Overwhelming Muscle vs Overwhelming Metal. Zangief vs Guts!

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Can Gut's cleave the Cyclone in two??? Or will the Wrestling Champion piledrive him six feet under?


Guts (End of Golden Age)

Zangief

Speed is equalized.

 

[CrackerVolley]

Alright, first thing first: Zangief has a 2.5x AP advantage against Guts (0.10 tons vs 0.04 tons), which is definitely useful.

Gief also possesses a massive LS advantage over Guts, granting him a rather attainable win condition by restraining or literally just leaving Guts stuck in the ground a la Bolshoi Russian Suplex. Guts is basically screwed if he ends up in arms reach.

How willing is Golden Age Guts to abuse his ranged options? I know he has a few tricks, but is he usually just more willing to use Dragonslayer? Also, is there any ammo restrictions we should know about. Zangeif kinda actually has a good counter zoning game thanks to Green Ha- I mean, Banishing Flat (a chi technique he uses to swat away projectiles) and the Ruler's Staying Hand (a weird technique where he can project damaging vibrations from his muscles that can apparently go up to 12,000 km - which slightly less than the equatorial diameter of the Earth, although he's likely not as prone to use this one).

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

The Durability advantage is actually even higher than that. Zangief's muscles are powerful enough to endure a direct punch from Balrog with no visible damage. Balrog himself being able to overwhelm two characters who scale to the 9-A value mentioned above. So Gut's may need to rely on cutting Zangief in vulnerable/less protected areas of his body to deal significant damage.

I'm sure someone with more knowledge of Berserk could give a better response, but Gut's will certainly resort to using his crossbow and cannon if he deems it necessary. On top of this, even in a close-quarters encounter, Demonslayer itself is several meters long, and he can swing it as freely as any normal sword. Meaning he definitely has a good chance of keeping Gief out of grabbing range.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Bump

 

[SamanPatou]

Imma be honest, Guts should have this in the bag.
Zangief has indeed higher stats, but Guts has just been through much more shit in his journey, between a lifetime spent as a gifted soldier and several encounters with demons, even at this point.

Guts has already faced opponents stronger than him before (death battles ptsd kicks in) and more or less always came out on top.
The Dragonslayer is far too durable for Zangief to destroy, and while he can would surely repell it, that sword even do some real damage if landed correctly, since it upscales from his value, even though Zangief is 2x+ more durable.
Guts is also known for working on weak spots, is a great strategist and overall outranged Zangief in many ways. Not to say Zangief doesn't have options, but Guts isn't that easy to keep at bay. Arrows and daggers wouldn't probably do much, but he aimed at open and weak spots before, and knows when to use weak weaponry and we don't.
Guts has also far more stamina and endurance, has come up with ways to deal with grips, usually thanks to his hand cannon. Toss in there enhanced senses, analytical prediction and all the great skill feats he has even at this point, and I think he would take it most of the times.

Zangief isn't by far a slouch, surely a tough bone to gnaw to can put his can pair his advantages, great skills and experience at good use, supported by his ability to sense one's strength and recognize a swordsman's prowess fro mere stance, but I don't see him tipping the scales in terms of probabilities.

Interestingly enough, since the times of "willing to kill" are far gone, both wouldn't go for the kill. Zangief doesn't do that and Guts isn't a murderer. The two would find themselves in agreement and put up a good fight, considering that both are willing to sustain damage if needed.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Alright, first thing first: Zangief has a 2.5x AP advantage against Guts (0.10 tons vs 0.04 tons), which is definitely useful.

Gief also possesses a massive LS advantage over Guts, granting him a rather attainable win condition by restraining or literally just leaving Guts stuck in the ground a la Bolshoi Russian Suplex. Guts is basically screwed if he ends up in arms reach.

How willing is Golden Age Guts to abuse his ranged options? I know he has a few tricks, but is he usually just more willing to use Dragonslayer? Also, is there any ammo restrictions we should know about. Zangeif kinda actually has a good counter zoning game thanks to Green Ha- I mean, Banishing Flat (a chi technique he uses to swat away projectiles) and the Ruler's Staying Hand (a weird technique where he can project damaging vibrations from his muscles that can apparently go up to 12,000 km - which slightly less than the equatorial diameter of the Earth, although he's likely not as prone to use this one).

Guts with Dragon Slayer upscales heavily from 0.10 tons, as he was able to AP stomp an Apostle he was fighting evenly with a regular greatsword. His Arm Cannon also upscales, as he also AP stomped said Apostle with it as well. So he has AP advantage in this match, but comes up short on durability, albeit he is in his first iteration Black Swordsman armor, which may be comparable to his second version which is 8-A dura

He tends to open up at range with his crossbow, then throwing knives, then goes into melee with Dragon Slayer. He uses his Cannon Arm as a hidden finisher.

Gief's projectile null will make whittling him down from distance basically a non-option, so that could be problematic for Guts, and Ruler's Staying Hand could be a massive annoyance

 

[CrackerVolley]

Hm. I'm gonna give myself more time to think things through before making a vote.

 

[SamanPatou]

We can't say that Guts has an ap advantage simply because the Dragonslayer and cannon upscale to 0.04 by an unknow margin, and without multipliers we can't establish a real value.

That said, I do agree they should be able to deal some damage when landing in the right spot or right moment.

Same goes for his dura, we can't say it's 8-A, as it's not on his file.
The progression of strength in berserk isn't super clear, but there's room for it nonetheless, aside from the fact this Guts wasn't on his future self's level even by narrative purposes.

Anyway, just to be sure, I vote Guts.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

The man wielding a refrigerator door FRA

 

[SheevShezarrine]

We can't say that Guts has an ap advantage simply because the Dragonslayer and cannon upscale to 0.04 by an unknow margin, and without multipliers we can't establish a real value.

That said, I do agree they should be able to deal some damage when landing in the right spot or right moment.

Same goes for his dura, we can't say it's 8-A, as it's not on his file.
The progression of strength in berserk isn't super clear, but there's room for it nonetheless, aside from the fact this Guts wasn't on his future self's level even by narrative purposes.

Anyway, just to be sure, I vote Guts.

Guts was dealing only moderate damage with a standard (actually ~3x bigger than average) greatsword, then with his cannon sprayed the aforementioned Apostle's innards all over the place, before cleaving it in half length-wise with Dragon Slayer. They are absolutely multiple times stronger than his normal AP. As for his armor, I won't outright go so far as to say it's 8-A, but it gives his natural 9-A dura (which is superior to his AP) a notable boost

 

[azontr]

Same goes for his dura, we can't say it's 8-A, as it's not on his file.

Dragon Slayer doesn't have a page. So it's durability cannot be listed on Guts' profile. But it has shown to be able to take attacks from 8-A characters.

Anyways, Guts FRA.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Dragon Slayer doesn't have a page. So it's durability cannot be listed on Guts' profile. But it has shown to be able to take attacks from 8-A characters.

Anyways, Guts FRA.

Tbf the Dragon Slayer you're thinking of got enchanted by a shitton of demon innards and gained the ability to harm souls and atp was harder than corundum dragon scales which were noted to be much harder than steel. So Dragon Slayer may have gotten a dura boost by the time of Conviction + Millenium Falcon Arc

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Dragonslayer's durability is 8-A yes, as noted by his profile, but his armor isn't. At least for this match, anyone who thinks otherwise can go through the CRT process.

Anyway, 3 Gut's votes rn If I'm counting correctly.

 

[SamanPatou]

Guts was dealing only moderate damage with a standard (actually ~3x bigger than average) greatsword, then with his cannon sprayed the aforementioned Apostle's innards all over the place, before cleaving it in half length-wise with Dragon Slayer. They are absolutely multiple times stronger than his normal AP. As for his armor, I won't outright go so far as to say it's 8-A, but it gives his natural 9-A dura (which is superior to his AP) a notable boost

By wiki rules (and even my personal opinion tbh) we can talk about precise numbers either by calcs or sure sources like multiplier. Afaik nothing in berserk gives the sword any precise value nor there are statements about it being a set times stronger than Guts's own strength.
The same thing could be said about Zangief tanking Balrog's punch or being praised by Ken, who already upscales from one-hit KOing another 9-A, for having a chin that "feels more like iron than flesh" to him.
Upscaling without precise infos must always be taken as last value+

The Dragonslayer's dura is already listed on Guts's profile, it's at least 8-A for sure out of pure showings.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Guts FRA

 

[SheevShezarrine]

By wiki rules (and even my personal opinion tbh) we can talk about precise numbers either by calcs or sure sources like multiplier. Afaik nothing in berserk gives the sword any precise value nor there are statements about it being a set times stronger than Guts's own strength.
The same thing could be said about Zangief tanking Balrog's punch or being praised by Ken, who already upscales from one-hit KOing another 9-A, for having a chin that "feels more like iron than flesh" to him.
Upscaling without precise infos must always be taken as last value+

The Dragonslayer's dura is already listed on Guts's profile, it's at least 8-A for sure out of pure showings.

Iirc I didn't say anything about it being stronger than Guts inherently, I said it's considerably stronger than more practically proportioned greatswords when either is wielded by Guts.
I also don't believe I said anything about precise numbers or multipliers, I simply said that Dragon Slayer and cannon could aptly be described as doing several times more damage than Guts's previous sword.
The Apostle ate so many hits from Guts's regular greatsword that the sword eventually snapped from a combination of Guts's strength and the Apostle's durability. Whereas Dragon Slayer + cannon effortlessly two-shotted it (an additional showing is that the cannon recoil dislocated Guts's shoulder, who as previously stated has more inherent dura than inherent AP)
Thus, Dragon Slayer and cannon >> standard equipment
And knowing a bit more about Gief's scaling chain is good, plus balances things out since he has a no-sell feat against someone who can OHKO a 9-A