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And the P5 party scales from ED, in which Yaldabaoth would scale to. Same logic....
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Persona 5 Profile Creation
- Thread starter KinkiestSins
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"Gag feat".
Geez, is not like everything that the characters do in the Metaverse are real as long as their cognition says so, and it's not like the palaces are places where their ruler's cognition determines their form and theme, etc. If Okumura's cognition allows him to galaxy bust in the Metaworld, then he can.
Also, Toon Force is a very common thing in fiction. Doesn't make the feat not legit. That's like saying that Mxy can't be High Multiversal+ because he's a joke character.
Geez, is not like everything that the characters do in the Metaverse are real as long as their cognition says so, and it's not like the palaces are places where their ruler's cognition determines their form and theme, etc. If Okumura's cognition allows him to galaxy bust in the Metaworld, then he can.
Also, Toon Force is a very common thing in fiction. Doesn't make the feat not legit. That's like saying that Mxy can't be High Multiversal+ because he's a joke character.
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Edwellken said:
You're not the only one
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I think so too, this seems to be an outlier feat. I love SMT and Persona. But I cant accept one 3-C feats for the basis of our crucial power scaling
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`Prove it's an outlier.
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All you've argued is that
1) It only happened once. Despite me mentioning Cosmic Flare and Morning Star multiple times.
2) It would mess up scaling. Yet you haven't explained how.
3) Final Boss didn't do it. We've already countered that.
4) It's a gag. Me and Matt have explained why that does not work.
5) You cannot accept it. Just because you don't accept it does not make it wrong.
1) It only happened once. Despite me mentioning Cosmic Flare and Morning Star multiple times.
2) It would mess up scaling. Yet you haven't explained how.
3) Final Boss didn't do it. We've already countered that.
4) It's a gag. Me and Matt have explained why that does not work.
5) You cannot accept it. Just because you don't accept it does not make it wrong.
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- #129
1. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Outlier
It is an outlier because it is inconistent with any feats the story. You bring up two attacks and one of these attacks was also in persona 3 and 4 Does that mean we should give 3 and 4 characters 3-C because they can use it. No that is ridicilous. You say prove it is an outlier but anyone who can look at the series subjectively will see this line of reasoning doesnt fit anything else shown in the story of the game. But hey, maybe I am stubborn who knows?
2. Explained above and it would give everyone 3-C in the main cast. So what is MC and Yaldaboat? "At Least 3-C, but he has just a 5-B feat but we will let that slide because hey I cant be inconsistent here." 3. No you didnt. You just said that just because the feat was not done by the final boss doesnt mean it isnt legitimate. If you want to be consistent, you should say the same thing for Roshi and the moonbusting feat, but in the dragon ball he is at end of series just city level. 4. I didnt say that, i dont agree or disagree here.
5. I cannot accept because of the reasons above. It makes no sense either logically or canonically.
In my opinion, this is grasping. So two attacks that show pretty stars in their animation with one off hand animation.
I am fine with SOME examples of 4-A or higher feats in pocket dimensions. I supported the dracula upgrades because he has been repeated and it is CONSISTENT. But this is about as consistent as Final Fantasy 7's graphic textures. My reasoning and my opinion dictates that as a fan of the series, this makes no sense.
If this feat has been replicated anywhere else in the story, sure. We can talk about 3-C or higher persona 5 characters
I am not against that idea. But I do not like the idea of something as faulty as this baseline be used. This seems like to me to be circular reasoning and a wank.
And unless one of us three change our opinion, we are at an impasse.
It is an outlier because it is inconistent with any feats the story. You bring up two attacks and one of these attacks was also in persona 3 and 4 Does that mean we should give 3 and 4 characters 3-C because they can use it. No that is ridicilous. You say prove it is an outlier but anyone who can look at the series subjectively will see this line of reasoning doesnt fit anything else shown in the story of the game. But hey, maybe I am stubborn who knows?
2. Explained above and it would give everyone 3-C in the main cast. So what is MC and Yaldaboat? "At Least 3-C, but he has just a 5-B feat but we will let that slide because hey I cant be inconsistent here." 3. No you didnt. You just said that just because the feat was not done by the final boss doesnt mean it isnt legitimate. If you want to be consistent, you should say the same thing for Roshi and the moonbusting feat, but in the dragon ball he is at end of series just city level. 4. I didnt say that, i dont agree or disagree here.
5. I cannot accept because of the reasons above. It makes no sense either logically or canonically.
In my opinion, this is grasping. So two attacks that show pretty stars in their animation with one off hand animation.
I am fine with SOME examples of 4-A or higher feats in pocket dimensions. I supported the dracula upgrades because he has been repeated and it is CONSISTENT. But this is about as consistent as Final Fantasy 7's graphic textures. My reasoning and my opinion dictates that as a fan of the series, this makes no sense.
If this feat has been replicated anywhere else in the story, sure. We can talk about 3-C or higher persona 5 characters
I am not against that idea. But I do not like the idea of something as faulty as this baseline be used. This seems like to me to be circular reasoning and a wank.
And unless one of us three change our opinion, we are at an impasse.
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Well, both sides seem to make good points. I am uncertain. Perhaps "At least 5-B. Likely 3-C" would be an acceptable compromise?
That said, I am leaning more towards Matthew's and Dragonmasterxyz's interpretation, and we may have to rate this as 3-C for the sake of consistency with other JRPG series.
That said, I am leaning more towards Matthew's and Dragonmasterxyz's interpretation, and we may have to rate this as 3-C for the sake of consistency with other JRPG series.
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@Antvasima
I am completely against not having this be straigtht up 3-C.
@Kinky
1. It can't be an outlier given that there are similar special moves involving stars in the game, and Yaldabaoth's goal of fusing the whole Metaworld with the Human World (We see how big the Metaworld can be with Okumura's palace)
2. You haven't explained how it would be inconsistent for the cast to be Planet level. They are already superior to the P3 and P4 guys simply by the fact that they can summon Personas by concentrating alone.
3. Roshi's feat is a terrible example, because stronger characters of the series repeatedly show vastly inferior feats all the way to the Saiyan Saga. Yaldabaoth's feats are three: He has the powers of all the 7 sins. He stomps the main party before Satanael. He was going to fuse the Human World with the Metaworld. This is not contradictory.
4. Once again, it being humorous in nature has no bearing on the feat.
5. There is no reason to disagree with the ratings other than your personal opinion says that they can't be this strong.
I am completely against not having this be straigtht up 3-C.
@Kinky
1. It can't be an outlier given that there are similar special moves involving stars in the game, and Yaldabaoth's goal of fusing the whole Metaworld with the Human World (We see how big the Metaworld can be with Okumura's palace)
2. You haven't explained how it would be inconsistent for the cast to be Planet level. They are already superior to the P3 and P4 guys simply by the fact that they can summon Personas by concentrating alone.
3. Roshi's feat is a terrible example, because stronger characters of the series repeatedly show vastly inferior feats all the way to the Saiyan Saga. Yaldabaoth's feats are three: He has the powers of all the 7 sins. He stomps the main party before Satanael. He was going to fuse the Human World with the Metaworld. This is not contradictory.
4. Once again, it being humorous in nature has no bearing on the feat.
5. There is no reason to disagree with the ratings other than your personal opinion says that they can't be this strong.
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I for one support the compromise. I see no reason to have it be only one rating or the other when either seems to be equally likely, and it can just be changed if someone finds more information. I'm also fine with "3-C" if for no other reason than to be consistent with other JRPG ratings.
As for those 5 points,
1. I actually agree with this, assuming we can prove that Yaldabaoth's feat is universal and not just the planet. I'll actually look into the whole Okumura dungeon again when I get the chance.
2. This alone doesn't necessarily mean much. Just because they have an easier time summoning their personas, it doesn't automatically mean they're stronger. As for how it might mess up scaling, Shozo Irie brought up a good point earlier. Even if it isn't confirmed if there were to be another persona arena game that included the P5 cast fighting on even terms with the guys from 3 and 4, would we just accept it and scale them to 3-C as well?
3. Basically what I said for 1.
4. I actually never said/thought it was a gag feat, (just an outlier) and even if I did I wouldn't have argued against it's legitimacy.
5. This isn't really adressed at me (and also seems kinda irrelevant) so...
As for those 5 points,
1. I actually agree with this, assuming we can prove that Yaldabaoth's feat is universal and not just the planet. I'll actually look into the whole Okumura dungeon again when I get the chance.
2. This alone doesn't necessarily mean much. Just because they have an easier time summoning their personas, it doesn't automatically mean they're stronger. As for how it might mess up scaling, Shozo Irie brought up a good point earlier. Even if it isn't confirmed if there were to be another persona arena game that included the P5 cast fighting on even terms with the guys from 3 and 4, would we just accept it and scale them to 3-C as well?
3. Basically what I said for 1.
4. I actually never said/thought it was a gag feat, (just an outlier) and even if I did I wouldn't have argued against it's legitimacy.
5. This isn't really adressed at me (and also seems kinda irrelevant) so...
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I agree with what Ed said I think we need another pair of eyes on this. If we are not going to change our opinion we need to either. I think we need to highlight this for more input.
As for the compromise. At this point I am neutral I am worn out. I dont want to make myself on repeat
As for the compromise. At this point I am neutral I am worn out. I dont want to make myself on repeat
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Having the power of the seven sins doesn't make him 3 - C
Castle of Lust : Building level
Museum of Vanity: City block level
Bank of Gluttony: Between Multi-City block and Town level
Pyramid of Wrath: We don't see how big is Futaba's desert but if we count the town, the pyramid and the desert I think that it's at least Mountain level
Spaceport of Greed: Since it's the controversial one I will talk about it at the end
Casino of Jelousy: In my opinion the Casino represent Sae's distorted vision of Japan's judicial level and should be viewed as an small Country feat
Cruise of Pride: There are pieces of dialogue that suggest that Shido was going to use his knowledge of the Metaverse to expand to other countries so I see an small Continent feat in his defeat
Spaceport of Greed: Okumura's level is very different to the others. First I want to say that he is very weak as an enemy but he compensates by having a big army at his order.
Second he has a bigger imagination than Sae and Shido, and with all the visual references of his level to the Death Star from Star Wars so being very generous I can give him a Moon level feat. Altough as you can see in the natural progression of the game he should only deserve an Island level feat
Castle of Lust : Building level
Museum of Vanity: City block level
Bank of Gluttony: Between Multi-City block and Town level
Pyramid of Wrath: We don't see how big is Futaba's desert but if we count the town, the pyramid and the desert I think that it's at least Mountain level
Spaceport of Greed: Since it's the controversial one I will talk about it at the end
Casino of Jelousy: In my opinion the Casino represent Sae's distorted vision of Japan's judicial level and should be viewed as an small Country feat
Cruise of Pride: There are pieces of dialogue that suggest that Shido was going to use his knowledge of the Metaverse to expand to other countries so I see an small Continent feat in his defeat
Spaceport of Greed: Okumura's level is very different to the others. First I want to say that he is very weak as an enemy but he compensates by having a big army at his order.
Second he has a bigger imagination than Sae and Shido, and with all the visual references of his level to the Death Star from Star Wars so being very generous I can give him a Moon level feat. Altough as you can see in the natural progression of the game he should only deserve an Island level feat
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Not every series has to have a natural progression. Just because that makes sense does not mean it is right. And vice versa. I mean look a Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth as an example.
9-B| 7-B| Low 5-B| At least 2-A, likely High 2-A
So natural progression is not an argument. I agree with Matt.
9-B| 7-B| Low 5-B| At least 2-A, likely High 2-A
So natural progression is not an argument. I agree with Matt.
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@Shozo
"Natural progression" isn't an argument. Also, your argument is filled with double standards here. You are fine with using the Palace's size when they are visibly small but not when they are visibly large.
"Natural progression" isn't an argument. Also, your argument is filled with double standards here. You are fine with using the Palace's size when they are visibly small but not when they are visibly large.
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"Just because they have an easier time summoning their personas, it doesn't automatically mean they're stronger."
That alone would show that they are far better at summoning and controlling Personas. Coupled with the casual mid-game special moves being things that would utterly annihilated the Persona 3 and 4 cast, they are undoubtedly superior. And no, I wouldn't accept scaling from Crossover feats if they are contradicted by the main game. Unless you think all of Persona 2 is At least 2-A because the protagonist for Shin Megami Tensei IF is in the game.
That alone would show that they are far better at summoning and controlling Personas. Coupled with the casual mid-game special moves being things that would utterly annihilated the Persona 3 and 4 cast, they are undoubtedly superior. And no, I wouldn't accept scaling from Crossover feats if they are contradicted by the main game. Unless you think all of Persona 2 is At least 2-A because the protagonist for Shin Megami Tensei IF is in the game.
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@ Matt
Then why are we doing so for Persona 4? https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/704110
I for one don't think "natural progression" matters much. Rather, I just think that if we're going to take such a random feat (that would give an astronomical tier jump to the main characters) that the story itself glossed over and forgot, we should be looking a bit more into it rather than just accepting it as is. However if this is the usual standard for cases like this with JRPGs (meaning it happened in an animation that the story ignores AND would usually be an outlier) then it can't really be helped.
Then why are we doing so for Persona 4? https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/704110
I for one don't think "natural progression" matters much. Rather, I just think that if we're going to take such a random feat (that would give an astronomical tier jump to the main characters) that the story itself glossed over and forgot, we should be looking a bit more into it rather than just accepting it as is. However if this is the usual standard for cases like this with JRPGs (meaning it happened in an animation that the story ignores AND would usually be an outlier) then it can't really be helped.
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Because those feats are not contradicted? Plus the situations are different. Do they fight the protag?
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I can later.
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@Dragon
Aigis fights Elizabeth in the first Arena game and is stated to give her a challenge. Many of the P4 cast fights and even defeats Aigis in the same game. (Although Aigis' stats here are currently outdated and Elizabeth doesn't have a page) this would bump the Persona 4 cast from 7-C all the way to presumably High 6-A for no other reason than they fought somebody in a crossover game who was at that level. What makes it different if they do it again to the P5 characters?
@Ant
I can if I'm required but otherwise I'll leave it to somebody else.
Aigis fights Elizabeth in the first Arena game and is stated to give her a challenge. Many of the P4 cast fights and even defeats Aigis in the same game. (Although Aigis' stats here are currently outdated and Elizabeth doesn't have a page) this would bump the Persona 4 cast from 7-C all the way to presumably High 6-A for no other reason than they fought somebody in a crossover game who was at that level. What makes it different if they do it again to the P5 characters?
@Ant
I can if I'm required but otherwise I'll leave it to somebody else.
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1) P5 has not fought the P4 cast and such this point is meaningless.
2) We will handle such issues on a case-by-case basis and IF it happens. Nothing more.
3) Regarding this point. I specifically stated they scaled to 7-A and not High 6-A. And as Matt said above does it contradict their own game? No 7-A does not. 3-C does. Something that is not contradicted in P5 however.
2) We will handle such issues on a case-by-case basis and IF it happens. Nothing more.
3) Regarding this point. I specifically stated they scaled to 7-A and not High 6-A. And as Matt said above does it contradict their own game? No 7-A does not. 3-C does. Something that is not contradicted in P5 however.
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By the way.
I think that our Persona pages are garbage.
I think that our Persona pages are garbage.
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Yeah I noticed. We likely need a revision for the older titles sometime soon. Sadly my knowledge only goes from 4, Arena and 5.
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Yeah, one main problem with Persona pages is that many characters are scaled to other character who have no file.
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If they're from persona 3, I'll see if I can help, and maybe even make the required profiles, though I'd like a second or third opinion in case theres something I happen to overlook or am just blatantly wrong about. This is actually why I've refrained from doing so until now.
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I am assuming you are talking about Ryoji/Nyx from Persona 3, correct? That is a bit of an issue. Elizabeth and all the velvet room residents also probably deserve a page since they are masssively important to the story. Hell, even 3-C Igor can be argued now so he probably deserves a profile too.Dragonmasterxyz said:
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Why would Igor be 3-C? Is it because you want to scale him with the P5 cast? If so, since Igor appears in all the persona games, wouldn't it make more sense to scale him with the persona 2 cast since they have better feats?
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Edwellken said:
If you want a second opinion I will be happy to help. I've played all the Persona games but P3 is my favourite (maybe because it's the first one I've played)
By the way, Aigis is my favourite character and I didn't know that you made her page. I've tried to upgrade her page (with little result). If you want to take a look I would appreciate your comments:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/515770
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Honestly, Personas 3, 4 and 5 are more closely tied compared to 1 and 2.Aridwolverine said:
1 and 2 is closer to SMT compared to Persona.
That said, considering the Velvet Room exists outside the coventional universe and he did make his debut in 2, I am fine with universe level Igor.
But it would make little sense for him to be sealed by a boss who is at least 3-C and himself being Low 2-C.
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@Dragon and Matthew
I will be working on a Verse Page then if you do guys do not mind?
I think it is needed since the series has 5 games out now and it has officially dropped SMT from the name. It is now its own distinct franchise
Do you guys have any objections?
I will be working on a Verse Page then if you do guys do not mind?
I think it is needed since the series has 5 games out now and it has officially dropped SMT from the name. It is now its own distinct franchise
Do you guys have any objections?
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I don't mind personally.
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@ShozoShozo Irie said:
Your help would be greatly appreciated in that regard lol. 3 was also my first Persona game btw. As for the thread, I'll check it out when I get the chance but it might be better to make a new one since it already seems to be pretty old.
As for scaling Igor to the persona 2 cast, if he really is 2-C, Yaldabaoth would scale for sealing/defeating him, and 3-C persona 5 would make a whole lot more sense. I've only played 3, 4, 5, and Arena though so I personally can't attest to this.
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We cannot scale Velvet Room from 2 into 5.
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i...totally dont remember what make P2 Igor 2-C
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