persona/smt questions

[Pizzabox492]

(I'm still allowed to post about Persona on Fun and Games and ask questions)

1. Do spells actually spawn on target? and if so what's the range of it?

2. Sleep/Mudoon/etc is by chance because everyone resists it where does this come from?

3. Where would Joker scale without SMT scaling?

4. This is weird because some people say Yaldy just effected Japan but others say he effected multiple universes, same with Maruki. How much did they actually effect?

5. People say all magic attacks attack the body/soul/mind/info/concept where does this come from and what does it mean by info and concept?

6. Where does Joker's immeasurable speed come from?

7. Are nuke attacks radiation?

8. Is Yaldy actually a god or just a really strong shadow?

might add more questions

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Do spells actually spawn on target?

Yes.

and if so what's the range of it?

Depends on the character in question and the specific key you're using. Check the range section of the profiles.

Sleep/Mudoon/etc is by chance because everyone resists it where does this come from?

I don't know if that's the reason why characters resist ailments or insta-kill spells, though characters are capable of recovering from the effects of ailments on their own within a relatively short period of time. Demons/Personas/etc can also specifically resist Light, Dark, and Ailment skills as well.

Where would Joker scale without SMT scaling?

2-A to Low 1-C, I believe.

Yaldy just effected Japan but others say he effected multiple universes, same with Maruki. How much did they actually effect?

Yaldabaoth clearly merged all of reality with the Collective Unconsciousness. Maruki took over Yaldabaoth's position as Administrator, so he'd be able to do the same (and arguably more with his Actualization ability).

People say all magic attacks attack the body/soul/mind/info/concept where does this come from

Magic is capable of harming and killing Demons, who are fundamentally composed of a substance known as "Information", which is synonymous to the human Mind/Soul (the two are conflated in MegaTen). Demons themselves are Type 1 Concepts. Check the cosmology blog and Cognitive Physiology page for more information.

what does it mean by info and concept?

The underlying Information and Concepts that comprise reality itself.

Where does Joker's immeasurable speed come from?

It's on his profile.

Are nuke attacks radiation?

Nuclear bombs produce radiation.

 

[Pizzabox492]

Depends on the character in question and the specific key you're using. Check the range section of the profiles.

"Up to Low Complex Multiversal with spells" "Same as before. Up to Outerversal with spells." where does this come from

Magic is capable of harming and killing Demons, who are fundamentally composed of a substance known as "Information", which is synonymous to the human Mind/Soul (the two are conflated in MegaTen). Demons themselves are Type 1 Concepts. Check the cosmology blog and Cognitive Physiology page for more information.

Aren't shadows different? And how do you know magic attacks attack effect humans the same way?

Nuclear bombs produce radiation.

I meant nuke skills

 

[Lukewoesal007]

"Up to Low Complex Multiversal with spells" "Same as before. Up to Outerversal with spells." where does this come from

The ability to harm higher-dimensional entities who scale to those levels.

Aren't shadows different?

No.

how do you know magic attacks attack effect humans the same way?

It's the same magic being used by both Demons and humans alike.

I meant nuke skills

It is radiation, yes.

 

[Potemkat]

Aren't shadows different?

In Persona 1 and 2, shadows don't exist. Personas are just demons who are summoned;

In Persona 3, 4, 5 Personas are controlled shadows, and shadows come from Nyx and are in everyone.

Persona 3 is a sort of reboot of Persona, with demons and SMT things not existing and Nyx + shadows being the reason for everything.

 

[Pizzabox492]

2-A to Low 1-C, I believe.

why does he scale that high because everyone on reddit says he would be like wall level without SMT scaling or something like that

 

[Lukewoesal007]

In Persona 1 and 2, shadows don't exist.

This is blatantly untrue.

Persona 3 is a sort of reboot of Persona, with demons and SMT things not existing and Nyx + shadows being the reason for everything.

Neosona is still connected to the rest of the franchise, however.

 

[Potemkat]

This is blatantly untrue.

If you mean the shadow selves created in Persona 2, they are very different from the shadows used in 3/4/5 (they have personas and people can have personas without accepting them first)

Neosona is still connected to the rest of the franchise, however.

There's references, but it's largely been rebooted/ignored. You don't see Persona 1/2 in any "all persona crossovers" like Q or even the DLC fights in Persona 5.

I remember owning a Persona book which explained how everything would be now different and then had world explanations for Persona 3.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

If you mean the shadow selves created in Persona 2, they are very different from the shadows used in 3/4/5 (they have personas and people can have personas without accepting them first)

They're still a type of Shadow. Them being unique in comparison to later depictions doesn't change that. The Shadow Selves are also stated to have been created through contradictory rumors in Innocent Sin, and by Nyarlathotep himself in Eternal Punishment.

There's references, but it's largely been rebooted/ignored. You don't see Persona 1/2 in any "all persona crossovers" like Q or even the DLC fights in Persona 5.

In terms of story, sure. It's still canonically part of the rest of the franchise though. The Kirijo group is directly state within the main story to be an offshoot of the Nanjo Group, for instance.

I remember owning a Persona book which explained how everything would be now different and then had world explanations for Persona 3.

Source?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

why does he scale that high because everyone on reddit says he would be like wall level without SMT scaling or something like that

lmao

 

[Pizzabox492]

lmao

why lmao

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

wall level joker is comical, iirc hes bare minimum countless multiversal from beating a guy who had total control over the metaverse which contains countless realities

 

[Pizzabox492]

wall level joker is comical, iirc hes bare minimum countless multiversal from beating a guy who had total control over the metaverse which contains countless realities

are u talking about yaldy or maruki? or both? and how do you know the metaverse contains countless realities but dumb reddit says its just japan bruh

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

are u talking about yaldy or maruki? or both? and how do you know the metaverse contains countless realities but dumb reddit says its just japan bruh

yaldabaoth, saw a screenshot of someone directly saying it contains countless mental worlds

 

[Pizzabox492]

yaldabaoth, saw a screenshot of someone directly saying it contains countless mental worlds

do u have the screenshot

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

not on hand no, i might be able to find it, does anyone else here have it

 

[Lukewoesal007]

are u talking about yaldy or maruki? or both? and how do you know the metaverse contains countless realities but dumb reddit says its just japan bruh

And why are you inclined to believe them? If they have no evidence of their own, why believe them?

do u have the screenshot

Here.

 

[Pizzabox492]

And why are you inclined to believe them? If they have no evidence of their own, why believe them?



Here.

thanks

 

[Potemkat]

They're still a type of Shadow. Them being unique in comparison to later depictions doesn't change that. The Shadow Selves are also stated to have been created through contradictory rumors in Innocent Sin, and by Nyarlathotep himself in Eternal Punishment.

All shadows come from Nyx since the beginning of humanity according to Persona 3/4/5.
In Persona 4 Arena they recognize that the big bad's copies aren't shadows because they have personas and the others can use it.

In terms of story, sure. It's still canonically part of the rest of the franchise though. The Kirijo group is directly state within the main story to be an offshoot of the Nanjo Group, for instance.

That's what I meant by references

Source?

it's a fanbook with Persona 3 characters on the cover. It talks about the first 3 games and then talk about the world.
I don't know if it has a special name.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

In Persona 4 Arena they recognize that the big bad's copies aren't shadows because they have personas and the others can use it.

You have to be genuinely delusional if you believe the characters explicitly called "Shadows" and stated be clones made from Shadows aren't Shadows.

it's a fanbook with Persona 3 characters on the cover. It talks about the first 3 games and then talk about the world.

If you're referring to the Persona 3 Club Book, that doesn't contradict the original trilogy.

 

[Potemkat]

You have to be genuinely delusional if you believe the characters explicitly called "Shadows" and stated be clones made from Shadows aren't Shadows.

It's an important point repeated by both the good and bad guys.

They understood they weren't their shadows because they had personas and constantly narrate that it's impossible to have a shadow and Persona.
Even their discussion you put have Teddy and Yosuke not understanding because it shouldn't be possible (and we learned Sho uses persona shards).
The only true shadow self in all Persona 4 Arenas game is Shadow Labrys.

Also it's not nice to insult someone because of a video game... I just say what was explained in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax everytime there's a fake shadow of someone. Why being rude to me when it's not my game?

If you're referring to the Persona 3 Club Book, that doesn't contradict the original trilogy.

Yes. It says things are now different and have the velvet room people explain things like the nature of personas now.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

They understood they weren't their shadows because they had personas and constantly narrate that it's impossible to have a shadow and Persona.
Even their discussion you put have Teddy and Yosuke not understanding because it shouldn't be possible (and we learned Sho uses persona shards).
The only true shadow self in all Persona 4 Arenas game is Shadow Labrys.

Sure, I agree they're not the characters' actual Shadows. They are, however, still Shadows–they've just been modified/augmented by Hino-Kagutsuchi. The bottom like is that they're still Shadows regardless.

. It says things are now different and have the velvet room people explain things like the nature of personas now.

Not sure what you mean here.

 

[Potemkat]

Sure, I agree they're not the characters' actual Shadows. They are, however, still Shadows–they've just been modified/augmented by Hino-Kagutsuchi. The bottom like is that they're still Shadows regardless.

It's very different from someone's shadow (the one you have to accept) having a persona though

Not sure what you mean here.

In Persona 1/2, Persona aren't shadows but demons with their own life, and Persona in 3 (and 4/5) are controlled shadows, so they explain how it works. It also explains things we learn in FES and Arena (like what Nyx does and Erebus existing, how do persona exist, etc.)

 

[Lukewoesal007]

It's very different from someone's shadow (the one you have to accept) having a persona though

Both Teddie and Metis are Shadows with Personas, so...

In Persona 1/2, Persona aren't shadows but demons with their own life, and Persona in 3 (and 4/5) are controlled shadows, so they explain how it works. It also explains things we learn in FES and Arena (like what Nyx does and Erebus existing, how do persona exist, etc.)

Shadows are nearly identical to Demons, especially in practice. The lore detailed in the Club Book doesn't necessarily contradict the original trilogy (or greater MegaTen) either.

 

[Potemkat]

Both Teddie and Metis are Shadows with Personas, so...

I think it was said Teddie could because he got his human form, I don't remember an explanation for Metis (though I don't think they directly say she was a shadow, and since she says herself that personas = shadows, it's not very logic because Aigis has personas when she is here).

Shadows are nearly identical to Demons, especially in practice. The lore detailed in the Club Book doesn't necessarily contradict the original trilogy (or greater MegaTen) either.

Not really. Demons had their own lives before being shadows and have families. Shadows are just part of people's minds.
People can turn into demons, but they can't turn into shadows too.
There's also no Wild Card concept in Persona 1/2, while it's an important thing in the others.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I think it was said Teddie could because he got his human form

No? This is a complete fabrication. Teddie received his Persona far before he developed his human form.

I don't remember an explanation for Metis (though I don't think they directly say she was a shadow, and since she says herself that personas = shadows, it's not very logic because Aigis has personas when she is here).

Metis it directly shown to be Aigis' Shadow.

Demons had their own lives before being shadows and have families. Shadows are just part of people's minds.

This implies that Demons aren't Cognitive entities themselves, which is not the case.

People can turn into demons, but they can't turn into shadows too.
There's also no Wild Card concept in Persona 1/2, while it's an important thing in the others.

Again, I don't know what you're arguing for here. My point is that all Persona games are part of the same cosmology and continuity, which itself is connected to the rest of Megami Tensei.

 

[Undylan]

Persona 1 and 2 should exist in the same universe as Persona 3-5 since Nanjo from P1 is named dropped a few times. It's just that Altus doesn't care about P1/P2.

If there is any weird condrictating lore between these games. You can aurge the timetine reset in IS might change some stuff in the lore which eventually led to P3-5 doing a different take on Shadows and Personas in general. But that is just headcanon and there should be connections that prove them all in the same canon.

 

[Potemkat]

No? This is a complete fabrication. Teddie received his Persona far before he developed his human form.

I mean the reason he got both. He got human form right after unlocking Persona and beating his "shadow" (which was a weird since it's the bad guy but also teddie's actual shadow)

Metis it directly shown to be Aigis' Shadow.

It looks different from how shadows are shown in Persona 3 and others. Shadow selves are supposed to look like the true person, so it's special.

This implies that Demons aren't Cognitive entities themselves, which is not the case.

I didn't say that. I said they have their own lives and families (demons can also have jobs but not shadows). Shadows are just part of people mind, with Teddie and Metis being special.

Again, I don't know what you're arguing for here. My point is that all Persona games are part of the same cosmology and continuity, which itself is connected to the rest of Megami Tensei.

I'm just saying a lot of things changed. I don't know anything about Persona or Shin Megami Tensei in VS. I just played these games a lot when I was young.

 

[Pizzabox492]

Yes.


Depends on the character in question and the specific key you're using. Check the range section of the profiles.


I don't know if that's the reason why characters resist ailments or insta-kill spells, though characters are capable of recovering from the effects of ailments on their own within a relatively short period of time. Demons/Personas/etc can also specifically resist Light, Dark, and Ailment skills as well.


2-A to Low 1-C, I believe.


Yaldabaoth clearly merged all of reality with the Collective Unconsciousness. Maruki took over Yaldabaoth's position as Administrator, so he'd be able to do the same (and arguably more with his Actualization ability).


Magic is capable of harming and killing Demons, who are fundamentally composed of a substance known as "Information", which is synonymous to the human Mind/Soul (the two are conflated in MegaTen). Demons themselves are Type 1 Concepts. Check the cosmology blog and Cognitive Physiology page for more information.


The underlying Information and Concepts that comprise reality itself.


It's on his profile.


Nuclear bombs produce radiation.

more questions (sorry if this ping is annoying)

1. where does this pic originate

2. "Magic is capable of harming and killing Demons, who are fundamentally composed of a substance known as "Information", which is synonymous to the human Mind/Soul (the two are conflated in MegaTen). Demons themselves are Type 1 Concepts." ok so is this the same thing with shadows? are shadows composed of information and are type 1 concepts?

3. If all attacks attack the body/mind/soul/info/concept then what about armor and physic attacks which seem to directly target the mind?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

more questions (sorry if this ping is annoying)

No worries.

1. where does this pic originate

The Digital Devil Story card game.

2. "Magic is capable of harming and killing Demons, who are fundamentally composed of a substance known as "Information", which is synonymous to the human Mind/Soul (the two are conflated in MegaTen). Demons themselves are Type 1 Concepts." ok so is this the same thing with shadows? are shadows composed of information and are type 1 concepts?

Yes. Shadows are functionally identical to Demons.

3. If all attacks attack the body/mind/soul/info/concept then what about armor and physic attacks which seem to directly target the mind?

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

 

[Pizzabox492]

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

if all attacks target the body/mind/soul/info/concept then why does armor protect your mind/soul/info/concept when it should be only protecting your body

bonus question: can Joker survive saitamas serious punch without resist/null/drain/repel physical and with no "dimensionally superior" stuff

 

[Lukewoesal007]

if all attacks target the body/mind/soul/info/concept then why does armor protect your mind/soul/info/concept when it should be only protecting your body

Gameplay mechanics, and said armor simply has the ability to do so.

bonus question: can Joker survive saitamas serious punch without resist/null/drain/repel physical and with no "dimensionally superior" stuff

If you mean without him scaling to Low 1-C/1-A through mainline, yes. There's still solid 2-A and Low 1-C evidence solely within Persona.

 

[Pizzabox492]

Gameplay mechanics, and said armor simply has the ability to do so.


If you mean without him scaling to Low 1-C/1-A through mainline, yes. There's still solid 2-A and Low 1-C evidence solely within Persona.

more questions

1. when did the demons die to a flood/ a nuke? cause everyone uses it as a an anti feat on reddit

2. does joker have anything that negates immortality?

3. does joker resist everything in here and why?

4. so are demons and shadows the same except their origin because all shadows came from nyx?

5. why are soul/mind conflated in persona/smt?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

1. when did the demons die to a flood/ a nuke? cause everyone uses it as a an anti feat on reddit

It's just an outlier anti-feat. Fiction is full of those. SMTI was also published far before any of the Low 1-C and 1-A evidence.

2. does joker have anything that negates immortality?

Immortality Negation (Type 2, 3, and 7), and Invulnerability Negation (Capable of interacting with Demons, which are invisible beings comprised of data and information, the fulcrum of the entire verse proper, a concept synonymous to souls, minds, and even concepts. Even entities devoid of time and space, and nonexistent bodies such as The White can be struck down. Can completely negate their invulnerability to conventional weaponry, and the requirement of needing to be on a specific informational frequency to harm, as well as Septentriones, which require spiritual attacks to harm, and as well as killing undead beings and regenerative entities, such as Nagas and Blobs).

3. does joker resist everything in here and why?

Cognition (the Phantom Thieves' wills of rebellion serve as protection against the effects of Cognition)

4. so are demons and shadows the same except their origin because all shadows came from nyx?

Essentially, yeah.

5. why are soul/mind conflated in persona/smt?

Megami Tensei Cosmology Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Dr._whiteee]

why does he scale that high because everyone on reddit says he would be like wall level without SMT scaling or something like that

Joker would still be 1-A without SMT, and in fact, SMT benefits heavily from being connected with Persona.

Kandori from Persona 1 for instance, is stated to transcend dimensionality. Persona 2 has a bunch of important cosmological concepts laid out as well.

Sticking to only his game and games he has been involved in, Yaldabaoth is 2-B from being capable of managing thousands to millions of palaces in Mementos, with palaces being stated to be parallel universes, and even the most weakst mementos rando's being able to produce palace buds.

Yaladbaoth himself merges Kadath Mandala (the place housing persona and demon archetypes) with the real world which is a 1-A feat in of itself, even if you only use Persona.

Finally, Enlil straight up manipulates and controls the Akashic records in PQ2 which is stated to house all possibilities, memories, and events of the infinite persona multiverse. This transcendence without verse context is already baseline Low 1-C level, with context, it is blatant 1-A.

Long story short, read the blog which literally references all of the feats and statistics listed for MT. Redditors haven't done a microgram of research this site has on all the Japanese informational sources and typically argue from their limited perspectives of the franchise.

Also, feel free to invite any of those redditors to our site or a link to our discord and we'd be glad to settle any major gripes if they are reasonable.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

more questions

1. when did the demons die to a flood/ a nuke? cause everyone uses it as a an anti feat on reddit

They don't. Demons would cease to exist without human mental activity and would not be able to incarnate outside of their static archetypes.

 

[Pizzabox492]

Joker would still be 1-A without SMT, and in fact, SMT benefits heavily from being connected with Persona.

Kandori from Persona 1 for instance, is stated to transcend dimensionality. Persona 2 has a bunch of important cosmological concepts laid out as well.

Sticking to only his game and games he has been involved in, Yaldabaoth is 2-B from being capable of managing thousands to millions of palaces in Mementos, with palaces being stated to be parallel universes, and even the most weakst mementos rando's being able to produce palace buds.

Yaladbaoth himself merges Kadath Mandala (the place housing persona and demon archetypes) with the real world which is a 1-A feat in of itself, even if you only use Persona.

Finally, Enlil straight up manipulates and controls the Akashic records in PQ2 which is stated to house all possibilities, memories, and events of the infinite persona multiverse. This transcendence without verse context is already baseline Low 1-C level, with context, it is blatant 1-A.

Long story short, read the blog which literally references all of the feats and statistics listed for MT. Redditors haven't done a microgram of research this site has on all the Japanese informational sources and typically argue from their limited perspectives of the franchise.

Also, feel free to invite any of those redditors to our site or a link to our discord and we'd be glad to settle any major gripes if they are reasonable.

wait what discord and where do you get the fact that yaldy manages palaces

 

[ShionAH]

wait what discord and where do you get the fact that yaldy manages palaces

Just get off reddit. They think chara is mountain level and doomslayer is human level.

 

[Pizzabox492]

Just get off reddit. They think chara is mountain level and doomslayer is human level.

reddit

 

[Pizzabox492]

oh yeah people say yaldy's feats according to reddit, are not combat applicable like managing millions of palaces and having full control over a place that has countless realities isn't combat applicable for some reason