Our rules regarding alternative timeline Marvel and DC Comics characters

[Antvasima]

Hello.

I would appreciate some help here

I do not think that we should create pages for obscure Marvel and DC Comics characters from alternate timelines, as their statistics tend to be extremely inconsistent, and there are tens of thousands of these insignificant characters around, so I do not want us to be flooded with such profiles pages, and I have maintained this policy for almost 8 years now.

Our rules in the following page are clear regarding the issue.

Canon

Canon is a term used to designate works that are generally accepted as the genuine work that apply to the fictional verse. With few possible exceptions only canon material is featured in the character pages, with non-canon material to be ignored. The generally agreed-upon definition is that the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Alternative Canon/Non-Canonical profiles for Marvel and DC Comics can only be created if the version in question proves relevant/notable enough, through popularity and/or number of issues present."

However, the rules in the following page likely need to be modified to stay consistent with our general canon rules.

Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics

There are several massive problems with using power-scaling for these two prominent franchises that have shared hundreds of different authors over several decades. Said writers naturally tend to have highly differing opinions and interpretations, which is reflected in their stories. Quite often...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Please refrain from making profiles for characters with less than 20 appearances across comic books (approximately 2 years' worth of appearances), unless they play an extremely important part in the overall plot and scaling of the characters, or are frequently mentioned by other media, as the constantly changing nature of their statistics make it hard for us to keep files updated as is."

They should preferably be modified to something similar to the following draft text instead in order to ensure the general reliability for these franchises, and to only allow profile pages for the alternative timeline characters that are most relevant, so we do not drown in them long-term. (I also do not remember accepting all of the above rule text in the first place.)

"Please refrain from making profiles for characters with less than 20 appearances (approximately 2 years' worth) across comic books, unless they play an extremely important part in the overall plot and scaling of the characters, as the constantly changing nature of their statistics make it hard for us to keep files updated as is."

I would appreciate if this change can be accepted by our staff. Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @Damage3245

I would appreciate your input here.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I assume that this applies to only comics counterparts? If so, it's fine with me,

 

[The_Impress]

Demonstrate examples of these inconsistencies.

Also appreciate only admins getting tagged for this.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Personally, I think that regardless of removing characters with less than 20 appearances, you're still going to eventually reach a point where we have way too many characters in the verse.

Like just relevant Spider-People alone there are about 10 of them. Peter, Miles, Ben, Miguel, etc. This is not counting alternate universe characters, mind you.

I think our rules were made to curb profiles that are carbon copy AU characters with little deviance from their mainstream counterpart. If we have a profile for Peter Porker, it's completely fine I feel.

 

[Antvasima]

Well my main issue is that there are at least several thousands of alternative timeline characters that have just appeared in a few issues, so it sets a bad precedent to let loose the floodgates of irrelevance, along with that the character power levels are usually all over the place from timeline to timeline, so I want the same safeguards for alternative timelines as for all of their mainstrean counterparts. That is all.

Again, I would greatly appreciate if you would be willing to collaborate with me here, or at least try to find a compromise solution, so we state that such characters can only be scaled from their own feats and need some sort of notability safeguards as well.

 

[The_Impress]

Well my main issue is that there are at least several thousands of alternative timeline characters that have just appeared in a few issues, so it sets a bad precedent to let loose the floodgates of irrelevance, along with that the character power levels are usually all over the place from timeline to timeline, so I want the same safeguards for alternative timelines as for all of their mainstrean counterparts. That is all.

It isn't a factor when the page this got deleted had its own calculations, notes to establish that "This is an alt. world character DON'T scale to mainline" and had his own starring solo run with a definite plot.

You're equating that to half issue characters that never returned and only have to them "Spider-Man but X", as long as your generalization is to that degree, I'll disagree immensely to this thread, this is baseless paranoia

 

[Antvasima]

Also appreciate only admins getting tagged for this.

I already informed you via our previous message wall discussion thread, and informed most of the other knowledgeable members regarding Marvel and DC via a preexisting PM discussion.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

You can have a character with one appearance who becomes more popular than their mainstream counterpart. Limiting them down to issues is not a valid reason to completely annex them.

Like if they have a sufficient level of deviance from their mainstream counterpart, I'm perfectly fine with them having a profile. Dark Knights are a good example of this. They're not quite Batman, not quite their Justice League counterparts, so they're wholly unique regardless of sharing abilities.

 

[The_Impress]

Also rule in question asked to change isn't ABOUT alt. world characters anyways??? It's about 616 characters getting wrecked even though they're adapted everywhere with the 20 issue rules, since they're relevant to general public and would logically have notability with them.

 

[Antvasima]

It isn't a factor when the page this got deleted had its own calculations, notes to establish that "This is an alt. world character DON'T scale to mainline" and had his own starring solo run with a definite plot.

You're equating that to half issue characters that never returned and only have to them "Spider-Man but X", as long as your generalization is to that degree, I'll disagree immensely to this thread, this is baseless paranoia

As far as I recall he still only appeared in 3 or 5 issues in an obscure storyline that was never referred to again, and I don't see why we should have much lesser restrictions for alternative timeline characters than the main continuity ones. At the very least we need some sort of safeguards to prevent being flooded by irrelevance long-term.

 

[Antvasima]

You can have a character with one appearance who becomes more popular than their mainstream counterpart. Limiting them down to issues is not a valid reason to completely annex them.

Like if they have a sufficient level of deviance from their mainstream counterpart, I'm perfectly fine with them having a profile. Dark Knights are a good example of this. They're not quite Batman, not quite their Justice League counterparts, so they're wholly unique regardless of sharing abilities.

Yes, but that is an extremely notable storyline that has lasted for over 30 years. It would obviously qualify as being notable. However, most alternative timeline stories do not.

 

[The_Impress]

As far as I recall he still only appeared in 3 or 5 issues in an obscure storyline that was never referred to again, and I don't see why we should have much lesser restrictions for alternative timeline characters than the main continuity ones. At the very least we need some sort of safeguards to prevent being flooded by irrelevance long-term.

Why SHOULD we have a restriction for them? They're one and done and never come back, and never have a factor of changing stats, crux of 616 notability standards. No reason to delete them.

 

[Antvasima]

Also rule in question asked to change isn't ABOUT alt. world characters anyways??? It's about 616 characters getting cucked even though they're adapted everywhere with the 20 issue rules, since they're relevant to general public and would logically have notability with them.

We have issue number safeguards mainly because their statistics recurrently go up and down between tier 9 and 1 depending on the storyline, so we need to be able to establish some sort of consistency.

 

[The_Impress]

We have issue number safeguards mainly because their statistics recurrently go up and down between tier 9 and 1 depending on the storyline, so we need to be able to establish some sort of consistency.

No character that rules can ever apply to, has done that. Ever. Name an applicable character that rule safeguards, that goes from "Tier 9 to 1" or hell, even a single tier gap

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If the rule is for forbidding Marvel/DC characters who come from non-canon comics and/or versions of canon characters who originate from non-canon comics. I can agree that it often creates complications. Or at least cross scaling should be forbidden and limited to their own feats.

But for instance, the various animated and movie adaptations have been doing well in being treated as completely separate continuities. So things like DCAU or DCEU are fair game. But at best, non-canon comics could be treated similarly to how we treat things like those if they're note worthy or have enough issues.

 

[Antvasima]

Why SHOULD we have a restriction for them? They're one and done and never come back, and never have a factor of changing stats, crux of 616 notability standards. No reason to delete them.

Again, because there are far too many of them and letting loose the floodgates would drown us in irrelevant characters that do not qualify as being much more significant than fanfiction, and usually without the page creators knowing how to scale them properly.

 

[Antvasima]

If the rule is for forbidding Marvel/DC characters who come from non-canon comics and/or versions of canon characters who originate from non-canon comics. I can agree that it often creates complications. Or at least cross scaling should be forbidden and limited to their own feats.

But for instance, the various animated and movie adaptations have been doing well in being treated as completely separate continuities. So things like DCAU or DCEU are fair game. But at best, non-canon comics could be treated similarly to how we treat things like those if they're note worthy or have enough issues.

Yes, that is not the problem. I just want us to have some sort of official safeguard instructions for alternative versions of characters that have appeared in just a few "What If?" stories or similar, so we do not accept the ones without any significant notability.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm with Impress on this one.

The factors surrounding this change are completely arbitrary. A one-shot about an aged Spider-Man who's Mary Jane died won't be affected by the big tier changes.

If someone makes a profile for a character that has any sort of proper scaling to a mainstream character, then by definition they're not irrelevant scaling wise. They might be forgotten by the public, sure. But scaling to the main hero is a static thing, why would it matter if the character was relevant or not?

A random 4-B that does not scale to anyone but Thor does not make the verse incomprehensible or inconsistent. It just makes it bigger. And if management is your concern, then you're worrying about one of the most active and immortal fanbases on the wiki. It will always have the manpower to be adjusted regardless of size.

 

[Antvasima]

No character that rules can ever apply to, has done that. Ever. Name an applicable character that rule safeguards, that goes from "Tier 9 to 1" or hell, even a single tier gap

Canon comics Thor has gone from tier 9 to 1 depending on the story, as has the Black Panther, for example.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I can maybe see the logic behind this change, but I'm actually going to have to reject this proposition.

I feel like this ignores the fact that we are a character indexing website dedicated to recording characters that we, the community, wish to dedicate our time to recording to the best of our collective ability. And if a character that has little relevance at the moment needs to be updated over time as new material is released, so be it.

Honestly, if you wish to make an issue of this with comics, then you may as well take a focus on this with the wiki as a whole. As there are many characters that have extremely minor roles in their respective medium that have profiles on the wiki. Prime example.

I'm honestly with Impress. This is kind of ridiculous in my opinion, and frankly a bit unfair to the comic community, as you don't seem to think people have enough common sense to realize whether something would or would not work with in-verse scaling as a whole.

 

[The_Impress]

Again, because there are far too many of them

There are far too many VNs, there are far too many mangas, there are far too many books.

NOT. ONE. RESTRICTION. ON. THEM. Unless you want a general wiki standard for them, I disagree

and letting loose the floodgates would drown us in irrelevant characters that do not qualify as being much more significant than fanfiction

We LITERALLY HAVE Invisible Dragon on the wiki. And the day your fanfic gets published by Marvel, I'll still 100% say it gets a file.

, and usually without the page creators knowing how to scale them properly.

Sucks for the page creator, delete their pages, not the people who know how.

If the rule is for forbidding Marvel/DC characters who come from non-canon comics and/or versions of canon characters who originate from non-canon comics. I can agree that it often creates complications. Or at least cross scaling should be forbidden and limited to their own feats.

There was explicitly no cross-scaling for the file deleted

But for instance, the various animated and movie adaptations have been doing well in being treated as completely separate continuities. So things like DCAU or DCEU are fair game. But at best, non-canon comics could be treated similarly to how we treat things like those if they're note worthy or have enough issues.

Arbitrary distinction, why are TV shows and the monthly DC films they pump out more valid?

Canon comics Thor has gone from tier 9 to 1 depending on the story, as has the Black Panther, for example.

Inapplicable character, wrong answer. Give me an applicable character for it. Thor has 1000s of issues to **** up his continuity.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm with Impress on this one.

The factors surrounding this change are completely arbitrary. A one-shot about an aged Spider-Man who's Mary Jane died won't be affected by the big tier changes.

If someone makes a profile for a character that has any sort of proper scaling to a mainstream character, then by definition they're not irrelevant scaling wise. They might be forgotten by the public, sure. But scaling to the main hero is a static thing, why would it matter if the character was relevant or not?

A random 4-B that does not scale to anyone but Thor does not make the verse incomprehensible or inconsistent. It just makes it bigger. And if management is your concern, then you're worrying about one of the most active and immortal fanbases on the wiki. It will always have the manpower to be adjusted regardless of size.

I am only talking about adding some safeguard standards regarding notability for "What If?" characters and similar. That is all. I am stressed out and exhausted, so I am not sure if you are misunderstanding my intentions here or not.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I understand your intentions. I simply do not agree with the context for your proposed changes because it is inherently flawed.

"What If?" characters pose no threat to the status quo and more often than not scale to their own feats. Any sort of safeguard you're describing here is for a problem that doesn't exist.

Notability is completely arbitrary as I've said above. Their existence does nothing to detriment literally anything besides add more pages to the wiki. Everything I've said is a rebuttal to this singular problem you seem to have with them.

 

[The_Impress]

What IF characters aren't the same as Alt. World characters. You deleted an alt. world story that follows wiki standard one-to-one with the arbitrary assertion it's somehow the same as a What-If character because... "quality"?

The entire issue with What If characters again, is that they're completely reliant on 616 stats and if they were made in high number, they'll make the constantly shifting stats of Marvel nightmarish to apply.

Alt World characters belong to their own universe, and have THEIR OWN STATS to pull from, there is no need to ever redo their pages after their limited run and again, EMPHASIS, they get runs, What-If characters get half an issue.

Literally no reason whatsoever to restrict them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

One of the main aspects of Thor's character is that he holds back in nearly every fight he's in. That and he used to have a weakness where he loses all his superhuman abilities when separated from Mjolnir. And he's normally not supposed to fight on par with various Tier 2/1 without his Odinforce, Rune King, forms or his God Blast technique. But a lot of writers do portray various metahumans being urban level that ironically outnumbers the planetary or stellar portrayals. And sometimes even higher dimensional characters are portrayed as just being 3-Dimensional. Which is just the issue of having too many writers that conflict each other. But admittedly, there's going to be loopholes within loopholes no matter what we do, but our goal is to create a scaling with the fewest loopholes.

But I agree that short lived generic monster characters who only ever appear in one comic, have been seen as comparable if not superior to the likes of even a serious Thor or Superman, and that's despite their best feats to be cracking floors and destroying walls that also caused said monsters to hurt their hands in the process are unreliable to be involved in a scaling chain.

But yes, I think non-canon continuities should preferably be using their own feats unless it's specifically stated to be branched from some canon versions. But even those may be inconsistent because it might not be explained when the respective continuity/timeline splits for characters who get stronger as their main character arc progresses.

 

[Antvasima]

There are far too many VNs, there are far too many mangas, there are far too many books.

NOT. ONE. RESTRICTION. ON. THEM. Unless you want a general wiki standard for them, I disagree

Marvel and DC Comics are enormously more cluttered and inconsistent than the examples you mentioned are due to several hundred writers, and tens of thousands of characters over a span of over 80 years.

We LITERALLY HAVE Invisible Dragon on the wiki. And the day your fanfic gets published by Marvel, I'll still 100% say it gets a file.

Not if it doesn't have a sufficient number of appearances. We do need to be able to find a consistent pattern.

Sucks for the page creator, delete their pages, not the people who know how.

There was explicitly no cross-scaling for the file deleted

Well, then we need to specify that sufficiently notable alternative canon characters with their own feats can stay, but we definitely cannot lessen our safeguards.

Arbitrary distinction, why are TV shows and the monthly DC films they pump out more valid?

Because they are extremely well-known, usually with lots of episodes, and because their continuities have not turned into incoherent messes due to several tens of thousands of published stories with several hundreds of contradictory creative voices.

Inapplicable character, wrong answer. Give me an applicable character for it. Thor has 1000s of issues to **** up his continuity.

I am not sure what you mean here, but I am extremely tired right now. Naturally alternative timeline characters that only appear in a few issues worth of story do not have the time to contradict themselves to this degree, but the comparative power levels from timeline to timeline differ an awful lot.

 

[The_Impress]

But even those may be inconsistent because it might not be explained when the respective continuity/timeline splits.

If it's not demonstrated don't assume 616 feats happened, simple as that :v

 

[Antvasima]

I can maybe see the logic behind this change, but I'm actually going to have to reject this proposition.

I feel like this ignores the fact that we are a character indexing website dedicated to recording characters that we, the community, wish to dedicate our time to recording to the best of our collective ability. And if a character that has little relevance at the moment needs to be updated over time as new material is released, so be it.

Honestly, if you wish to make an issue of this with comics, then you may as well take a focus on this with the wiki as a whole. As there are many characters that have extremely minor roles in their respective medium that have profiles on the wiki. Prime example.

I'm honestly with Impress. This is kind of ridiculous in my opinion, and frankly a bit unfair to the comic community, as you don't seem to think people have enough common sense to realize whether something would or would not work with in-verse scaling as a whole.

Please read my clarifications in my last post above.

 

[Antvasima]

I understand your intentions. I simply do not agree with the context for your proposed changes because it is inherently flawed.

"What If?" characters pose no threat to the status quo and more often than not scale to their own feats. Any sort of safeguard you're describing here is for a problem that doesn't exist.

Notability is completely arbitrary as I've said above. Their existence does nothing to detriment literally anything besides add more pages to the wiki. Everything I've said is a rebuttal to this singular problem you seem to have with them.

Well, at the very least we need to mention that "What If?" characters should have some measure of notability (be well-known/popular) and only scale to their own feats, if we do not do so already.

 

[Antvasima]

What IF characters aren't the same as Alt. World characters. You deleted an alt. world story that follows wiki standard one-to-one with the arbitrary assertion it's somehow the same as a What-If character because... "quality"?

The entire issue with What If characters again, is that they're completely reliant on 616 stats and if they were made in high number, they'll make the constantly shifting stats of Marvel nightmarish to apply.

Alt World characters belong to their own universe, and have THEIR OWN STATS to pull from, there is no need to ever redo their pages after their limited run and again, EMPHASIS, they get runs, What-If characters get half an issue.

Literally no reason whatsoever to restrict them.

Okay. I suppose that is a valid point, if they are scaled from their own statistics. I am still not convinced that this particular character is significant enough though.

 

[The_Impress]

Marvel and DC Comics are enormously more cluttered and inconsistent than they are due to several hundred writers, and tens of thousands of characters over a span of over 80 years.

Said comic ran for a few months, not 80 years, unnecessary extension

Not if it doesn't have a sufficient number of appearances. We do need to be able to find a consistent pattern.

Which isn't arbitrary exclusion

Well, then we need to specify that sufficiently notable alternative canon characters with their own feats can stay, but we definitely cannot lessen our safeguards.

That's transparently apparent regardless.

Because they are extremely well-known, usually with lots of episodes, and because their continuities have not turned into incoherent messes due to several tens of thousands of published stories with several hundreds of contradictory creative voices.

DCAU and DCAMU have, dw. There are cases to be made fro tier 7 base Penguin.

I am not sure what you mean here, but I am extremely tired right now. Naturally alternative timeline characters that only appear in a few issues worth of story do not have the time to contradict themselves to this degree, but the comparative power levels from timeline to timeline differ an awful lot.

If there is no contradiction to be had, then there is no inconsistency, simple as that.

I am still not convinced that this particular character is significant enough though.

Why? He had his own solo series, man.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't think I received any PM. That said, I definitely have to agree with Impress' arguments here.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, okay. I suppose that your page can probably be restored then, but I would still prefer if we make better defined instructions for what kind of alternative timeline characters that are allowed and that they can only be scaled from their own feats.

Also, I am uncomfortable with including profile pages for comic book characters with just a few insignificant appearances just because they have appeared in a movie.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think I received any PM. That said, I definitely have to agree with Impress' arguments here.

I sent it to the DC Comics revision project team.

 

[Armorchompy]

I sent it to the DC Comics revision project team.

Ok.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, I am uncomfortable with including profile pages for comic book characters with just a few insignificant appearances just because they have appeared in a movie.

I don't think this is the kinda thing that is likely to spiral out of control, movies are relatively short and can't fit too many cameos in them especially from non-notable characters, so I wouldn't worry over it.

 

[Antvasima]

I have restored the page:

Bailey Hoskins (Worst X-Man Ever)

Fine. If you won't save this world… someone's got to. In an alternate universe, Bailey Hoskins thought of himself as an unremarkable boy, part of no clique and having no notable hobbies, until the day his parents reveal to him that he may be a mutant. Excited at the prospects, he heads to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think this is the kinda thing that is likely to spiral out of control, movies are relatively short and can't fit too many cameos in them especially from non-notable characters, so I wouldn't worry over it.

Okay then.

I would still prefer if we make better defined instructions for what kind of alternative timeline characters that are allowed and that they can only be scaled from their own feats.

So what about this then?

 

[The_Impress]

"Alternative Canon/Non-Canonical profiles for Marvel and DC Comics can only be created if the version in question was prominently featured in their own runs, and scale to their own feats instead of presuming to scale to their Earth-616 counterparts."