Our rules regarding composite profiles (Staff only)

[Andytrenom]

If it's a general RPG standard I guess I can understand, but treating species profiles as a genetic lottery theoretical character like I'm being told is a bad thing in my opinion

"i am also in disagreement with species file not being usable in vs battles as well."

I'm fine with species profiles being used when an average member of the species can be concieved, it is only when that is impossible such as when the abilities and behavior vary heavily on an individual to individual basis, that I have a problem.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I guess we have to make a distinction of what makes Pokemon and Digimon files different from regular "species" files. I can explain Digimon well enough, but Pokemon i cannot say for sure seeing as I've disconnected myself from that one and thus my knowledge on all the small details has kinda....vanished...

Regardless, I think that some exceptions should be noted and explained so that users can get the full context behind the reasoning behind the exception.

 

[Moritzva]

The fact that we make an exception for Pokemon species because they are in an RPG does always provoke me a tad on the subject of how we treat certain RPG/similar game characters having their entire moveset at once, even when it doesn't make sense (wearing tons of gear and using tons of items beyond what they can really carry).

But PMD's example with Brozong is reasonable and gives reasonable grounds to having such, so Pokemon should stay how it is.

Pokemon canonicity, on the other hand...

 

[The_Impress]

Aren't Pokémon only having just 4 abilities game mechanics though?

 

[Joaco0902]

Aren't Pokémon only having just 4 abilities game mechanics though?

Yup.

 

[Moritzva]

Aren't Pokémon only having just 4 abilities game mechanics though?

As we treat it, yes, though there isn't much evidence of an average species member having literally ever move at once. That's more or less just how we treat RPG characters in general.

 

[Sera_EX]

"Genetic lottery" was just a (admittedly pretty bad) analogy, but not necessarily literal.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think they do tend to limit it to 4 moves in the anime nowadays as well, although I can't confirm this

Probably not all that relevant tho

 

[Moritzva]

I think they do tend to limit it to 4 moves in the anime nowadays as well, although I can't confirm this

Probably not all that relevant tho

Actually, I distinctly recall some of this in the anime. It's... pretty solid grounds for the rework of Pokemon profiles, to be honest, since that means it isn't game mechanics at all.

 

[Sera_EX]

The anime is it's own continuity, isn't it?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I do remember Pikachu forgetting a move in black and white I think.

But then the anime also has one of the characters saying that a pokemon learns a skill at a certain level, though that was a way older gen. Doubt that is supposed to be canon, too. And by level I don't mean saying that a pokemon is a high-level or anything, I mean up and saying at what level it learns an ability at.

 

[Moritzva]

The anime is it's own continuity, isn't it?

I'm not sure. Haven't we used anime feats before?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I agree with Andy, even though I find myself in the minority opinion on the matter.

I honestly doubt that we'd see so many exceptions, with us bending over backwards to maintain how we currently treat Pokemon profiles if it was not as popular of a verse on the website, and did not have as much of a history on this website. The same could be said of Digimon, to a lesser extent.

Pokémon is an RPG first before anything else and if the Ashen One for example gets all of their abilities (all the magic, pyromancy, weapons, etc.) I'm not sure why a Pokémon (chosen as representative of the entire species capabilities for our purposes), wouldn't also get that same treatment. Especially when doing so doesn't go against canonicity like traditional composite profiles do.

The Ashen one is a singular character, for one, not a representative for an entire species. A closer comparison would be "Composite Human (Dark Souls III)", where, since nearly all the magic and equipment used by the humans present in the game is available to other humans, we can make a profile 'representing' the species, despite that profile not representing any concrete character. We obviously don't want this, but it's allowed by the same standard that allows Pokemon and Digimon, unless we make specific exceptions to them.

I could go into how it isn't possible in nearly every Pokemon game for any single Pokemon to have all of its abilities at once, although I'm certain that'd be passed of as a games mechanic. Sure, on a profile we could list all the abilities it could have, but technically they can't have all those abilities at once in a VS. I'm fairly certain we apply the same philosophy to RPG characters, albeit very inconsistently. For example, in a VS Thread, we wouldn't assume that the Ashen One is capable of wielding every weapon they had ever wielded at the same time; it would be assumed they are using their most typical/strongest weapon, otherwise the OP needs to specify.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Do you mean abilities or moves?

If you mean abilities, they can have more than one in the MD games.

If you mean moves, please tell me how Pokémon such as a genius with a 4000 IQ and knows every piece of information of the world and canonically never forgets a thing it learns only remembering how to use four moves is anything less than game mechanics?

 

[Everything12]

Actually while the Anime might follow the whole one Ability thing, based off the fact that no Pokemon has been shown with more than one ability to my knowledge, four moves and one ability has never been something that was actually stated in the Anime, with their even being Pokemon with more then four moves such as the Dragonite in the Orange Islands.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If you mean moves, please tell me how Pokémon such as a genius with a 4000 IQ and knows every piece of information of the world and canonically never forgets a thing it learns only remembering how to use four moves is anything less than game mechanics?

The same way how Pokémon that are essentially mindless can 'remember' hundreds of different moves at once and 'learn' new moves, going under your argument that they can use any and all moves available to them across the entire species.

I'm sure you can pick at inconsistencies with any interpretation of this, but as pointed out above Pokémon 'forgetting moves' seems to be grounded outside of the game as well, so I'm unsure why it would be considered purely a game mechanic.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Game mechanics.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Tell that to Ash's Kingler and Snorlax, as well as Drake's Dragonite.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Amen, brother

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Game mechanics.

Nice meme.

Not sure why we're posting memes off the Fun and Games forum, but whatever floats your boat.

Tell that to Ash's Kingler and Snorlax, as well as Drake's Dragonite.

Sure, show me where they use every move that is available to the respective species in the games.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

If you are gonna use the anime, it shows abilities like lick, headbutt and fly as making the body part used for the skill glow white, so it is a special skill.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What? No, that's for moves like Focus Punch or Wing Attack. Headbutt and Fly and Dive and Dig and etc never had a glowy effect.

 

[Andytrenom]

I don't even remember a pokemon using fly in the anime, and even Bulbapaedia lists two golurks from two separate movies as the only usage of the move

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

What? No, that's for moves like Focus Punch or Wing Attack. Headbutt and Fly and Dive and Dig and etc never had a glowy effect.

I mean, we can be wonky the other way around, too. Let's say a Pokémon that has claws or nails can't learn the move scratch. Apparently it can't just scratch against something by moving, since Moves are the only things Pokémon are capable of doing.

I feel like there's a clear difference between Moves and what a Pokémon can just normally do with its body. As pointed out above, a Pokémon like Pidgey doesn't have to learn the move fly to well, fly, as that'd be silly. Obviously there's a difference between the move fly, and the act of flying in of itself, then.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah Fly totally wasn't used as an HM for aerial transport for 18 years

 

[Starter_Pack]

Fly was used in the manga, both as an attack and as a means of transport.

 

[The_Impress]

Actually, if we were to rework the Pokémon profiles, how would it actually be done?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah Fly totally wasn't used as an HM for aerial transport for 18 years

So you're telling me that in-universe, Pokémon who don't know the Move fly can't fly with something on its back?

Pokemon not being capable of learning hundreds of moves at once is a game mechanic, but that isn't?

I feel like you're arguing the complete opposite point to what you were arguing just a few posts ago.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Squirtle can bite, but I guess it stops being able to as Blastoise. Guess it only eats soup after getting rid of those four moves.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Shouldn't this be its own separate thread?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So you're telling me that in-universe, Pokémon who don't know the Move fly can't fly with something on its back?

Pokemon not being capable of learning hundreds of moves at once is a game mechanic, but that isn't?

I feel like you're arguing the complete opposite point to what you were arguing just a few posts ago.


What? No. I'm saying it is a game mechanic. And by your logic it's not.

 

[Overlord775]

Dargoo, you don't need to be a goddamn genius to know how to use your natural abilities

Pokémons are natural fighters, their entire life revolves around it, so it makes sense they would have many attacks

Also, the most moves a Pokémon can naturally learn is only 20ish

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Squirtle can bite, but I guess it stops being able to as Blastoise. Guess it only eats soup after getting rid of those four moves.

Or maybe there's a difference between what it can just normally do with it's own body, and the special moves it uses to attack?

I literally made the same example to demonstrate how moves aren't necessary for Pokemon to do basic physical actions. They can't be the same thing in any interpretation of this.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Shouldn't this be its own separate thread?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Shouldn't this be its own separate thread?

Kind of?

This whole issue practically only exists because of Pokemon and Pokemon alone (perhaps also Digimon, but I'm not as familiar with that). I was asked in another thread to draft rules that specifically make exception for Pokemon, and I'm wondering what makes it the exception beyond popularity and history.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because what was shown in that clip was totally a special move, despite being Bite.

Granted, some applications of the move (I.e.: Lycanroc's) are 100% what you described. Not gonna lie.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Because what was shown in that clip was totally a special move, despite being Bite.
Granted, some applications of the move (I.e.: Lycanroc's) are 100% what you described. Not gonna lie.

I feel like you're aware I wasn't using 'special move' in that sentence as in the type of move specifically in Pokemon, so I'm not sure what point your first line here serves.

I guess we agree on that, then?

 

[Overlord775]

Dargoo, you don't need to be a goddamn genius to know how to use your natural abilities
Pokémons are natural fighters, their entire life revolves around it, so it makes sense they would have many attacks

Also, the most moves a Pokémon can naturally learn is only 20ish

..

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Dargoo

Digimon's inherited skills mechanic (as well as a different evolution mechanic) is quite different to Pokemon's and Digimon have never had a limited movepool canonically. Also Digimon separates "Species" and "Specific Characters" already.

For example, Piedmo.

He has a "Species Key" That has it and all the realistically possible and consistent pre-evolution abilities. (Digimon can also devolve into various Digimon and gain even more abilities. We have guidelines for this as well already).

He also has a "Digimon Aventure" key that only details abilities he gets as a "Piedmon" and specific stuff he showed (like Conceptual Manipulation from Apocalymon which other Piedmon will not have. This Piedmon also didn't go through an evolutionary line as he was specifically created as a Piedmon)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Dargoo, you don't need to be a goddamn genius to know how to use your natural abilities

Apologies, I'm sort of debating multiple people at once, here.

You're assuming all the moves are natural abilities to begin with when saying that, which is exactly what I'm debating.

The whole point of my argument is that there is a difference between moves, and what a Pokemon can normally do with its body. There's Pokemon who can't learn Scratch, for example, that should logically be capable of scratching things, so on and so forth.

@Dargoo

Oh, I see. So it seems Digimon follows the proposed standards already, which is great.

Would agree that Pokemon should be treated with the same standards as Digimon, in this case? The issue mainly stems from Pokemon receiving exceptions/rule workarounds that we don't see from other verses.