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Persona Discussion Thread

I think it is a personality thing because whenever you enter the velvet room (at least in Persona 5) it looks like you just pause and go blank for a second or two to everyone else watching. I think it's supposed to represent entering your subconcious, thus that's the reason you get to create and fuse persona's within the room exclusively.

Plus, Igor says this in P5: "You will be training the power of Persona, which you have awakened to. Personas are, in other words, a "mask"—an armor of the heart when confronting worldly matters."

So... are demons = personas? At least in terms of strength? If demons are from a collective unconcious and personas are from a single subconcious, that means that demons should be more powerful than personas?

I can expand a bit on the Persona 1 profiles, they just seem empty. P2 profiles are terrible.
 
I'm against Palace Creation not being legit. Shadows has the control over their respective palaces, as seen in Sae's case. When they're defeated, the entire thing collapsed on its own, including galaxy of Okumura and Yaldabaoth's mementos. Akira legit couldn't travel to it anymore. They have capacity to hold the entire dimension.
 
Actually that's wrong, they don't have inherent manipulation over the entire palace. The shadows that reside in it? Sure, Kamoshida and the others can order them around. Are they given special permissions and access to some areas? Yes, but that's because they're literally king, not because they're changing anything about the world around them. Sae is no different; she's in charge so of course she can rig the games involved. She's not clapping her hands and the casino starts closing up on them. She's just the head honcho.

Yes the palace collapses but that's a consequence of them losing their distorted desires or dying. It's like if you slowly built a community around a gold mine, but then it suddenly ran out of gold. Well then the community is going to collapse. If the shadow counterpart dies then so does the real world one. That's why the palace collapses, because the real world one dies, not the shadow.
 
The following arguments still remain:

- No timeframe for how fast a palace is created therefore assuming instantly is wrong (especially when there is loose evidence to the contrary)

- The scaling should mean that Okumura > Shido and possibly Yalda. That is of course far from true.
 
Demons and Personas are completely different entities and don't directly scale to each other outside of actually fighting one another.

Helping with the P1 profiles would be greatly appreciated tbh.

Shido is stronger than Okumura via powerscaling and doesn't need his own feat.
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
Insta kills in P4A are non-canon. Akihiko's insta kills is 3-B if it's legit.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure it'd be 4-A actually, which isn't at all inconsistent with the verse as a whole. Either way it was rejected in the past without much discussion.
 
Sae can just travel from place to place with snap of her fingers. Palaces are manifestations of the place they think differently, hence they have rules. Akechi took advantage of that. It's common that they don't use their control of their own dimension in Japanese fiction. Look at Moon Presence, Janemba, Orphan of Kos, etc.

Neither Kamoshida or Shido died yet the palace collapsed. If real one dies, shadow dies. If shadow dies, palace collapse. The point that palace relying on shadow still stands. Shadow dies when they're desire dies, the palace also collapse. Shadows are representation of their twisted selves. Even if the Okumura's palace collapse is gradual, it's still 4-A. It took dialogues and one cutscene to get them out and it's countless stars worth of space it collapses. 4-A right now is low-ball as well, it said to be the galaxy.
 
I'm pretty sure it'd be 4-A actually, which isn't at all inconsistent with the verse as a whole. Either way it was rejected in the past without much discussion.

Yet you see actual galaxies spinning around?
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
Sae can just travel from place to place with snap of her fingers. Palaces are manifestations of the place they think differently, hence they have rules. Akechi took advantage of that. It's common that they don't use their control of their own dimension in Japanese fiction. Look at Moon Presence, Janemba, Orphan of Kos, etc.

Neither Kamoshida or Shido died yet the palace collapsed. If real one dies, shadow dies. If shadow dies, palace collapse. The point that palace relying on shadow still stands. Shadow dies when they're desire dies, the palace also collapse. Shadows are representation of their twisted selves. Even if the Okumura's palace collapse is gradual, it's still 4-A. It took dialogues and one cutscene to get them out and it's countless stars worth of space it collapses. 4-A right now is low-ball as well, it said to be the galaxy.
Click to expand...
Wrong, Sae wasn't teleporting she was blinding you with a vanish ball then running away. You can literally see her in the elevator a few seconds later as the team looks around. Why teleport to an elevator if you can just teleport to the next floor? Nothing suggests teleportation especially when she literally has to blind your team first.

Kamoshida or Shido dont die when the palace collapses because it represents your twisted desires collapsing. If the real one dies the shadow doesn't necessarily die; sure the palace collapses but if they wake up (in the case of Shidos induced death) and still have the twisted desires of course the palace and therefore their shadow still exists. The palace doesn't rely on the shadow, it relies on the real person. Killing the shadow makes the real one have a psychological breakdown and potential death, that is what causes the palace to collapse. Killing the real one ceases the distorted desires on part of not having a brain which again causes the palace to collapse. Correlation is not causation. Killing the shadow and having the palace collapse doesn't mean it was dependant on the shadow, especially when the shadow is the first thing created by distorted desires (based on everyone having a shadow in momentos BEFORE getting their own palace).

Okumura has a palace which has 4-A durability, sure, but since it was created over time it cannot be correlated with shadow Okumuras AP. The source of his desires started when he was a little boy and he couldn't afford a toy play set. That's at least 30 years of cultivating his palace through unknown means, so for now we can't say it's equal to his AP.
 
No, it relies on the representation of the twisted selves. Their shadows. Shadows relies on their true selves. Shadow Okumura isn't in Mementos jail cell because he's dead. Their shadow is in Mementos now in jail cell once they're defeated, did you even finished it? When the desire of the person became too much, they'll locked up in a palace, escaping mementos in the process. Once they're defeated shadow will know their mistake, returning to the jail cell because they don't want it anymore. That was the explanation of the game.

Creation, I don't think so. Many people have desires and it won't go like that. Collapse is also a thing, and it's 4-A.
 
Correct, so at the hierarchy the real person creates the shadow by having the desires, the desires grow and so the shadow progressively builds up into a palace. None of that implies the shadow has any manipulation over the actual palace nor does it imply the shadow created it instantly which is REQUIRED for it to scale to their AP.

Well the game told us when Okumuras desires began and why. Desires go away when you have a psychological breakdown or you die. His palace collapsed and it would be a 4-A explosion, sure, but none of that can be correlated to his AP.
 
No? If I create an universe in months, I will still be 3-A/Low 2-C. Feat created when defeated is okay, Prof. God of War for example. Ares is High 6-A because of his death. Monster Hunter is another. Zorah Magdaros is 6-B even though it's his death feat. When Okumura is defeated, the entire thing collapsed. It's 4-A.
 
But there's no distinct way of knowing how he created the universe outside of fueling it with desires. We don't know how long it took either. Both are NEEDED for a creation feat. We don't have either outside of a vague time estimate.

Furthermore that assumes his entire palace is the solar system rather than just the satellite which is also wrong. Assuming he made an entire solar system and it collapsed than sure, THAT'S a 4-A environmental destruction and not an AP feat either.
 
Solar System? It's galaxy. The entire space is his palace. His last plan is to escape to the satellite he is in to space. It's his cognition, Mementos doesn't have space. He was 3-C, it's only changed to 4-A because galaxy was never shown. We always use estimates in calcs, Prof. By the definition given to us, it's not much different than any other creation feat really. We don't know how Madail created his creation, it just popped up. Also that feat calc has a LOT of assumptions.

I don't think it was Environmental Destruction. He created it, he destroyed it. What's unfeasible about it. Even if it's Environmental Destruction, Yaldabaoth still scale from that. He should be way higher than that collapse.
 
Nah you guys had me confused with the rating but the palace is literally a spaceport. It's called spaceport of greed. The space in between was not created by him lol. He created the spaceport and only the spaceport as that is what you have to break into, that's what the dungeon is refered to ass. Unless you can find a screenshot showing me it's the entire solar system then you have no argument.

If it was a solar system it collapsing is not an AP feat for him. He can't control it and he doesn't manipulate it so its not a demonstration of his power.
 
Actually it is. As it collapsing after he's defeated means that he's the one who maintained the realm and thus scales to AP and Durability.
 
No, rules of cognitive world disagrees. Places that aren't affected by palace users are completely identical to the real world, that's why they fooled Akechi. It was afternoon when you entered the palace and there was space. With stars. There's nothing like that in afternoon. Palace includes the background period unless it's also like that in the real world.

It scales to Yaldabaoth anyway, Environmental Destruction or not. Either way, it still 4-A for late game.
 
So your saying that... there are no stars in the afternoon? You realize his palace starts as the spaceport, right? The only thing unusual and different in that setting is the spaceport, that would not be there in the real world but the space and stars should.

Or maybe you're implying palaces must be the real world location? Because that's never been said either. Futaba room is not remotely close to the size of a pyramid.
 
Sae's palace is Casino. You get outside and it's normal road and normal buildings. It should apply to Okumura's palace, otherwise it's breaking rules. Location of the world doesn't matter, if you see school as castle, it only affects school, if you see your house as museum, it only affects museum. Another rules in the game. No matter how big it is, if it's outside, you will see normal stuff. Okumura only affects an entire building, space of the area doesn't matter. If Okumura doesn't affect it, you'll only see spaceport in afternoon. He'll get out as shadow without going into mementos, he created the space itself.
 
All right I'm finally understanding what you're saying now. Other peoples palaces are normally just an entire building that's replaced with the respective palace, but Okumura's seems to be an entire planet replaced far far away, right?

In that case since you start far away from Earth in a spaceport that would be a planet level feat at the minimum. That's the minimum logical leap we can make. Sure it can be an entire solar system that has been displaced, but the former explanation works just as well despite it being "weaker".

That's assuming the creation feat is legitimate, which requires an accurate timeframe and an accurate method of creation. We know the twisted desires fuels the creation but we don't know how palaces actually gets built and we don't know how long it takes.

Besides that everyone else has no feats other than this vague creation one. It's literally the only feat for the verse, the other being comparing them to Kamoshida which still suffers the same problems. This is what we would call an outlier.

Me thinks it's time to do some calculations and go through the lore a little bit more.
 
You know, all this palace talk got me thinking. We assume for the sake of vs debates, that P5 characters are already in mementos (or otherwise have access to their powers) but is it the same for the palace keepers? Using Shido as an example since he's the only one with a page (as low quality as his is), if he were to be killed in a vs thread, would the whole "palace collapse" thing happen in said thread and nuke the battlefield? I mean he literally can't exist in that form outside of his own palace.
 
Can we stop using discussion threads simply for vs relating things? We have CRTs for that. These should just be a place for fans to come and talk about their favorite verses.

Anyway. PQ2 is more or less right around the corner but I feel that 11/29 is too far away ;_;
 
You simply must, it is such a good game even with a quirky artstyle.
 
I plan to. It's on the list I just wasn't sure exactly where. I might bump it up so I can beat it in time for the sequel.
 
"These should just be a place for fans to come and talk about their favorite verses."

@Sera then shall we start talking about best ships and start the waifu/husbando wars? ƒÿÅ
 
Scarletmoon56 said:
"These should just be a place for fans to come and talk about their favorite verses."
@Sera then shall we start talking about best ships and start the waifu/husnado wars? ƒÿÅ
Click to expand...
Let's not open that can of flame buddy.
 
I have a question. Why is Messiah (Persona) 4-A? it's profile says that it is stated to be comparable to Nyx, but this never happens. It also says that it and the Universe arcana allow Makoto to become immune to Nyx's blows but this only happens in the movie, not the game. In fact Messiah is a completely optional persona in persona 3; you never have to use it. Also, why does Messiah even have a profile? No other persona has one.
 
The quote comes from Igor. He's actually referring to the Universe Arcana rather than Messiah itself, so whether or not he uses messiah the protag still gets the rating.

"I never dreamed of seeing that card with my own eyes... This is indeed a surprise... Behold the last power you and I shall unveil... It is the power to bring about a new beginning, or the ultimate end. It may be possible now, with this newfound power... You may be able to defeat the one who cannot be defeated. What you have in your hands is the power of the Universe... ...Nothing is outside the realm of possibility for you now."

Also, no other Persona has a profile because Messiah's is the only one anybody bothered to make.
 
I don't think Personas should be given profiles unless they also have a Shadow equivalent. And yes Makoto scales to Messiah... Of course he does.
 
Edwellken said:
The quote comes from Igor. He's actually referring to the Universe Arcana rather than Messiah itself, so whether or not he uses messiah the protag still gets the rating.

"I never dreamed of seeing that card with my own eyes... This is indeed a surprise... Behold the last power you and I shall unveil... It is the power to bring about a new beginning, or the ultimate end. It may be possible now, with this newfound power... You may be able to defeat the one who cannot be defeated. What you have in your hands is the power of the Universe... ...Nothing is outside the realm of possibility for you now."

Also, no other Persona has a profile because Messiah's is the only one anybody bothered to make.
Click to expand...
I know Makoto is 4-A from the Universe Arcana; I am asking why Messiah scales to that. Messiah has nothing to do with the Universe Arcana in the game and is only connected to the Universe Arcana in the movie, which I am pretty sure isn't canon, so why would it scale to 4-A.
 
It's his Ultimate Persona, of course it scales. It's even under The World in Persona Q rather than Judgment as it is in P3 and P5. We don't know much about The Universe but it's basically the equivalent of the World and I explained all protagonist's Ultimate Personas are tied to The World arcana in some way. Just watch, in PQ2 Satanael will be The World instead of The Fool.
 
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