So Adam Kodmon/Maruki Takuto is actually 1-A the changes weren't just applied? or updated?
Profiles just haven't been updated yet, AK is actually supposed to be the strongest 1-A in MegaTen barring the Axiom
You 4got Anarchy Route Nanashi.
They defeated true power Stephen, who went through all space and time to contact the Great Reason, thus making him > all the gods who are just the Bunreis of the Great Reason.
Anarchy Route Nanashi is way too weak for AK/Stephen tier, he's only Great Will tier
Yeah and Great Reason/Axiom > Adam Kadmon >>> Great Will > YHVH
I'm assuming this is aimed towards me, because I don't think Gold said as such. Basically, the Messiahs DLC is pertinent to the Great Will using his individual manifestations to kill the Messiahs before they gained enough power. The DLC is only applicable to players who have played near the beginning of the game, or at its end iirc, and as such it is probably not applicable that the YHVH we see in SMT4A is the Great Will, but just another Avatar.
Persona takes place in the Devil Summoner timeline, in which Raidou was cited to free the world from God’s influence, which explains his lack of inclusion. During the events of Hazama Hen, the world of SMT: if… Hazama is stated to be capable of overthrowing The Almighty, only if he disregards the last vestiges of his humanity. This is significant because Tamaki Uchida appears in Persona 2, with her Devil Summoning Program. YHVH having no relevance fails to matter, considering all Demons are merely a result of His divine outflow of power.
I would simply advise you to pay more attention to the games, then, as Adam Kadmon is directly cited to be the “source and destination”, by Maruki himself. Furthermore, the Thieves Den describes him as the “The Kabbalah describes Adam Kadmon as the primordial human with deific form—an ideal for all humans to strive towards.”, which is essentially what Philemon recites, stating if more humans were like the P2:EP, they could reach a state of existence where they understood their existence, to reach a perfect whole state of Man’s soul.
I would’ve quoted you if I was.
It, in-fact, does. Yamai states that humans created The Great Reason, just as it created them. During that time they were incorporeal, immortal faucets whose rudimentary and new emotions gave way to Gods in the first place, with him even describing it as “a baby learning it’s surroundings”. The very act of the Great Reason evolving was due to Humans working within, and in-tune with it to create the world, with Yamai (director) and Miyata (writer), directly describing it as the Collective Unconscious.
I don't see why that would matter, considering that the act of making human consciousness corporeal (and its inverse, returning it to be non-corporeal) is an act that YHVH can do with his own power. So either YHVH would have to go higher in the scaling chain or the Axiom would have to go lower, try to make a CRT about it, I'm not that deeply entrenched in MegaTen's cosmology
Because they are? It's stated time after time that YHVH is only the Great Will's main avatar, the same way the Great Will is an avatar of the Great Reason. This is further supported by how multiple people usurp YHVH's position as the Great Will's avatar, with Matter Lucifer in SMTV specifically saying he "took YHVH's place in the Great Will's design"
YHVH only did so after taking the collective Observation of humanity to make Him the One True God. He manipulates Observation by staying outside It’s range, that’s the entire point, which is why Satan describes him as no different than any other Demon, when he’s debased, and people lose faith. What Nanashi is doing is instant, reverting everything back to the source where Humans were more than Human. Why would we make a CRT when you’re just flat out wrong?
This is, also, at no point, ever stated anywhere in SMT V’s story. He says “I defeated the Creator, and became more than He could possibly imagine”.
Fair enough, kinda harsh but fair enough
Yeah, you're right I misremembered it. I was thinking of the Mandala system.
YHVH is the Great Will because the Great Will created YHVH as an avatar. The Great Will's always been portrayed to be the deeper "true self" of YHVH (with YHVH being considered "infinitesimal" compared to the Great Will), that's why he talks about the Great Will resurrecting him. I see it the same way as a person in KH completely regenerating from their Heart or a Maou Gakuin character completely regenerating from their Source.
Anarchy Route Nanashi literally create a world where he and the humans exist in the same spectrum as the Axiom. Something that Stephen, could very well not capable of.
No, the world that Nanashi created contains beings that exist in tune with the Axiom, literally Axiom tier.
YHVH=The Great Will=Mandala System. Satan states that Nanashi will take over YHVH throne as "Become the next Will of the Universe".
YHVH is actually responsible in creating it...
Well, then, stop comparing it to KH, and Maou Gakuin - because it is neither. They are the same entity, through and through. The Manifestation Heads are still very vividly aware of their true Self, and essentially participate in the fight in IV:A, hence, the infinite amount of heads within the background of the fight.
Will probably discuss this at a later date. After or during next CRT, that is.
Then why does the wiki seem to treat the Great Will as a greater key of YHVH?
Yeah I was dumb, I just remembered
Manifestation Head | True Self (Great Will) | Demonized Form
1. The P5 protagonist, Joker.
I know all of this already, though thank you for explaining it. There is also the appearance of Raiho, I guess.
Is this in relation to the Nocturne quote of everyone being YHVH's Bunrei, or that statement from Satan? I never contested to that, but I fail to see how that's relevant to Persona anyway as they are explicitly stated to be born, and residents of the sea of souls. I also don't think, if he's overthrown, that the entities that come afterward should be deemed relevant to him.
I'm pretty sure most of the additional things accepted for fact on this wiki, is based on assertions from data learned from the japanese scans as well as assumptions derived from it, something that is not readily available to all fans, and I'm still going through all the games. That is, even if my comprehension is not at the same level, my ability to pay attention is just fine, thank you.
Yes, I remember that scene with Maruki, however being a source of something or the destination for a more wholesome state is not evidence of something transcending it much less to the extent that is implied in the profile. I thank you for the other tidbits of information, though.
Sorry, my bad.
It was born out of the collected unconscious and a "deep part of the shared awareness" but it's not the collective unconscious itself, no more than the persona administrators. I guess I can see where your reasoning is coming from though.
You still haven't really addressed my concerns though. Why is it that the Great Will's acts seemed independent of YHVH in the DLC? I've looked into it again, thinking I was misremembering, and it literally says at the beginning of the DLC
SMT II guidebook. I have no idea what the former or latter statements are.
What? I don’t understand.
Persona 5 Royal has been out for two years, with a fully functional English translation and a Thieves Den any player can access, which is where the statement comes from. In no point did I ever mention anything about Japanese scans in relation to Adam Kadmon. So, once again, I advise you pay attention to not only what I’m saying, but what the games are.
That’s because it’s being redone, lol.
I have… no idea what you’re trying to assert. Why does it being after the main story disprove me? I’ve already proven that they’re the same in an earlier comment to GoldExPoints.
Thanks
I thought you were implying Adam Kadmon scales to YHVH because all the demons are results of his divine outflow and I disagreed because he was already overthrown and there's not enough points of references to scale them to each other.
That wasn't referring to you, but in regards to all that Kandath Mandela stuff in UltimateReality's thread.
Fair.
Conveniently? I don't like what you are implying. When I mentioned (It was born out of the collected unconscious and a "deep part of the shared awareness") I was referring to that quote but I specifically didn't bother to quote the whole thing since I was certain you knew what I would be referring to (which you did) and because the quote doesn't add anything to the discussion. It literally states the Great Reason belongs to the deep part of the origin of the collective unconscious, not that it is the collective unconscious itself. Wherever the deepest part of the collective unconscious' origin is, the Axiom was born of it and resides there.
Sorry, for some reason those comments just didn't register to me.
No. I never said that.
When Yamai himself cites that Gods themselves were born out of shared awareness, that very confidently gashes through your point.
I genuinely have no idea what you’re saying. Where did I ever say that?
Where is this said?
This is a very foolish point, considering right afterwards, Lucifer notes that The Great Will will curse Demi-Fiend. Similarly, how YHVH cursed Aleph. Or how it did to Hijirii, or Kazuya, etc. The only character that recurrently curses characters is YHVH, who is the Great Will. It’s recurrently cited that Lucifer is a discarded aspect of God, and here he admits that he is created by the Great Will. Just like how Metatron is stated to be the Voice of the Great Will, which is how he’s also stated to be the voice of God. It’s pretty evident the Great Will is a lawful entity, considering Shekinah (the feminine aspect of God), laments her failure and begs for forgiveness.
This isn’t even an argument.
No. Satan very clearly calls him the “Will of the Universe” in IV:A, YHVH himself says “The Will of the Universe will resurrect recreate me” in SMT II, an infinite cycle of creation governed by the Great Will in SMT III, which is the exact same as in SMT I & IV:A, which he admits to be apart of, and is, everything.
Which, the exact same rhetoric is spoken of in V, where the Great Will governs creation and a cycle of reincarnation. Just like how YHVH does.
It's certainly possible but honestly, I don't think the Great Will and the Mandela is at all involved like that. It makes no sense for Lucifer, who has been known to reference the Great Will directly, to suddenly refer to it by another name especially considering the conversations with certain demons and Demi-Fiend's presence indicate that this game directly occurs after the events in Nocturne (or as close enough as it can with a franchise that canonically uses possibilities to describe the characters in relation to one another between canon games). It is most likely, the Axiom or the Great Reason, which we know is also directly responsible for that kind of cyclic existence as stated by Krishna and in the interview, with entities like YHVH and Brahman being just Bunrei that adopt this system since it is so beneficial to their needs, or it is maybe a different entity entirely. As they say in the interview, the existence of the circle of transmigration is a good thing, so the Great Reason created that system which perhaps YHVH too took part in.
Considering I never denied that I don't see how my point is at all contradicted. Once again being "born of something" means nothing.
Er...sorry, I mistook someone else's statement for yours.
Sorry, I misspoke. I should have stated that it was implied that this was the case, considering even after the events of the story YHVH was still acting to get rid of the Messiahs, thus debunking the idea that the manifestation heads, based only on an artistic representation, were the complete entity of the Great Will as spoken about in the early years of Shin Megami Tensei since they were consecutively and summarily destroyed prior to the events of the DLC and thus YHVH shouldn't have been much of a problem anymore. Maybe the key should be renamed to "Will of the Universe" instead?
Merkabah was also likened to be god in SMT4 and in the interview Uriel was also stated to be god, Lucifer was cast out of hell by Michael but laments he could not surpass God as well as the many statements in even the spinoffs like the Kuzunoha franchise... it is perfectly acceptable, even to the most rigid of characters of the law system, to be identified as the same as the individual whose ideals they embody yet exist only as a part of them (not even mentioning Satan's point of view on the matter). Due to the many statements like these, things like Lucifer's comments of being "equal to God" and some such is not mere contradiction or PIS as stated by some on this wiki, but a reference in relationship to Merkabah who is God from a certain perspective, but not the perspective that involves YHVH.
Except it completely is. Being depicted as a many headed figure as an artistic representation of YHVH being the ruler of all the Universes does not mean that it is at all the Great Will since upon his defeat there was absolutely no change in the cosmology of the other worlds in the Messiah DLC. It only proves that the universe depicted in SMT4A was a multiverse, which we already suspected anyway.
In SMT4A YHVH also says the Will of the Universe will snuff us out which is a strange thing to say if he personally saw himself as the Great Will. Further, I'm not even arguing that he wasn't the Great Will, just that we've never seen the complete entity or the space described. YHVH in SMT4A was just a "greater consciousness", not the whole thing as indicated that the cosmology in question only extended to SMT4A's universe, while the Great Will spans almost the entirety of the franchise.
As stated above I disagree with this. YHVH is not the only entity that does or partakes in the cycles of reincarnation. Honestly, every head deity probably has done it since "This is the Axiom which cannot be overturned" and many of them have ruled the cosmos before YHVH.
Nocturne is like...years older than SMT V, Atlus could very well need some new things y'know. Also this Lucifer has absorbed nigh omniscient knowledge after absorbing YHVH's essence, so him referring things differently it's alright, he's nigh omniscient after all. Anything he said is 90% correct.
That's because YHVH isn't truly dead, his true form still exist as the Will of the Universe.
The Will of the Universe was stated to be omnipresence in SMT IV A tho...
Not in the sense they're the Will of the Universe itself or sit on the throne beyond all of existence doesn't it?
Years older, but they still reference its happenings like Decarabia not meeting up with Forneus because the latter is dead and the Great Will being known as...well...the Great Will.
That's my point isn't it? The Great Will is still very much relevant whether or not YHVH's manifestation Heads are present or active. By definition the manifestation we saw in SMT 4A or anywhere else rather, cannot be "The Great Will" in its entirety.
My point was, no matter the characteristics given to him, it only applied to the cosmology in SMT 4A as clearly, the other many worlds weren't affected in the DLC. Honestly, even the goddess of Tokyo could travel to another world to avoid Nanashi's multiversal recreation that expressively needed YHVH's own universe to be destroyed, implying it was of a similar if not greater size in Nanashi's Anarchy route.
Honestly? Yes and no.
Baal was ruling the universe at that point, but it was a part of the design of WotU.
It's a different throne, the throne that the Nahobino sit on is on the Realm Beyond Earth and Heaven, above the three pillars of the Tree of Life. While YHVH's Universe sit above the 4 branes. If it is the same throne then someone would state that the Nahobino become the Will of the Universe or the Mandala System which doesn't happen in SMT V.
We never know what happened to the goddess of Tokyo after Nanashi recreate the universe, saying that she somehow survived the recreation of existence require extraordinary evidence.
"You will not be able to see her anymore. She will find another messiah in another Universe."Stephen also warns Nanashi of Messiahs rousing Flynn's protectiveness. We knew exactly what she was doing. That is, searching for Messiahs in other universes to challenge Anarchy Route Nanashi. This isn't including the many worlds outside Nanashi's control in the DLC.
I misunderstood you, I thought you were referring to the throne of SMT V, my apologies.
