- 4,459
- 5,550
The previous thread went pretty well, all things considered. Under the current accepted justifications, characters who scale to Philemon in Persona would be considered "At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C". Of course, for a character as complicated and distant as Philemon, there is a lot of vagueness as to who would actually scale to him. That is what this thread has been created to debate.
In the sections below, I'll list any decent reasons as to why characters should scale to Philemon. Note that I genuinely do not agree with all of this, I just think that it's all at least valid enough to mention. A point I disagree with isn't necessarily invalid; after all. Let's begin.
Nyarlathotep: Pretty standard and obvious. Nyar is comparable to Philemon, as shown by the games. Simple enough.
The P2 Cast: Harmed Philemon to an extent. I don't know the full context, though they apparently left a bruise on his cheek, so that's something. Obviously a very small injury, but an injury none the less.
Nyx: Nyx is shown, at the very least, to be notably superior to the entirety of the Collective Unconscious. Philemon, at his best, is considered an incarnation of one half of the Collective Unconscious, so Nyx should be vastly superior to Philemon.
The Universe Arcana: This point is debatable. Makoto Yuki, wielding the Universe Arcana, got completely stomped by Nyx. However, unlike some stomps, where we can't assume comparability (like with Dante killing fodders in DMC), the actual degree of difference between Makoto and Nyx seems to be quantifiable to an extent. If it's even quantifiable at all, then at a 2-C level, it would almost certainly mean they are in the same tier (even if on a far lower level).
Joker with Satanael: This is where things might get a bit dubious. There has been a running belief that Yaldabaoth, in his take-over of the Velvet Room, would have had to have beaten Philemon. This is not entirely baseless, frankly. It stands as reasonable that Philemon would know if the Velvet Room was attacked, and that he wouldn't simply stand by and watch. There's also the point that the blue butterfly (which usually represents Philemon) appears at several points throughout the game and seemingly has similar abilities (such as granting Personas). This might indicate that Philemon was either defeated, or he knows that he couldn't take on Yaldabaoth by himself. This is obviously highly speculatory, but worth discussing.
Narukami with the World Arcana: This is another highly dubious point. Physically speaking, both Izanagi-no-Okami and Satanael come from the same power; the power of the World Arcana. Given that they are both as powerful as they are due to this power, it stands to reason that they should be comparable. If Joker with Satanael scaling here is valid, then there's an argument to be made for Narukami with Izanagi-no-Okami as well. Still dubious, but again; worth mentioning.
So, the big question is, who scales?
In the sections below, I'll list any decent reasons as to why characters should scale to Philemon. Note that I genuinely do not agree with all of this, I just think that it's all at least valid enough to mention. A point I disagree with isn't necessarily invalid; after all. Let's begin.
Nyarlathotep: Pretty standard and obvious. Nyar is comparable to Philemon, as shown by the games. Simple enough.
The P2 Cast: Harmed Philemon to an extent. I don't know the full context, though they apparently left a bruise on his cheek, so that's something. Obviously a very small injury, but an injury none the less.
Nyx: Nyx is shown, at the very least, to be notably superior to the entirety of the Collective Unconscious. Philemon, at his best, is considered an incarnation of one half of the Collective Unconscious, so Nyx should be vastly superior to Philemon.
The Universe Arcana: This point is debatable. Makoto Yuki, wielding the Universe Arcana, got completely stomped by Nyx. However, unlike some stomps, where we can't assume comparability (like with Dante killing fodders in DMC), the actual degree of difference between Makoto and Nyx seems to be quantifiable to an extent. If it's even quantifiable at all, then at a 2-C level, it would almost certainly mean they are in the same tier (even if on a far lower level).
Joker with Satanael: This is where things might get a bit dubious. There has been a running belief that Yaldabaoth, in his take-over of the Velvet Room, would have had to have beaten Philemon. This is not entirely baseless, frankly. It stands as reasonable that Philemon would know if the Velvet Room was attacked, and that he wouldn't simply stand by and watch. There's also the point that the blue butterfly (which usually represents Philemon) appears at several points throughout the game and seemingly has similar abilities (such as granting Personas). This might indicate that Philemon was either defeated, or he knows that he couldn't take on Yaldabaoth by himself. This is obviously highly speculatory, but worth discussing.
Narukami with the World Arcana: This is another highly dubious point. Physically speaking, both Izanagi-no-Okami and Satanael come from the same power; the power of the World Arcana. Given that they are both as powerful as they are due to this power, it stands to reason that they should be comparable. If Joker with Satanael scaling here is valid, then there's an argument to be made for Narukami with Izanagi-no-Okami as well. Still dubious, but again; worth mentioning.
So, the big question is, who scales?
