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Our Umineko/When They Cry Problem
- Thread starter Sera_EX
- Start date
- Status
Ovy7
He/Him- 2,629
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From what I've seen, there are already 2 different threads about the 1A Umineko, so people can give those a look.
Also, if it's any help, I already have made 3 respect threads for Umineko, one for Battler , one for Beatrice , and one with most of the Ushiromiyas , though those have only scans from Umineko and Tsubasa.
Also, if it's any help, I already have made 3 respect threads for Umineko, one for Battler , one for Beatrice , and one with most of the Ushiromiyas , though those have only scans from Umineko and Tsubasa.
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This is just an analogy. I'm talking about context. Poles, layers, domains, internal complexity of layers, hierarchies. What is the current opinion about these things? People even understand what I mean by these terms? (I'm not sure how these things were translated)
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@DarkLK
Here's the thing:
People question things like the Voyagers being 1-A when the only evidence of shut is a fan-made chart and your own word.
Let alone they being so unbeatable in their own tier like you say they are.
A lot of other things that have little to no explanations on profiles and threads are also questioned.
Ultimately, people have extreme doubts about the current ratings. This includes people who played and know the games like Sera EX, Promestein, and ALRF. If revisions are to occur, it is very likely that your ratings and opinions will be superceded and the profiles altered / downgrade if you are unable to back up concrete evidence in the form of scans.
This isn't a case of users being against you as a person, nor ignorance from the part of users other than yourself, nor a case of bad translations or an incomplete picture of the franchise. These are legitimate, valid complaints and questions from those who enjoy the WtC franchise, and doubt the veracity of how it is currently handled on the wiki.
Here's the thing:
People question things like the Voyagers being 1-A when the only evidence of shut is a fan-made chart and your own word.
Let alone they being so unbeatable in their own tier like you say they are.
A lot of other things that have little to no explanations on profiles and threads are also questioned.
Ultimately, people have extreme doubts about the current ratings. This includes people who played and know the games like Sera EX, Promestein, and ALRF. If revisions are to occur, it is very likely that your ratings and opinions will be superceded and the profiles altered / downgrade if you are unable to back up concrete evidence in the form of scans.
This isn't a case of users being against you as a person, nor ignorance from the part of users other than yourself, nor a case of bad translations or an incomplete picture of the franchise. These are legitimate, valid complaints and questions from those who enjoy the WtC franchise, and doubt the veracity of how it is currently handled on the wiki.
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Wasn't what I was doing in my post, nor my point in the slightest. What I say is that people question his own interpretations of the setting directly, as they have insufficient evidence in the profiles other than his own word on Vsthreads.Antvasima said:
Ring a bell?
A6Colute did the exact same thing with I/O, until eventually people got tired of hearing it and revised the verse without him. And I commend them for that.
My point that, given our now two-years and ongoing history with Umineko being in a unsatisfactory state with users questioning the information on the profiles, and the fact that nothing has been done in that time, it is very likely that to move forward and revise the profiles we cannot rely on DarkLK, who in the opinion of many is becoming increasingly unreliable.
You constantly complain to me whenever I'm unable to participate in revisions, even if they are for verses I don't like and specific characters I don't know in those verses. And yet you defend DarkLK's inactivity at every turn. I find that strange and a little unfair.
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I am just saying that it is best to give him a chance and collaborate with him first. If that does not work out, you likely have a point, but so far he has simply been patiently waiting a lot, first for TheMightyRegulator and then for Azathoth.
He has also made clear from the start that his foremost responsibility is the ACF wiki. His role in this one is strictly as a consultant, due to being nice enough to help us out anyway.
He has also made clear from the start that his foremost responsibility is the ACF wiki. His role in this one is strictly as a consultant, due to being nice enough to help us out anyway.
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The burden of proof ought to be on DarkLK to prove that the verse is as powerful as he claims, not ours to debunk something with little concrete evidence.
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I dont know why all these agressive issues are appearing but i dont think its fair to just nerf the verse or rush Dark because of a bunch of VS threads
Darklk has been reading multiple VNs off of 07th expansion.
translating, getting citations, heck reading the creator of uminekos diary and doing all he can to truly understand the verse
Iirc, there are 10 or more VNS that all connect to WTC,
Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (VN and manga) Umineko no Naku Koro ni (VN and manga) Ougon Musou Kyoku (fighting game) Higanbana no Saku Yoru ni (VN and manga) Rose Guns Days (VN and manga) Hotarubi no Tomoru Koro ni (manga) Renai Harem Game Shuuryou no Oshirase ga kuru Koro ni (manga) TRianThology ~Sanmenkyou no Kuni no Alice~ (VN and manga) Rewrite (VN and anime) Iwaihime (VN) Kamaitachi no Yoru Ring Spirit (VN) Ookami Kakushi (VN) Soshite Anata wa Kaidan de Odoru (manga) 07th Theater (VN)
i dont think its fair how we are rushing one or two guys who are doing their best to study these immense, hundreds of hour long books aswell as multiple other games and manga.
I honestly dont know why theres such a rush. Please just grant him more time
Darklk has been reading multiple VNs off of 07th expansion.
translating, getting citations, heck reading the creator of uminekos diary and doing all he can to truly understand the verse
Iirc, there are 10 or more VNS that all connect to WTC,
Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (VN and manga) Umineko no Naku Koro ni (VN and manga) Ougon Musou Kyoku (fighting game) Higanbana no Saku Yoru ni (VN and manga) Rose Guns Days (VN and manga) Hotarubi no Tomoru Koro ni (manga) Renai Harem Game Shuuryou no Oshirase ga kuru Koro ni (manga) TRianThology ~Sanmenkyou no Kuni no Alice~ (VN and manga) Rewrite (VN and anime) Iwaihime (VN) Kamaitachi no Yoru Ring Spirit (VN) Ookami Kakushi (VN) Soshite Anata wa Kaidan de Odoru (manga) 07th Theater (VN)
i dont think its fair how we are rushing one or two guys who are doing their best to study these immense, hundreds of hour long books aswell as multiple other games and manga.
I honestly dont know why theres such a rush. Please just grant him more time
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You say so, as if I had created some pages without evidence. But it is not. Or as if I urge someone to put some ratings without evidence. But it is not. I am not even interested in this. Moreover, I even argue with those who tried to raise the ratings without sufficient reason (wave funtion etc).
Again. Let those people who allegedly disagree with me say exactly how they themselves see cosmology and ratings and why so. I can not argue with someone's opinion, if I do not even know this opinion.
Again. Let those people who allegedly disagree with me say exactly how they themselves see cosmology and ratings and why so. I can not argue with someone's opinion, if I do not even know this opinion.
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You probably don't understand.
The matter adressed here is that no verse in the whole wiki should get the treatment of "First they get the tier and ratings, then they get the evidence/blogs/CRTS."
It's not like that for any verse whatsoever so as much as I love WTC it shouldn't be like that for it either.
The order is inverted. It's not up to the side questioning it to prove that it's not that tier, and take only the word of users - ANY user, regardless of position or status. - as matter of fact. This situation, in essence, is absolutely no different from a staff member making a claim as absurd as "DBS is actually 1-A based on this obscure Guidebook I have, but you will have to leave it at that tier based on my word alone and waith months, eventually over a year before I bring the evidence."
The matter of fact is that evidence and proper scans from within the work that support the immense scaling the series currently has are nowhere to be seen so the wiki has been taking word in Threads as we would usually take WORD OF GOD.
That's not how it works. It has never been this way for any verse - "I said this means x". You then bring the evidence and others interpret it as well. IF that evidence is proper, even someone who knows next to nothing of the verse will understand and agree with the others who do understand for the most part. I know verses where people who aren't familiar at all with the Cosmology agree with the ratings based on them having blogs with updated scans and such.
Either a verse shows the evidence, or it doesn't get a tier. I won't show favoritism on this matter despite Umineko being extremely up in my list of favorite verses because by now, I too feel like it has been getting ridiculously special treatment. As that has also been a problem now, at the very least, it should be removed from VS Threads until this matter of the evidence, blogs, CRTs, what gives is properly resolved.
The matter adressed here is that no verse in the whole wiki should get the treatment of "First they get the tier and ratings, then they get the evidence/blogs/CRTS."
It's not like that for any verse whatsoever so as much as I love WTC it shouldn't be like that for it either.
The order is inverted. It's not up to the side questioning it to prove that it's not that tier, and take only the word of users - ANY user, regardless of position or status. - as matter of fact. This situation, in essence, is absolutely no different from a staff member making a claim as absurd as "DBS is actually 1-A based on this obscure Guidebook I have, but you will have to leave it at that tier based on my word alone and waith months, eventually over a year before I bring the evidence."
The matter of fact is that evidence and proper scans from within the work that support the immense scaling the series currently has are nowhere to be seen so the wiki has been taking word in Threads as we would usually take WORD OF GOD.
That's not how it works. It has never been this way for any verse - "I said this means x". You then bring the evidence and others interpret it as well. IF that evidence is proper, even someone who knows next to nothing of the verse will understand and agree with the others who do understand for the most part. I know verses where people who aren't familiar at all with the Cosmology agree with the ratings based on them having blogs with updated scans and such.
Either a verse shows the evidence, or it doesn't get a tier. I won't show favoritism on this matter despite Umineko being extremely up in my list of favorite verses because by now, I too feel like it has been getting ridiculously special treatment. As that has also been a problem now, at the very least, it should be removed from VS Threads until this matter of the evidence, blogs, CRTs, what gives is properly resolved.
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Why the hell do the Umineko Blogs / Pages link to Coston's Respect Thread and to an ACF article asking you to use Google Translate, btw?
It's stuff like this that makes people not trust on the verse's ratings. VBW should be self-sufficient and accesible to an english-speaking audience.
It's stuff like this that makes people not trust on the verse's ratings. VBW should be self-sufficient and accesible to an english-speaking audience.
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Stop trying to present the situation as if I'm trying to give someone some high tiers, but I don't want to prove anything. I don't touch any pages at all. I am waiting for the person who will start the revision. If someone starts doing this, I can add something.
If this is a question for me, then I do not know. I have always said that wikis should work independently without regard to other resources.Matthew Schroeder said:
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@AntDarkLK said:
You're going to hear from the guy himself. We absolutely don't need to wait for DarkLK to start anything, or even begin working with him, his own word. Prom, Sera, ALRF and who else should just start a revision independently. If DarkLK wishes to manifest himself then, he will.
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@DLK If that first part was for me, I didn't even mention whatever tiers they're at as much as I mentioned that any tier for any verse should get the evidence/blog/CRT/revisions done with before being treated as true anywhere in the wiki hence it's not common sense for it to work the other way around for WTC.
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FateAlbane said:
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If scans are a must, then it makes sense as to why this is happening
Good luck @Darklk
Good luck @Darklk
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Can I ask a question as an outsider?
Why can't we do like we do for every other series and make a revision then. If DarkLK disagrees, he can comment there and post scans there. Just because someone makes the initial revision thread doesn't mean counterclaims cannot change the course of the thread. Why give Umineko/When They Cry special treatment when they have blatantly lacked the sufficient evidence all this time, despite numerous opportunities to provide it? This is blatant bias and blatant special treatment. No offense to DarkLK, but his involvement or not should not be what makes a Revision accurate or not.
Not to mention the actions towards Salut was by no means something a consultant should have showcased. We assumed that he was a troll because he disagreed. But, not once was he rightfully given the scans he deserved. We had Bob accuse him of being a downplayer (with no backing but we chose to reprimand Salut when Bob basically started that mess of a thread), DarkLK accuse him of being a troll and Ant accusing him of being a troll, calling him a nuisance and threatening to ban him for disagreeing. But yet...no real evidence was shown. But because DarkLK was a consultant, it was called trolling because he went against "one of our most respected members". This is BS. Aren't we trying to fight off allegations that we don't put ones word on a higher pedestal than another person's? Is this not a blatant contradiction of what we say is the case? Our actions don't match what we say.
Simply put, we have someone make a revision with their own evidence, DarkLK comments, accurate stats will then be put on the profiles after both sides argue and find a conclusion. Just like other revisions. Umineko/WTC is not so special that it is exempt from this formula. And I also would appreciate if we stop treating DarkLK as the god of Umineko and the only one who can competently handle the verse as it is frankly annoying and blatant favoritism. No respect intended, but this is something that has bothered me. DarkLK himself has stated that we don't need him to start a revision.
Why can't we do like we do for every other series and make a revision then. If DarkLK disagrees, he can comment there and post scans there. Just because someone makes the initial revision thread doesn't mean counterclaims cannot change the course of the thread. Why give Umineko/When They Cry special treatment when they have blatantly lacked the sufficient evidence all this time, despite numerous opportunities to provide it? This is blatant bias and blatant special treatment. No offense to DarkLK, but his involvement or not should not be what makes a Revision accurate or not.
Not to mention the actions towards Salut was by no means something a consultant should have showcased. We assumed that he was a troll because he disagreed. But, not once was he rightfully given the scans he deserved. We had Bob accuse him of being a downplayer (with no backing but we chose to reprimand Salut when Bob basically started that mess of a thread), DarkLK accuse him of being a troll and Ant accusing him of being a troll, calling him a nuisance and threatening to ban him for disagreeing. But yet...no real evidence was shown. But because DarkLK was a consultant, it was called trolling because he went against "one of our most respected members". This is BS. Aren't we trying to fight off allegations that we don't put ones word on a higher pedestal than another person's? Is this not a blatant contradiction of what we say is the case? Our actions don't match what we say.
Simply put, we have someone make a revision with their own evidence, DarkLK comments, accurate stats will then be put on the profiles after both sides argue and find a conclusion. Just like other revisions. Umineko/WTC is not so special that it is exempt from this formula. And I also would appreciate if we stop treating DarkLK as the god of Umineko and the only one who can competently handle the verse as it is frankly annoying and blatant favoritism. No respect intended, but this is something that has bothered me. DarkLK himself has stated that we don't need him to start a revision.
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Exactly. And every time I say that I'm not even going to do anything myself. Someone should create own explanation and if I have additional information, then I provide it. Then it must be accepted or not accepted and someone (not me) edits the pages. It's all.FateAlbane said:
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@Matthew
Well, if Promestein and Sera wish to create a content revision thread and invite DarkLK to participate, I suppose that might be an idea. I just don't want any of the information that he has access to to be overlooked.
Well, if Promestein and Sera wish to create a content revision thread and invite DarkLK to participate, I suppose that might be an idea. I just don't want any of the information that he has access to to be overlooked.
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Let's elect some people to get started then and Dark cam comment if they missed anything. We need to get all of the evidence in one place and then analyze it.
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Well, it's not "just" Prom-sama and Sera-Dono
but the entire community who help to the revision
but the entire community who help to the revision
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- Thread starter
- #195
Let's seriously stop accusing people on all fronts here. Here's what I, the OP, want.
I want the Umineko cosmology explained right now. Yes fammade charts are acceptable so long as there is context supported from the games with scans and so forth. Then we will determine if it is applicable and Prom can update the pages accordingly.
I want the cosmology explained using in-universe material. That's all.
Anyone is allowed to prove the cosmology is as it has been stated to be in some threads. I just want to see it proved with scans fron Higurashi, Umineko, TriAnthology, or anything else that provides the evidence. DarkLK so far is the only one who stated willingness to actually provide context to anything we find.
Stop the political mudslinging and start doing something constructive, please. Thank you.
I want the Umineko cosmology explained right now. Yes fammade charts are acceptable so long as there is context supported from the games with scans and so forth. Then we will determine if it is applicable and Prom can update the pages accordingly.
I want the cosmology explained using in-universe material. That's all.
Anyone is allowed to prove the cosmology is as it has been stated to be in some threads. I just want to see it proved with scans fron Higurashi, Umineko, TriAnthology, or anything else that provides the evidence. DarkLK so far is the only one who stated willingness to actually provide context to anything we find.
Stop the political mudslinging and start doing something constructive, please. Thank you.
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@Sera
Well, I think that given the previous accusatory tone of this thread, and that we have reached a conclusion to start a revision, it has likely served its purpose, and it would be better to close this and start a new thread that strictly handles the topic of the actual revision in a matter of fact manner, rather than talking about the revision and making accusations.
Well, I think that given the previous accusatory tone of this thread, and that we have reached a conclusion to start a revision, it has likely served its purpose, and it would be better to close this and start a new thread that strictly handles the topic of the actual revision in a matter of fact manner, rather than talking about the revision and making accusations.
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i don't know on how the city of books and chapel or the game boards got their dimension numbers because i frankly can't remember anything stating its specific number. I also remember the sea of nothingness being a literal void but not much to it. I just remember smth about erika able to still think down there and normally ppl falling in there cannot remember their form and such. idk just giving what ik and not sure what i sort of means
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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:VenomElite/When_They_Cry_CosmologyTISSG7Redgrave said:
- Status
