Persona question

[Uuber1]

When Maruki rewrites all of existence in the bad ending is it earth or the universe and does it include the CU as well ? Because everyone's interpretation of this is different.

 

[Hypertornado099]

**** I got spoiled

 

[KingNanaya]

**** I got spoiled

first time?

 

[Uuber1]

**** I got spoiled

 

[Uuber1]

bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

When Maruki rewrites all of existence in the bad ending is it earth or the universe and does it include the CU as well ? Because everyone's interpretation of this is different.

Before you fight him, he says verbatim: "If I win, my reality will become the true reality. I will overwrite all existence with my cognition."

 

[Uuber1]

Before you fight him, he says verbatim: "If I win, my reality will become the true reality. I will overwrite all existence with my cognition."

Yes but that could mean Earth, the Universe, or the entire cosmology.

 

[Robo432343]

Yes but that could mean Earth, the Universe, or the entire cosmology.

earth??? bro....

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yes but that could mean Earth, the Universe, or the entire cosmology.

No, it can only mean the entire cosmology, because the Earth or the universe wouldn't encompass all existence

 

[Uuber1]

earth??? bro....

Yes? He has no reason to go anywhere else past Earth, his goal is to grant humanity their wishes, obviously he isn't going to grant aliens their wishes.

 

[Uuber1]

No, it can only mean the entire cosmology, because the Earth or the universe wouldn't encompass all existence

While you do have a point, but he doesn't know what the Sea of Souls/CU is

Again, Maruki had no reason to anywhere else past Earth.

 

[CloverDragon03]

While you do have a point, but he doesn't know what the Sea of Souls/CU is, Azathoth literally said he has no knowledge of his world.

Again, Maruki had no reason to anywhere else past Earth.

Even if Maruki originally didn't, Azathoth does, meaning Maruki would after he awakens Azathoth

This "he had no reason to" argument doesn't hold up against what's actually stated. Earth is nowhere near "all existence." A single universe is nowhere near "all existence." It's that simple

 

[Uuber1]

Even if Maruki originally didn't, Azathoth does, meaning Maruki would after he awakens Azathoth

Yeah except the Thieves suddenly don't know the entire cosmology when they awakened their own Persona.

This "he had no reason to" argument doesn't hold up against what's actually stated. Earth is nowhere near "all existence." A single universe is nowhere near "all existence." It's that simple

"All of existence" is subjective and like he doesn't even rewrite everything, he just changes peoples cognitions pretty much.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah except the Thieves suddenly don't know the entire cosmology when they awakened their own Persona.

None of the Thieves' main Personas make note of this at all... Azathoth does. And isn't Maruki's dominion over cognition enough to show his grasp on this following his awakening of his Persona?

"All of existence" is subjective and like he doesn't even rewrite everything, he just changes peoples cognitions pretty much.

It literally isn't. "All of existence" means one thing and one thing only... all that exists. Earth is far from all that exists. A single universe is far from all that exists. You'd need to jump through several hoops to arrive at the conclusion that it's only Earth or a universe.

Also, the last part is just wrong. It's basically reality warping on a cosmic scale. Diminishing it as just being changing cognitions is just wrong

 

[Uuber1]

And isn't Maruki's dominion over cognition enough to show his grasp on this following his awakening of his Persona?

That doesn't mean he suddenly knows everything about the CU.

Also, the last part is just wrong. It's basically reality warping on a cosmic scale. Diminishing it as just being changing cognitions is just wrong

Yes, he does it by changing people's cognitions that's why the other thieves broke out of it.

It literally isn't. "All of existence" means one thing and one thing only... all that exists. Earth is far from all that exists. A single universe is far from all that exists. You'd need to jump through several hoops to arrive at the conclusion that it's only Earth or a universe.

Yes than can all of existence within Earth or the Universe, again he had no reason to go past Earth, his goal was to grant humanity their wishes.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I prefer emphasizing the result of that statement over maximizing its potential. If he merely alters people's cognitions, then humanity is essentially the sole focus.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I prefer emphasizing the result of that statement over maximizing its potential. If he merely alters people's cognitions, then humanity is essentially the sole focus.

Well no, because his actualization had already encompassed all of mankind by this point, so it was only going to spread further had he defeated the Phantom Thieves

 

[ImmortalDread]

However, since he didn't actually demonstrate such an accomplishment, why should one assume he would?

 

[CloverDragon03]

However, since he didn't actually demonstrate such an accomplishment, why should one assume he would?

Because we have no reason to assume he wouldn't? That was literally his entire goal

 

[ImmortalDread]

Clover,

Someone made a statement, essentially a claim. This statement can either be true or false. They provided evidence only up to the planetary level, and there's no reason for us to presume they can extend beyond that. It's not my responsibility to prove that they could do more if they haven't shown it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That doesn't mean he suddenly knows everything about the CU.

You've yet to explain why he wouldn't, given Azathoth's own vast knowledge of it and Azathoth being Maruki's Persona. You've given irrelevant examples

Yes, he does it by changing people's cognitions that's why the other thieves broke out of it.

This still doesn't change anything... And this is still a feat on the level of Yaldabaoth's, which merged the real world with Kadath Mandala (hell, it's even beyond that, as Morgana describes him as being on another level compared to Yaldabaoth)

Yes than can all of existence within Earth or the Universe, again he had no reason to go past Earth, his goal was to grant humanity their wishes.

"All of existence within the Earth/Universe" is not all of existence as a whole. You're creating a specificity that was never indicated.

I'm not gonna engage with this further if you're going to just regurgitate the same points repeatedly ad nauseum

 

[CloverDragon03]

Clover,

Someone made a statement, essentially a claim. This statement can either be true or false. They provided evidence only up to the planetary level, and there's no reason for us to presume they can extend beyond that. It's not my responsibility to prove that they could do more if they haven't shown it.

Maruki's feat is described as being on a whole other level compared to a character that did a 1-A feat, is that sufficient?

 

[Executor_N0]

I prefer emphasizing the result of that statement over maximizing its potential. If he merely alters people's cognitions, then humanity is essentially the sole focus.

In the context of the game, humanity cognition = all of existence. The entire nature of existence is mental and formless by nature with each people's view of the world being a form given to the world with the physical world they inhabit being the "common understanding" that happens when there's a common agreement over it.

Downplaying "humanity cognition" makes no sense in Persona, and SMT as a whole, when that is literally the core of all of existence, everything is transcendental thoughts given form.

If Maruki overtakes the entire world's cognition, he is basically taking over the very core that makes up all of existence.

 

[CloverDragon03]

In the context of the game, humanity cognition = all of existence. The entire nature of existence is mental and formless by nature with each people's view of the world being a form given to the world with the physical world they inhabit being the "common understanding" that happens when there's a common agreement over it.

Downplaying "humanity cognition" makes no sense in Persona, and SMT as a whole, when that is literally the core of all of existence, everything is transcendental thoughts given form.

If Maruki overtakes the entire world's cognition, he is basically taking over the very core that makes up all of existence.

Thank god someone who knows about more this stuff than me came in, I was struggling

 

[Uuber1]

In the context of the game, humanity cognition = all of existence. The entire nature of existence is mental and formless by nature with each people's view of the world being a form given to the world with the physical world they inhabit being the "common understanding" that happens when there's a common agreement over it.

Downplaying "humanity cognition" makes no sense in Persona, and SMT as a whole, when that is literally the core of all of existence, everything is transcendental thoughts given form.

If Maruki overtakes the entire world's cognition, he is basically taking over the very core that makes up all of existence.

Would Maruki having full control of Cognition include the CU?

 

[Uuber1]

This still doesn't change anything... And this is still a feat on the level of Yaldabaoth's, which merged the real world with Kadath Mandala (hell, it's even beyond that, as Morgana describes him as being on another level compared to Yaldabaoth)

Didn't just merge Mementos?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Didn't just merge Mementos?

Azathoth notes that the real world had become one with the entire sea of souls, which was what enabled his awakening

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, it can only mean the entire cosmology, because the Earth or the universe wouldn't encompass all existence

@Executor_N0 I would say, my whole issue was this reasoning, but thanks for clarification.

 

[Robo432343]

executor is the hero of this thread

 

[Uuber1]

bump

 

[Executor_N0]

Would Maruki having full control of Cognition include the CU?

Mementos is the manifestation of the CU mankind as it's distorted by Yaldabaoth. Currently, the series cosmology blog interprets the Mementos as encompassing the distorted view (Qliphoth) of the cosmology (Sephiroth) with each layer of mementos being a different world of the Qliphoth, with the last layer in PS5 being the layer that connects all the worlds of the Qliphoth with the Sephiroth and is a path to ascension into the divine light.

 

[Uuber1]

Mementos is the manifestation of the CU mankind as it's distorted by Yaldabaoth. Currently, the series cosmology blog interprets the Mementos as encompassing the distorted view (Qliphoth) of the cosmology (Sephiroth) with each layer of mementos being a different world of the Qliphoth, with the last layer in PS5 being the layer that connects all the worlds of the Qliphoth with the Sephiroth and is a path to ascension into the divine light.

This is a good point, but WHY would he go past Earth? He wants grant humanity their wishes, you only need planetary range to do that and again he only changes the cognition of each persona.

If Maruki overtakes the entire world's cognition, he is basically taking over the very core that makes up all of existence.

He does this in the bad ending right?

 

[Executor_N0]

This is a good point, but WHY would he go past Earth? He wants grant humanity their wishes, you only need planetary range to do that and again he only changes the cognition of each persona.

There isn't a "why he would go". What is being dealt with here isn't physical location, but metaphysical existence. In this case, the metaphysical existence is the cause of the physical phenomena. He's taking over the CU of mankind, and that is really all that needs to be done. What he wants to use that is unrelated to the tiering, if he wanted to make that people now will see everything as a white rabbit or an elephant it doesn't matter, what matters is the way he's doing to do that, which is taking over the very core of the CU.

In general, when we are dealing with very clearly different planes of existence, there isn't really a question of physical location because they are dealing with the very foundation of that reality, not a specific region of that place. The whole physical existence is dependent on the CU, not just the Earth. So, the general question is the "physical reality" (That is wrongly called the "real" world") and the metaphysical non-corporeal reality. If you go out to the moon or Mars you aren't going to not be in the physical reality anymore, you are still in that state of existence.

The point here is of different states of existence, and in that case, the whole plane of existence is generalized as a single thing.

Just because there's a center of the effect, it doesn't change that all the rest is still under the same influence. It's no different from how palaces aren't just the "building" itself, that whole different world is the palace, it's just that in a certain region the distorted desires are more concentrated giving a shape born out of that distortion, and the rest of the world is hardly shown different, but it's still a part of the Palace's cognition as used in the game's very story.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I suppose it is the same argument as time stop, ya.

 

[Uuber1]

There isn't a "why he would go". What is being dealt with here isn't physical location, but metaphysical existence. In this case, the metaphysical existence is the cause of the physical phenomena. He's taking over the CU of mankind, and that is really all that needs to be done. What he wants to use that is unrelated to the tiering, if he wanted to make that people now will see everything as a white rabbit or an elephant it doesn't matter, what matters is the way he's doing to do that, which is taking over the very core of the CU.

In general, when we are dealing with very clearly different planes of existence, there isn't really a question of physical location because they are dealing with the very foundation of that reality, not a specific region of that place. The whole physical existence is dependent on the CU, not just the Earth. So, the general question is the "physical reality" (That is wrongly called the "real" world") and the metaphysical non-corporeal reality. If you go out to the moon or Mars you aren't going to not be in the physical reality anymore, you are still in that state of existence.

The point here is of different states of existence, and in that case, the whole plane of existence is generalized as a single thing.

Just because there's a center of the effect, it doesn't change that all the rest is still under the same influence. It's no different from how palaces aren't just the "building" itself, that whole different world is the palace, it's just that in a certain region the distorted desires are more concentrated giving a shape born out of that distortion, and the rest of the world is hardly shown different, but it's still a part of the Palace's cognition as used in the game's very story.

So he grants peoples wishes by warping all of existence in the process?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

@Executor_N0 you continue to cook in ways I can only envy.

 

[Uuber1]

There isn't a "why he would go". What is being dealt with here isn't physical location, but metaphysical existence. In this case, the metaphysical existence is the cause of the physical phenomena. He's taking over the CU of mankind, and that is really all that needs to be done. What he wants to use that is unrelated to the tiering, if he wanted to make that people now will see everything as a white rabbit or an elephant it doesn't matter, what matters is the way he's doing to do that, which is taking over the very core of the CU.

In general, when we are dealing with very clearly different planes of existence, there isn't really a question of physical location because they are dealing with the very foundation of that reality, not a specific region of that place. The whole physical existence is dependent on the CU, not just the Earth. So, the general question is the "physical reality" (That is wrongly called the "real" world") and the metaphysical non-corporeal reality. If you go out to the moon or Mars you aren't going to not be in the physical reality anymore, you are still in that state of existence.

The point here is of different states of existence, and in that case, the whole plane of existence is generalized as a single thing.

Just because there's a center of the effect, it doesn't change that all the rest is still under the same influence. It's no different from how palaces aren't just the "building" itself, that whole different world is the palace, it's just that in a certain region the distorted desires are more concentrated giving a shape born out of that distortion, and the rest of the world is hardly shown different, but it's still a part of the Palace's cognition as used in the game's very story.

I'm to stupid to understand this

 

[Executor_N0]

I'm to stupid to understand this

Basically, the effect itself in the exact instant is irrelevant to the tier itself. He could make the wishes of humanity come true in many ways and the individual effects aren't that impressive, normal resurrection, mind manipulation/influencing, a few things happening in a certain way, etc. What matters is the way he makes those wishes become true, that is by taking over the very core of reality and putting his distorted view of an idealized truth as the rule that maintains all of existence working.

Think like you could make half of the universe's population die in an instant. You could do that by using basic death manipulation over a very high area, but you could also look at the core of reality that emanates everything that happens and from that core change a few lines of the code of reality with the result being "half of the universe's population died". You could make that be just half of the earth's population to fit more with the range shown directly in Persona 5R.

The point isn't what he did, but how he did it. If he had unlocked low reality manipulation that lets him shape the world into his personal universe, there are many ways of doing that, in fact, many demons have pocket universes of their own and in the right conditions they could overlap with the physical reality and take over it with the right unbalance. What matters is how; it's the fact that he ascended to some of the highest levels of the Qliphoth/Sephiroth in the very sea of souls they all come from and uses that to emanate his distorted view of the world as the sole single reason for everyone by making their deeper desires become true.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

In all honesty, I have a really hard time believing that this is a genuine, good faith question. To claim, confidently, that all of existence could refer to Earth is such a deliberate way to interpret those words I can’t help but feel you’re just being disingenuous.

 

[Uuber1]

In all honesty, I have a really hard time believing that this is a genuine, good faith question. To claim, confidently, that all of existence could refer to Earth is such a deliberate way to interpret those words I can’t help but feel you’re just being disingenuous.

It would makes sense that its only Earth because Cognition is the concept of people view shaping the verse, so it would makes sense it would only be earth because that's where sentient life is at, where y'know the people live.