Part 1 Naruto AP Revisions

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Yeah, it was redone by Alex and the result was only High 8-C.

 

[AstralKing7]

I think making profiles for characters who don't scale to the feat is a good idea

 

[Bruce_Reb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2ioatL6GkY

On the topic of Sasuke vs The Bear, and judging by the anime's depiction of that same moment. I doubt the calc highballs it in any shape or form, in fact - the given speed at which it's moving is 10mph, and by it's sheer size, I doubt it'd be -much- slower, since it's striding towards Karin pretty nonchalantly.

Also, he already has supporting 8-B feats from much earlier in the series. It feels irrelevant.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Most have agreed for vaporization on the fire ball feat and was discussed above, but we were still waiting on your input from before.

What evidences vaporization, for starters? I have not seen any concrete scans or statements that seem to support it, which is typically expected for vaporization feats.

Instead it seems that much of the arguments posed here are positing that vaporization is assumed, and needs to be contradicted and disproven, when it's actually something that needs to be proven first. And no, just because an attack is described as vaporizing people, doesn't mean that any other instances of the attack being used on other materials is also vaporization.

It also appears that much of the discussion on the matter was simply many of the supporters agreeing on it (with some explicitly recognizing my points but not responding to them), without much feedback to my critique of the vaporization assumption.

 

[AstralKing7]

An attack being said to vaporize which u read>

Statements are need to support vaporization for feats<

????

I'm legitimately confused here.

First of all it's a bigger assumption when you believe the attack doesn't vaporize when it's stated to do it. I'd rather not make more assumptions considering nothing is backing it up.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I've already explained that a guidebook saying it "vaporizes the target" doesn't mean that anything it hits within the story is vaporized. Typically we'd want statements that are specific to the feat in question, or at least the material the feat is being used on. "The target" could and most likely applies to the human it's typically being used to attack.

First of all it's a bigger assumption when you believe the attack doesn't vaporize when it's stated to do it. I'd rather not make more assumptions considering nothing is backing it up.

My issue is that the statement doesn't necessarily apply to this feat, and it's a large and somewhat unfounded assumption to use it as a blanket statement for any and all materials the attack hits.

And this is without going into what I pointed out in the blog in regards to contradictions, which wasn't properly responded to either above.

 

[M3X_2.0]

>I've already explained that a guidebook saying it "vaporizes the target" doesn't mean that anything it hits within the story is vaporized.

Dargoo, the statement is "The massive flame engulfs and vaporizes everything!!". It doesn't say ir vaporizes the target, but "everything".

 

[AstralKing7]

That's even better most definitely^.

I'm trying to see the problem going on here

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Dargoo, the statement is "The massive flame engulfs and vaporizes everything!!". It doesn't say ir vaporizes the target, but "everything".

Since we seem to be disagreeing on translation, providing the original scan/text would be very helpful right about now, and getting a few reliable translators too.

Even then, I'm not entirely sure how that changes my point. If anything, it makes the statement come off as hyperbolic/exaggerating, as obviously we aren't going to stipulate that the attack vaporizes anything it comes in contact to within the story.

 

[AstralKing7]

Hopefully ƒæîand comment on the general thread tomorrow and I'll make sure we wish you a happy birthday

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Since we seem to be disagreeing on translation, providing the original scan/text would be very helpful right about now, and getting a few reliable translators too.

Even then, I'm not entirely sure how that changes my point. If anything, it makes the statement come off as hyperbolic/exaggerating, as obviously we aren't going to stipulate that the attack vaporizes anything it comes in contact to within the story.

It is hyperbolic, yes, but it shows the clear intent that Fireball is supposed to vaporize things. When Sasuke uses it on the ground, except for what seems to be like debris, there's nothing resembling an explosion and a clear cut crater left after. We aren't gonna assume it can vaporize everything, that'd be taking things into the extreme, but to me that's a clear cut clue to lean for vaporization when it does indeed seem like vaporization.

When he uses it against Haku's ice mirrors, he mentions them not being even one bit melted, emphasizing again the effect of the heat.

As far as I can see, there's more indicating vaporization than not.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm not sure how you both admit it's hyperbolic and think it still applies as vaporization. A hyperbolic statement is a pretty poor board to dive into assumptions with.

It's pretty straightforward in the fact that it causes debris, and has a physical impact, giving credence to the idea that it's not only a heat based attack. What makes you think it's so indecisive in that regard?

And I'm not sure that we're looking at the same scan, if you're claiming there's "nothing resembling an explosion".

When he uses it against Haku's ice mirrors, he mentions them not being even one bit melted, emphasizing again the effect of the heat.

As far as I can see, there's more indicating vaporization than not.

This is just a reminder that attacks can have heat and force based components. It'd be very silly of me to say a fire-based attack isn't going to at least give off a significant amount of heat.

I'm not sure what else the ice mirror example establishes other than the attack has a heat component which couldn't melt it; which is fairly obvious and not contested on this thread.

I'd also like to conclude here by asking again for the original text of the guidebook scan, since this presumption relies entirely on the translation of a hyperbolic statement, which we still haven't reached a solid conclusion on it's exact wording yet.

 

[Damage3245]

I believe this is the raw page of the databook.

There is no official translation for it as far as I'm aware, the only English translation I've seen online is this one. Larger bold text on the right of the page highlighted in bold:

"The massive flame engulfs and vaporizes everything!!

A jutsu where the chakra kneaded inside the body is converted into fire, and expelled forward in a massive orb of roaring flame. The scope of the attack is altered by controlling the volume of chakra that is mustered. The blazes, released with a thunderous roar will engulf their target, and leave a crater on the ground's surface. That's how terrifying they are…!!

The seals to activate it are Horse and Tiger. Sasuke already has the skill to handle that advanced technique."

 

[AstralKing7]

Sasuke's Fire style heat>>Naruto's Chakra which gives off heat literally. Naruto's Heat didn't melt the ice. Sasukes did. It's obvious Sasuke's Fire style gives off more than just a significant amount of heat

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Because the hyperbole is that it can vaporize all, not that it can vaporize at all. Obviously Sasuke can't vaporize whoever he pleases with it, but it is directly acknowledged it can vaporize things.

Why is it clearly dirt? Except for the patches of leaves, all of it looks the same. Which is relevant when you notice the ground breaking like rock as Kakashi emerges from it and buries Sasuke. Compare and contrast as well the holes Neji and Naruto end up i, which are drawn very different and are obviously dirt. Ther very same chapter then shows Naruto exploding out from a part of the floor that is pure rock, contrasting even better how differently he draws rock and dirt.

The only debris I can see are the ones near the explosion, that are entirely nowhere to be seen despite not being kicked up into the air and the fact we get a clear shot of the surroundings. When used agains Haku, there's no explosive effect and more or less behaves like a normal fireball. Or like when Sasuke's father first shows it to him. Or when Sasuke uses it after. Both cases have barely a ripple from the water below and maybe some blown air, which is normal with that much heat suddenly being spewed out. Not even when he battles Narutolater o is it treated like an explosion.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I believe this is the raw page of the databook.

There is no official translation for it as far as I'm aware

That's a bit of an issue. I'm sending this over to some of our translators to confirm what it's saying, thanks.

Because the hyperbole is that it can vaporize all, not that it can vaporize at all. Obviously Sasuke can't vaporize whoever he pleases with it, but it is directly acknowledged it can vaporize things.

So the most you can extrapolate is that he can vaporize things with the attack, and nothing in specific. That... doesn't let you say much in the context of this feat.

It namely doesn't let you jump to the assumption that anything destroyed by the attack is vaporized, if we're following logic here. If you're acknowledging the hyperbole can't be interpreted to mean he can actually vaporize anything, that means we still need specific evidence for the feat we're looking at, and shouldn't assume without non-hyperbolic statements supporting it.

Why is it clearly dirt?

• There's an abundance of grass and foliage growing all over the ground in close-up shots, just look at a few of the closer-up scans you linked yourself. Grass generally has a very hard time growing on pure stone, and it certainly doesn't look like lichen or some kind of algae.
• Dirt, heck, even mud can crack and break like in this sca. Dirt is a pretty versatile substance, and can have a variety of textures, and break in a variety of fashions. It's also extremely common for dirt to be drawn in this way when breaking since it's much easier in general.

So I'm still not really convinced it's stone. If there's an official colored version of this manga that might settle our discussion, unless the coloring is vague as well.

When used agains Haku, <snip>

Nearly all of the scans you posted show signs of physical impact. It's especially apparent in this one where it seems to kick up and impact the ground, here, where it sends ripples in the water it's hitting, and here where you can see signs that the ground under it is being impacted by it.

Even in real life, heck, fire can kick up and move large quantities of materials that can become airborne like dirt and dust (most notably ash).

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It does say that the attack has enough heat to be able to vaporize things, which lends the credence that it could be vaporization, I am not really saying it inherently means it must be. And I am not simply jumping to the conclusion. The debris you pointed out literally disappear entirely despite not being blasted off or anything. And the attack has shown many times, many of those used by Sasuke, to not be treated as an explosion in any way, with the biggest effects it causes just as easily being shifting of air currents from the sudden introduction of so much heat over a big area.

... really? Saying as someone that has been to construction sites a lot due to an architect dad, I've never seen such small chunks of dirt crack apart into such solid bits.

Am pretty sure the others sould be able to find scans from the colorized version, which does exist, but I can't help in that area.

The first scan you bring up is on a lake, not the ground, and I can't really see said impact. Is simply traveling above it. For the second, ripples could easily be made by the shifting of air from such a sudden amount of heat less than a meter above the lake. Small ripples isn't really comparable at all to an explosion cracking literal rock, or dirt, into debris. I don't really see how this is Fairy Tail fire that punches more than it burns.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

The "Konoha Crush" and "Chuunin Exam" Keys should be fused together.

 

[Bruce_Reb]

The "Konoha Crush" and "Chuunin Exam" Keys should be fused together.

Not necessarily. Since one can easily be before the month training grace period (during which a big part of the cast powers up and gains significant abilities), and the other corresponding to the finals and the Konoha Crush, which takes place during the same day.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Agreed with Bruce.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Their Konoha Key will start from their training until the 3rd Hokages death.

 

[CaptainSparkz]

But Naruto is Low 7-C for damaging partial transformed Gaara, this fight happens before the 3rd homage dies

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

The fights are going on at the same time.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Just to summarize, how would the keys look by your proposal?

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Pre-Chunnin Exams | Chuunin Exams | Sasuke Retrieval | One-Tailed Naruto

 

[CaptainSparkz]

Just to be sure Chunin Exams Naruto would be Low 7-C, Higher with Kyuubi Chakra.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Yes.

 

[Bruce_Reb]

I don't understand why we're ruling out the post-training/konoha crush key. Naruto has had two instances of powering up between the Forest of Death and the Sasuke Retrieval arc.

He's 8-B during the opening of the chunnin exams, the entirety of the forest of death, the preeliminary rounds, THEN the month of training happens, then he comes back Low 7-C and beats Neji in the final part, Gaara during the Konoha Crush and whatnot.

Then there's the Tsunade arc, where he gets the 7-C Rasengan (this is the same Naruto that goes onto the Sasuke Retrieval).

I feel like the summarization in the keys is not functional, since the characters undergo too many changes.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I'll have to reread Part one again as there seems to be things i forgot.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I'll have to reread Part one again as there seems to be things i forgot.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

There's no need for a key for him looking for Tsunade. That can simply be Post Chunin Exams or Post Invasion, whatever, as the only change is his gaining of Rasengan.

But it is still true that Preliminaries Naruto and Finals/Invasion Naruto are very different in power.

What comes to mind is this:

Pre-Chunnin Exams l Chunnin Exam Preliminaries I Chunnin Exam Finals/Konoha Invasio l Sasuke Retrieval

The One-Tail doesn't need a key, just stating his base, KN0 and One Tail rating in his Sasuke Retrieval key works.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

That looks good.

EDIT: Now that i think about it, i'm not sure about the Chunnin Exam Preliminaries key. Nothing changes between the forest of death and the Preliminaries.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If you think it can be reworded, I don't mind. I just mean it to encompass everything after they get back from Wave and until the training period for the finals.

I thought preliminaries worked simply because that's where most of the main fighting before Finals happens.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Do you mean for it to also include the forest of death?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Yes. Pretty much the entirety of the chunnin exam except the finals after the month of training and the subsequent invasion.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Ah, ok then thats fine with me, i though you just meant the Preliminaries.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Is alright. Is just weird finding a good way to name it so the meaning gets across but isn't unnecessarily long.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Yeah, the name messed me up a bit. I'll start making the sandbox with the new keys in a bit.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Is good tackling Dargoo's issues as well with the fireball calc if you have anything to say, will be what decides what calc to link and the tier.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I'm not really sure what else there is to say about that.