Nice try, but Cell wasn't focused on fighting Pikkon, his full intention was fighting against Goku as stated by Cell himself so he completely ignored Pikkon. Also Goku admitted that he was much weaker than Cell during the Cell Games Tournament.

3. Restricted Pikkon is simply Pikkon wearing weights, but whatever. The fact that Pikkon and Goku needs to team up to beat Broly in Hell during the Bio-Broly film debunks your nonsense. Cell > Broly.

 

[ProudLearner]

Please use original Japanese with English subs because there is so much miss-translation, okay?

Okay, yeah, no..

SPC was simply off guarded by Pikkon speed and power. Here is Pikkon and then Here he speedblitz and destroy SPC. Even Goku say " w-what speed!" Pikkon did not go all out. He did it casually with no effort.

Its filler. Even Goku used a weird SSJ aura. Toei simply did not give SPC an aura.

Saying "Goku wasn't confident that he could beat Cell in a fight" is simply your headcanon. Goku did not use FPSSJ or with KK. Goku is stronger than SPC becasue of traning, zenkai, and FPSSJ or with KK.

Comparing Toei-verse with Super makes no sense.

Piklon is stronger than Post-Cell Saga FPSSJ Goku untill he went Super KK. Here

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Please use original Japanese with English subs because there is so much miss-translation, okay?
Okay, yeah, no..

1. Are you telling me to be a weeaboo?

SPC was simply off guarded by Pikkon speed and power. Here is Pikkon and then Here he speedblitz and destroy SPC. Even Goku say " w-what speed!" Pikkon did not go all out. He did it casually with no effort.

2. And Perfect Cell on the other hand was heavily suppressing himself to match base Goku's power level whose focus was only to kill Goku and not fight Pikkon.

Its filler. Even Goku used a weird SSJ aura. Toei simply did not give SPC an aura.

Saying "Goku wasn't confident that he could beat Cell in a fight" is simply your headcanon. Goku did not use FPSSJ or with KK. Goku is stronger than SPC becasue of traning, zenkai, and FPSSJ or with KK.

3. Except FPSSJ Goku outright admitted that he could not beat Perfect Cell in a fight, let alone Super Perfect Cell, and the event of the anime took place on the same year as Cell Games Saga. Please learn what's a headcannon before you use that term. That was no SSJ aura, that was simply base Goku powering up aura.

Comparing Toei-verse with Super makes no sense.

Piklon is stronger than Post-Cell Saga FPSSJ Goku untill he went Super KK. Here

4. FPSSJ Goku only used Kaio-ken once, but throughout the entire battle battle Goku was fighting against Pikkon with FPSSJ.

 

[Akreious]

"1. Proof that was Super Perfect Cell? Because ever since Cell fight against Gohan, we never saw Super Perfect Cell ever again, it was just Perfect Cell, even the Daizenshuu confirmed this. The only time we saw Super Perfect Cell is Dragon Ball GT."

Daizenshuu shouldn't be used as complete gospel as it has some errors, especially when it comes to translations.

What do you mean we never saw Super Perfect Cell again? Remember my whole paragraph on Toei not drawing in auras properly after they debut? Because Super Saiyan 3 had electricity as well and they were lacking for the longest time in movies and such despite it originally having it.

"2. Nice try, but Cell wasn't focused on fighting Pikkon, his full intention was fighting against Goku as stated by Cell himself so he completely ignored Pikkon. Also Goku admitted that he was much weaker than Cell during the Cell Games Tournament"

When you try to address points, how about you not start with "Nice try" as if you already won?

Point was, Goku was completely powered down against Freeza which is why the normal ray gun did so much damage. In Super he was down in base form. Meanwhile, Cell was charging full-on fully prepared for confrontation so it'd make literally no sense if he was not using his Ki to amp himself in case Goku uses his o-so-famous Instant transmission to smack him unexpectedly.

And Cell didn't "ignore" Pikkon. Did you even watch the video? Pikkon was completely out of sight and moved so fast that Cell couldn't properly react before getting his arm torn off. This is no different from Freeza pummeling Goku on Namek or Goku drop-kicking Freeza into the side of a hill. His guard was up but the opponent simply had more than enough power to just body him.

... And? Goku was indeed weaker than Cell during the Cell Games, but Goku in the very video you linked had an entire training montage prior to their encounter with Cell in Hell (heh). So your point that he said he was weaker doesn't apply to Goku in your video.

"3. Restricted Pikkon is simply Pikkon wearing weights, but whatever. The fact that Pikkon and Goku needs to team up to beat Broly in Hell during the Bio-Broly film debunks your nonsense. Cell > Broly. "

You do know weights in Dragon Ball decreases your power by a crap ton right? Although we're not exactly sure of the specifics of the material in question, it is noted that against Raditz, Goku and Piccolo's power level rose sharply when they took off their weighted clothing. So yes, Restricted Pikkon simply wearing weights is enough to prove my point.

Broly in his debut film had power that boundlessly risen until his body couldn't take it anymore, which is why he had to dispel a bunch with a big danmaku-esque blast that sent orbs of green energy across the planet.

Meanwhile in the afterlife, there's no physical body to limit your power output so Broly is able to freely rise in power. Theoretically if he were allowed to just sit there for millennia, he'd eventually outstrip DBS High-Tiers like Jiren. This same concept is used for Goku, when he's able to use Super Kaioken while his body when he was alive was unable to handle the strain or when Goku learned Super Saiyan 3; something he only achieved in the afterlife.

So Pikkon needed Goku's help to defeat a Broly that's risen in power without limit from his death and into the present however long a timespan that is. If he powered up so much in his debut film which has him "Legendary Super Saiyan"d for what amounts to at most tens of minutes, how much power do you think Broly would build up if he had no body to restrain him?

As for your reply to ProudLearner...

"1. Are you telling me to be a weeaboo?"

This is incredibly insulting. Not only is the original, untranslated Original Japanese text/script literally always more accurate, but you're literally saying that using the source material (the more accurate material) is something a weeb does. Get out of here.

"2. And Perfect Cell on the other hand was heavily suppressing himself to match base Goku's power level whose focus was only to kill Goku and not fight Pikkon."

This is again, your headcanon. We do not know of Cell's status when he charged Goku and whether or not he was going for the kill on Goku. And if he was going for the kill, why would he suppress himself to Base Goku's level?

"3. Except FPSSJ Goku outright admitted that he could not beat Perfect Cell in a fight, let alone Super Perfect Cell, and the event of the anime took place on the same year as Cell Games Saga. Please learn what's a headcannon before you use that term. That was no SSJ aura, that was simply base Goku powering up aura."

Time doesn't flow linearly between the Mortal Realm and Afterlife. So that's the first problem with your "Same timeframe" argument. Second, we've had characters rise extremely fast in shorter timeframes (Sometimes in the span of weeks). And Goku without a physical body to limit him is free to carry on training for as long as he wants in the afterlife without the need for sleep since... he's dead. Goku doing basic workouts with increased gravity on the trip to Namek was able to skyrocket his power level, and now he can do the same but without physical limits.

"4. FPSSJ Goku only used Kaio-ken once, but throughout the entire battle battle Goku was fighting against Pikkon with FPSSJ. "

Which means absolutely nothing. We do not know how much Goku grew in power within the timeframe he was training nor do we know how much Cell and Freeza got since their deaths.

All we know is that Goku in his base form was for some reason preparing to fight Cell. This either means Cell was holding back (Which makes no sense if he was going for the kill as you say), or Goku trained enough that his base form matches with Cell.

 

[ProudLearner]

JohnCenaNatio

Dude really...

"Are you telling me to be a weeaboo?" < why would you reply something like that? *FacePalm*

You have to use the original script and not the Funimation dub of the 2000's because there is alot of misstranslation. That's all. You keep using alot of headcanon here.

The scaling is simple yet you are overthinking it.

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Akreious wrote:
Daizenshuu shouldn't be used as complete gospel as it has some errors, especially when it comes to translations.

What do you mean we never saw Super Perfect Cell again? Remember my whole paragraph on Toei not drawing in auras properly after they debut? Because Super Saiyan 3 had electricity as well and they were lacking for the longest time in movies and such despite it originally having it.

1. Still far better than a fan calculation. For example, how did you even get Multi-Galaxy level SSJ3 goku just from Goku just using Dragon Fist? Why is GT Base Goku weaker than SSJ Gogeta? Why is Kid Buu is only Solar System, even though he pushed a Spirit Bomb that powered by the entire universe as stated by King Yenma in the manga? We even have multiple statements from characters the manga that Majin Buy was going to destroy the universe through an overture damage, easily making him Multi-Galaxy level. The Databook and the Daizenshuu even further supports this feat, but no lets make Majin Buu the same level as Super Perfect Cell, because they had the same power level.

When you try to address points, how about you not start with "Nice try" as if you already won?

Point was, Goku was completely powered down against Freeza which is why the normal ray gun did so much damage. In Super he was down in base form. Meanwhile, Cell was charging full-on fully prepared for confrontation so it'd make literally no sense if he was not using his Ki to amp himself in case Goku uses his o-so-famous Instant transmission to smack him unexpectedly.

And Cell didn't "ignore" Pikkon. Did you even watch the video? Pikkon was completely out of sight and moved so fast that Cell couldn't properly react before getting his arm torn off. This is no different from Freeza pummeling Goku on Namek or Goku drop-kicking Freeza into the side of a hill. His guard was up but the opponent simply had more than enough power to just body him.

... And? Goku was indeed weaker than Cell during the Cell Games, but Goku in the very video you linked had an entire training montage prior to their encounter with Cell in Hell (heh). So your point that he said he was weaker doesn't apply to Goku in your video.

2. How do you know that Pikkon was completely out of Cell's sight? Once again headcannon. Cell was charging towards Goku and didn't bother giving a damn about fighting Pikkon. How do we know that Cell was suppressed during his fight against Goku? No golden aura. Perfect Cell during his fight against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan when he used his full power, had displayed the golden aura. Because the highest and lowest end of Solar System output is roughly a billion unit, so it's very inconsistent for base Goku to even be Multi-Solar System level by just simply training and getting zenkai boost in just one year, even you have freaking Super Saiyan Vegito who is only Solar System level in the manga.

You do know weights in Dragon Ball decreases your power by a crap ton right? Although we're not exactly sure of the specifics of the material in question, it is noted that against Raditz, Goku and Piccolo's power level rose sharply when they took off their weighted clothing. So yes, Restricted Pikkon simply wearing weights is enough to prove my point.

Broly in his debut film had power that boundlessly risen until his body couldn't take it anymore, which is why he had to dispel a bunch with a big danmaku-esque blast that sent orbs of green energy across the planet.

Meanwhile in the afterlife, there's no physical body to limit your power output so Broly is able to freely rise in power. Theoretically if he were allowed to just sit there for millennia, he'd eventually outstrip DBS High-Tiers like Jiren. This same concept is used for Goku, when he's able to use Super Kaioken while his body when he was alive was unable to handle the strain or when Goku learned Super Saiyan 3; something he only achieved in the afterlife.

So Pikkon needed Goku's help to defeat a Broly that's risen in power without limit from his death and into the present however long a timespan that is. If he powered up so much in his debut film which has him "Legendary Super Saiyan"d for what amounts to at most tens of minutes, how much power do you think Broly would build up if he had no body to restrain him?

3. Because Broly lost to Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan in a fight, and Cell on the other hand was going to kill Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan in a fight, until Vegeta interfered? Cell even admitted during the Kamehameha bean struggle that he wasn't going all out. Cell therefore is stronger than Broly, oh and base Goku couldn't even though jackshit against Dabura even after 7 years timeskip, the same Dabura who is equal to Perfect Cell. Dabura even admitted that Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan won't be enough to beat him in a fight.

As for your reply to ProudLearner...

This is incredibly insulting. Not only is the original, untranslated Original Japanese text/script literally always more accurate, but you're literally saying that using the source material (the more accurate material) is something a weeb does. Get out of here.

4. So Kid Buu is the the most powerful Majin Buu, Cell is a universe buster, Vegeta calling Bulma a dog, Beerus being racist, and Potara Fusion is AxB etc, sure. Go to YouTube and type down Bad Dragon Ball Z English Subs by FrozenParticles, and he will explain wrong with the sub.

Again this is again, your headcanon. We do not know of Cell's status when he charged Goku and whether or not he was going for the kill on Goku. And if he was going for the kill, why would he suppress himself to Base Goku's level?

5. Give me a good reason why Perfect Cell needs to use his full power to kill Goku? Frieza didn't use his full power either. First Form Frieza killed King Vegeta without using his full power with a single punch to the jaw.

Time doesn't flow linearly between the Mortal Realm and Afterlife. So that's the first problem with your "Same timeframe" argument. Second, we've had characters rise extremely fast in shorter timeframes (Sometimes in the span of weeks). And Goku without a physical body to limit him is free to carry on training for as long as he wants in the afterlife without the need for sleep since... he's dead. Goku doing basic workouts with increased gravity on the trip to Namek was able to skyrocket his power level, and now he can do the same but without physical limits.

6. That's a headcannon as well. We don't know what Goku did during the 7 years timeskip, therefore we are not to assume that he did was was train and get Zenkai boost, Gohan is an example why. By the logic, everyone Vegeta can go Super Saiyan 3 all because he has access to higher transformations, unless he has shown the evidences he could, we are not to assume that he could.

Which means absolutely nothing. We do not know how much Goku grew in power within the timeframe he was training nor do we know how much Cell and Freeza got since their deaths.

All we know is that Goku in his base form was for some reason preparing to fight Cell. This either means Cell was holding back (Which makes no sense if he was going for the kill as you say), or Goku trained enough that his base form matches with Cell.

7. Again, you haven't explain to me yet why would a Dragon Ball character who is ridiculously much powerful than a fodder would need to use their full power to kill a fodder? Did Raditz use his full power to kill a farmer with a shotgun? Did Frieza used his full power to kill King Vegeta? What about one of Babidi's men when he was executing someone?

 

[JohnCenaNation]

JohnCenaNatioDude really...
"Are you telling me to be a weeaboo?" < why would you reply something like that? *FacePalm*

You have to use the original script and not the Funimation dub of the 2000's because there is alot of misstranslation. That's all. You keep using alot of headcanon here.

The scaling is simple yet you are overthinking it.

Cell is a universe buster! Kid Buu is the most powerful Majin Buu! Vegeta calling his wife a female dog! Potara Fusion is a multiplier! Beerus being racist towards black people. I rather stick to Funimation Dub instead. They can't even spell the character's names right! I apologize for using the word weeaboo, that was an error, I shouldn't have used it.