Ordinary Magician vs Keyblade Wielder [Marisa Kirisame vs Sora: Battle for Most Skilled on the Wiki || GRACE]

[Passersby]

That's more or less the point I was trying to get at, yeah (the highlighted part). It's a testament to her knowledge in the field of magic.

alright, then that makes sens

Basically, her analysis of magic lets her understand things that, by their very nature, can't be understood, and are powered by that lack of understanding.

it's just this part that confused me

thanks for your time

 

[Deidalius]

this is why i hate overwanked skill debates where someone is so skilled they can make a wooden door with nothing but rocks

Well fantasy's gonna fantasy.
Stuff like this happens all the time where peeps do senseless illogical feats like Tails the hedgehog building a TV out of paper clips.
It's not just skill though.

 

[Passersby]

Well fantasy's gonna fantasy.
Stuff like this happens all the time where peeps do senseless illogical feats like Tails the hedgehog building a TV out of paper clips.
It's not just skill though.

common misconception, but something being fantasy doesn't suddenly mean that physics inside that fictional work are a myth

the feat your provided is not skill, it's hax for the simple reason that we use physics and irl logic to scale fictional characters and feats, it's simply impossible to make a TV using nothing but paper clips unless something supernatual or magical is involved in it's making


thanks for the likes btw, i quite appreciate them

 

[Deidalius]

common misconception, but something being fantasy doesn't suddenly mean that physics inside that fictional work are a myth

the feat your provided is not skill, it's hax for the simple reason that we use physics and irl logic to scale fictional characters and feats, it's simply impossible to make a TV using nothing but paper clips unless something supernatual or magical is involved in it's making

Fair but I mean like, sometimes characters do skill feats/intelligence feats that are illogical and impossible. That's an existing possibility. Tails the cat is the first one that came to my head.

thanks for the likes btw, i quite appreciate them

Oh it's nothing personal. I just leave likes on posts to make it easier to me to see which was the last part I read.
Likes serve me as a bookmark if you will.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm back, everyone.

Anyways...

Let me start with the biggest fault here. Everything I scale Marisa to falls under the spell card rules. The spell card rules are in-universe guidelines intended to equalize duels between humans and youkai, effectively acting as AP equalization; Being stronger than your opponent is a complete non-factor in such fights. In fact, they are outright referred to as contests of skill, something Marisa herself also states. So this has 0 basis, and skill scaling via spell card duels is perfectly fine because the series outright states they are comparisons of skill above all else. Also... one of your big skill feats for Sora is him beating an army of 1000 fodder enemies so uh. Did you take that into consideration when writing this?

And... as expected, you relied on the spell card stuff.

Well, I have news for you, they were retconned on this regard (not as a whole, before you nitpick) and so can't be used for skill purposes.

Nowadays they aren't even an object per-say, but rather just characters having the formality to call their attacks before doing them, and fancy visual effects.
Meaning that using them to argue skill in general seems rather inappropiate as they aren't accurate to the character's capabilities after the retcon.

As for the "elemental weaknesses" thing, I assume you're referring to Tenshi? The problem with your assertion is that we do know how the fight went; Marisa fvcking wins, and I wouldn't have mentioned it if she didn't.

No timestamp .
Do you expect me to see a 30 minutes video? If anything all I'm seeing is that the danmakus are just brute forced past with invulnerability frames than actually dodging a good amount of the time, which'd devalue the claimed skill involved, and going by the comments it doesn't seem even possible to do a no-hit run without this game mechanics abuse.

Another major issue. The most skilled thread outright mentioned that good senses and battlefield awareness are an important factor, as does the skill blog you keep bringing into this. You can't arbitrarily exclude it; Marisa takes this category in spades, even with the 3D radar thing, given Marisa has more or less the same kinds of senses, as well as senses that can span for miles or even interdimensional distances (on top of more variety, like feeling auras, power levels, magic energy, and so on).

And how such stuff is done is also a factor, someone manually copying skill by analyzing all details involved and replicating the movements accordingly is far more impressive than someone copying skill with an ability that does the work for them out of this.

Also refer to what First Witch said before, this is just an ability (or set of) and does not fall as analytical skill to begin with out of that.

Spoiler: No Bob, You can't exclude enhanced senses

"Of course, these are simply the main things to consider when talking of a character's skill. In terms of skill, one must consider things such as Analytical Prediction, Enhanced Senses, Accelerated Development, Acrobatics, etc. But ultimately, one's skill can be measured by evaluating their Experience in combat, their Precision, otherwise known as their ability for micro-control/ability to control and hit targets, and adaptability, which can be summarized as their ability to adapt their skills to new and foreign situations. The Adaptability category should not be mentioned when referring to one's strength development, and should focus strictly on the development of one's technique."

"Not only those instincts cover the reflex and thoughtless reactions, it is also essential to be aware of your surroundings even if unconsciously. Think of it as having trained your five senses, touch, sight and hearing in particular, as to not invalidate the smallest of impulses received. I've seen in both the Bujinkan dojo I trained at and in boxing that, at the higher level (Experienced green belts and black belts on the former, my coach in the latter), it is normal to train awareness by reacting to stuff while blindfolded, without warning. Of course, it isn't like in fiction, where a character perfectly dodges something with no indication at all of what was about to happen. Rather, there were many ways to train that, but usually by either slowly building a rhythm of increasingly faster things to react to, or the person reacted in situations with increasingly more disturbances to the training. (Initially training while no one could move or make a sound, and then increasing it)"

Time to argue that a character with Cosmic Awareness and/or Omniscience bodies the skill list, lol.
...Yeah, refer to what I said before.

Actually, it isn't her erasing her presence or anything haxxy like that; It's actually completely impossible for someone in Touhou to not leave a trace of their existence so long as they have a soul (and before you ask, Koishi doesn't count since she doesn't have a soul). Also, I have no idea what you mean by limited range - Reimu's intuition at bare minimum is able to work on incidents across Gensokyo, which is at least a few kilometers large. It's also tracked down people in Heaven, which is one of those extradimensional Otherworlds I mentioned before, so range definitely isn't an issue (and just so we're clear, when she mentions going above the clouds, it is in fact referring to Heaven).

Tbh that stealth feat is like. Baby's First Stealth Mechanic. It's a guy with 0 enhanced senses feats and a blindspot the size of a small car, this is well within the range of what a regular human could do.

And this is either just a resistance to those tracking abilities (no combat skill is involved here as aid before), or just falls as a nonsense skill feat to not use if you can't even explain it beyond "she's that good", one thing is skill far beyond human limits and another is feats that downright defy logic in general.

Marisa absolutely does not fight the same stuff over and over again; Like, Marisa has actively fought against and beaten time stop spammers, people who constantly strategize over which elements to use to counter their enemies (which, in addition to the power null I already covered, are stated to decide fights before they even begin), people who constantly warp your senses and materialize your hallucinations into reality, and basically 99% of the characters on this list. The sheer variety of abilities and their uses in Touhou outdoes all of KH and then some, and Marisa's protagonist role means she's seen all of it and more (you could also just read Grimoire of Marisa, which has a lot of examples of her describing how she researches and counteracts some of these techniques). Just because all of this is fought through the lens of danmaku doesn't mean it's any less impressive.

Also, the timeframe for her development is a huge deal. There is no way in hell you're claiming that learning a skill in months or years is anywhere near as impressive as learning it in days or hours.

Oh yes, time to claim random Pokémon are as skilled as Patchuoli, merely abusing elemental weaknesses is more of a matter of basic strategy than combat skill, which while valid and all it's extremely minor as it's like just using salt on a slug over using oil.

Most of these abilities are either useless on a vs context (lol reading books by placing the hand over them), or just elemental abilities, which doesn't change much considering how attacks in the verse are generally treated, aka, either they do about as much damage as other attacks or they just one shot.

TBH I think even the danmaku here it a bit overrated, considering it's always 2D, one can't help but wonder how difficult to dodge it really is in-universe, it even seems the attacks are really what they look like considering some details given in a interview:

When I think about it, there might be a lot of times where I think "I definitely want to use this term that's related to this character, so how should I go about making a danmaku pattern that matches it?". I picture in my head, "with this concept and this name, what kind of pattern should it be?". An easy example would be Toyosatomimi no Miko's Discernment "Laser of Seventeen Articles". I wanted to use a name that included "Seventeen Lines" (十七条)-- like, I decided on that name first, and then I thought about how to make danmaku where she literally fired seventeen lines of lasers. That sort of thing. Now that I really think about it, I think it's more common for me to come up with a name first, and then think about how to depict it afterward.

And before you call game mechanics (unless a 3D bullet hell Touhou thing ever happened in detail or so, lol), this is a common trope, so this stuff is quite devalued in practical terms.

To further show the point, the fact she couldn't just fly above a mountain heavily implies that she can't just freely fly vertically, thus making it quite reasonable to claim that danmakus in the verse aren't that good in practical terms in-verse, namely compared to Sora, who can freely move vertically and has dealt with more complex danmakus in practical terms given these details.

Not at all, Sora has dealt with way more, including:

- Quite a lot of dual wielders, with Xemnas and Larxene even having clones of themselves to complement even further, Xigbar in particular manipulating space to limit where Sora's mobility (and notably forcing him to dodge danmakus in all dimensions), Axel forcing constant passive damage that renders Sora unable to withstand any attack, and Roxas constantly pressuring with an aggressive offense and beams to complement.

- A lot of large non-humanoid stuff, such as a swarm of Heartless, a octopus-like Dream Eater and multiple quadrupedal beings

- Hax he had to deal with (beyond even his resistances) included time stop, illusion creation, spatial manipulation, death manipulation, and plenty of elements like fire, water, electricity, ice, nothingness, etc.

As for the timeframe, well, that's quite minor, note how that while Azontr's OP mentions Accelerated Development as a valid thing to bring up, it shouldn't be the main focus as the end result is the main area, otherwise the list would be filled with almost featless omniscient deities that were immediately just born so.

It's literally her win quote after she beats herself in a mirror match, you quite literally see the entire battle play out before you. You can't just see a thing happen, see a character say "that thing did in fact just happen", and then go "well it doesn't sound reliable".

...then I'd have to ask how this is usable in the first place, I doubt mirror matches are canon.

Marisa is clearly facing the door directly at first but is facing it from an angle in the second page; It seems quite clear to me that she swerved away, but I'd rather not get caught up on a smaller feat like this.

Note how in a smaller panel in the same page we see she already moved to the same area (namely next to the door) where she then got shot.

Yeah, sure. Here's a combo video demonstrating some of what I'm talking about, a wiki page demonstrating all of her attacks, and some descriptions on the improvised rifle stuff. The creating new spell cards on the fly thing is a byproduct of both how creating spell card works (it is literally just giving a technique a name) and scaling above characters who can master danmaku in seconds. As for dodging... It's Touhou man, you don't need scans for this. It's like asking for scans of Mario jumping or Sonic running.

Seems good and all, but the wiki page and descriptions quite imply that her fancy moves and stuff aren't too adaptable and she has to find proper positioning in relation to her target, meanwhile Sora does not have to worry about that, he can just toss an opponent upwards then combo from there, even to characters that can fly.

Well, it isn't that easy to find some proper display of jumping skills for Mario or dodging feats for Sonic, plus I didn't knew much about Touhou beyond bullet hell and a ton of girls being involved. Either way, refer to my previous point of dodging 2D danmakus being worse than dodging 3D ones in practical terms (for example, I wouldn't be sure if Marisa can dodge this given what I said).

That's not how this works, what. If you create something from scratch, and someone masters the use of it in a matter of hours, it's an impressive feat regardless.

A unquantificable one as you'd then be trying to upscale from a character with no notable achievements on this regard to begin with.

Yeah no, Marisa has seen the majority of these techniques once and innately knows their inner mechanics, what hax they possess (even when she isn't affected by them), the difficulty involved in copying them, what they represent, and they type of danmaku they fall under. Against anyone in combat, this level of near-instant analysis is insanely important - Knowing exactly what an attack is capable of, whether or not she can mimic it, and how the ability works mechanically is an excellent form of analysis (one I haven't seen Sora replicate lol).

It's important, yes, but at the same time... well, she actually bothers asking the users for details, so her innate information analysis isn't that good.

...Your english seems a bit broken here, but she sees it as a part of Patchouli's non-spell attacks in EoSD once, and by IN she has not only learned how to use it as a spell card, but also develop several variations of it. Your other contentions don't make any sense; The second scan is clearly about copying magic, which is a skill feat. The third scan merely supports what's already been shown and stated.

Oops, this is what I get for writing late at night.

Well, see the above, we don't know the exact timeframe and given the above it'd be quite assumptive she instanly found all of that out by seeing it the first time, also refer to the other stuff I said regarding skill cards for our purposes.

Here you go.

Good and all, but refer back to what I said over dodging 2D danmakus being easier to dodge in-universe out of there being something called a third dimension, the fact it's clear as day the characters fly around further solodifies their unawareness, thus devaluing skill feats of this as said before.

In terms of difficulty I could bring up how some bosses are intended to be extremely difficult to players.

Q4 The members of the New Organization XIII appear as Limit Cut Bosses, but are they different from the ones in the main game? Who is the hardest boss?

They are completely different. We have changed their AI as well as their moves. They're all strong or fun in their own ways - you might need to be good at blocking, or attacking, or reading moves - which means different people will find different ones hard, but I think Xion and Master Xehanort are especially hard compared to the rest. They are so nerve-wracking and so satisfying to beat that your hands will still be shaking 15 minutes after you beat them.

Q5 Nomura requested a secret boss so hard it'd make people cry - did you succeed?

We got testers and developers who had defeated past KINGDOM HEARTS secret bosses to do a survey, and received the opinion that it was indeed hard enough to make them cry. It has a particularly high number of attack patterns - this secret boss will take time to develop a strategy against. But, just like with the New Organization XIII members, there is a way to strategize against the character's movements - it's not impossibly hard, and in fact if you play perfectly you can win without taking a single hit.

Absolutely not lol, it's a clear showcase of her adaptability; Even when fighting at a clear disadvantage, she can match and surpass people working without said disadvantage. Think of it this way: If a man with one arm attempts to duel wield, and not only successfully does so, but surpasses duel wielding masters who have two arms, is that not an impressive display of skill?

Also you keep bringing up this blog, but what it ever accepted as an official ruling on what constitutes skill?

It is impressive, but here we're just talking about the supernatural effort between abilities just to perform... manipulation of other elements, rather than some more strategic stuff or similar as mentioned in EliminatorVenom's skill blog I keep linking, hence unquantificable and not that big of a deal for these purposes.

Well, not only it was written by a former mod, looking at the comments you can see other mods being fine with it, so at the very least it's worth keeping in mind.

Marisa's combat style is all about magic - It's only natural that her extensive knowledge on what types of magic exist and how they work translates to her combat knowledge as well, because that's just how she fights. Replace "magic" with "swordfighting" and I'm sure you'd have no complaints about this being a skill feat, so since the former is Marisa's main combat style, it has no reason to be discarded.

Thing is that one thing is the effort behind using the magic at all, and another is using the magic itself cleverly as said before. Swordfighting has no issue with that as training some unusual affinity isn't required and inherently has more clever feats than just blindly shooting elemental stuff.

I'd probably have to remind you that Marisa's best stuff so far is the whole dodging danmaku stuff, which in itself is outclassed by Sora actually deflecting every bullet from a danmaku on all directions while also being physically pushed into disfavorable positions, especially given it has way more area of effect by being properly 3D unlike the typical Touhou danmaku as said before.

Also, regarding the oni stuff, her lack of sureness isn't a factor - Not only is the oni magic item she analyzed a fake, but Suika (an actual oni) still says her analysis of it was spot on. Which, now that I think about it, is even more impressive. I also wanna note that one of your main points for Sora is him being good at coding and good at sports, so try to maintain some semblance of consistency.

TBH this just comes off as a coincidence than a proper display of analytical skill, I'll remind that this kind of analysis also isn't on a combat applicable area.

Those were meant to be quite minor points, especially as they aren't mostly usable in combat, rather than something I'd heavily rely on.

You can't possibly mean to tell me these are even remotely comparable.

On terms of being nonsensical feats that can't be used they fall in the same area, one may be more extreme than the other but the point is that they have the same result for our purposes, being left at a side.

It is objectively accelerated development, which is a skill. If she can adapt to hax in short periods of time, that bears mentioning. Also, how would it even translate to intelligence? Just being smart won't make you see through illusions.

Well, it's either this or downright a resistance, which'd make this not a skill feat to begin with.
Adapting to hax is not Accelerated Development, that's Reactive Evolution, which is not usable for these skill purposes and it's clear you're even intending on this (adapting to hax) being at play.

Meiling is repeatedly stated to be a master in martial arts, possessing a well-rounded fighting style with no blind spots and no exploitable weaknesses.

...no exploitable weaknesses for fodder humans as stated.

A character not having any notable weaknesses isn't a major skill feat, most characters in VSBW don't have notable weaknesses yet we don't label that as a big deal or anything.

Bro what

You don't need statements when the context of the feat makes the conclusion obvious - Can you give me an example of one way to win an extended battle against an opponent you don't realize you're fighting without mentioning instinctive reaction? It's the only ability that fits, and your insistence that a statement is required is not only absurd, but hypocritical; Neither IR feat you gave for Sora mentions him doing anything instinctively, and in the first scan, he actually seems fully aware of his surroundings.

Even instincts rely on some degree of involuntary perception if you weren't aware, meaning that if no perception can be made at all then this can't be an usable set of skill feats, instead falling on the ballpark of nonsense that can't be used.

In fact, compare it to Sora's as you're bringing them up, while I can concede on those being minor, they're still better feats out of not being nonsensical feats by being reactable by being normally perceptible and so on.

Youmu isn't actually drunk, she was just driven to madness by Clownpiece's torch. Everyone's just joking about Youmu being drunk because they don't realize she's legitimately trying to kill them. Also like... It's still dodging attacks from a character that is leagues faster than you while sitting down and drinking, and it's not like Clownpiece's torch makes people slower or less skilled. Try dodging machine gun fire while having a picnic and then get back to me on how unimpressive this feat is.

"Just an ability to circumvent an issue" yeah, the issue is not being able to perceive attacks, and the ability is instinctive reaction you baka.

TL;DR: Your points are not only lacking context, but are also deeply hypocritical; If Marisa isn't skilled by this logic, then neither is Sora, so either way you're taking the L.

So, not only you're trying to make a blatant scaling loop of Youmu being above several other characters then getting fodderized by the baseline she's upscaling from to begin with, you're claiming that the characters are "joking" of her being drunk while also being unaware she was actually mad at the time, which if anything further implies this isn't really valid to use as it's clear in terms of performance Youmu was acting poorly in general, to the point of being assumed to be drunk, thus it's quite clear the Clownpiece's torch does make people dumber, it's not like it was used to make some dangerous army or whatever.

The "mind's eye" doesn't inherently means a instinctive reaction, it's vague and I'd assume it's just some sort of supernatural perception that wouldn't be usable for skill purposes as I've mentioned before, which seems quite implied given some of your other points.

I'm not making scaling loops nor claiming characters to be skilled by upscaling to someone that trips over themselves by being actually crippled by some other factor at the time, Sora's situation isn't the same.

Sora has never dealt with Touhou level danmaku, and Marisa can just... dodge. Sora's precision is absolutely pathetic compared to what Marisa has to deal with every single day, like the borderline probability hax-level precision from youkai, or hundreds of knives each with enough accuracy to pierce an apple on someone's head from 100 feet away. Her adaptability means that if Sora doesn't take her down in like a minute at most, she'll already have enough knowledge to copy a decent chunk of his arsenal and fighting style, as well as see through all of his weak spots - At that point, Sora has virtually no way to keep up with her better AD, higher stamina, and overwhelming danmaku, and it's only a matter of time until he's cooked.

Since I didn't mention it before, Marisa is completely unimpeded by having her hearing and color vision stripped from her mid-combat.

The kinds of danmakus Sora has dealt with are actually better by having to worry about the third dimension as discussed a lot previously.

Citation on the apple thing please, on that note Sora actually has better feats on that regards by shooting bees.

Marisa doesn't have a sword nor the means to replicate its functions, it'd be quite a NLF considering the large variety of stuff involved, especially given she barely has dealt at all with physical attackers, a better argument can be made for Sora's ranged options (aka, magic spells), but it'd still be quite limited and Sora has dealt with those anyways.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, now onto the "debunk" of my skill blog, this was my overall reaction (mods, sorry, I was asked to double post):



(Don't take that seriously)

Anyways...

- Sora was capable of opening on Yozora's unusual openings (Yozora will be brought up quite often, so you'll see what I mean) compared to everyone else he fought before, and can even take selfies while weaponless while still dodging anyways (and yeah, that's kinda in-character).

That's not even what's happening; There are very clear gaps between Yozora's attacks, and Sora is taking the pictures then and then dodging immediately after; Saying he's taking selfies while dodging misrepresents the feat. It takes 3 whole seconds for his first attack to land where Sora is, which is more than enough time to press a button on your phone.

That's more of a limitation of Sora's magic, after all, Yozora used one of Sora's powers to do that first move, it's just that slow and compensates by homing into the target, note that Yozora follows up once it has exploded away, in any case Sora clearly still has on the phone whole Yozora is dashing to attack, and he's not shy of directly teleporting too.

- With only a few months of adventures across the multiverse and with next to no training besides his own, Sora could already compete against properly trained formal Keyblade Masters that were far older than him. Xehanort sticks out out of being over 80 years old and having several kinds of proeficiently usable weapons and powers inherited from other characters, which Sora could totally keep up with.

- Could also quickly grasp the usage of several other forms for his Keyblade as soon as he got them, notably also including the capability to pilot a chariot and a transformation of his Keyblade to nanotech that converts to whatever weapon Sora has in mind (which includes basically most Formchanges, see below).

First part is fine, albeit still slower than Marisa's AD. The second part is weird though - Can you show me scans of this? As far as my KH knowledge goes, most Keyblades maintain roughly the same shape across their different forms, so idk if "can master the use of a sword that's very similar to the sword he already has" is notable at all. The chariot thing isn't even relevant lol

It's the whole gimmick of KHIII, and it's elaborated on in the next part of the skill blog.

- Has mastered the usage of several kinds of weapons while also switching between them on the fly to optimize combos, besides a sword (Keyblade), there's also a showcased considerable usage of the following by transforming it (Formchanging), which is also regarded as a more refined technique than dual wielding: Hammer, flag, yo-yos, drill, shield, claws, arrowguns, cannon, (magical) staff, skates and arm blades, nanotech and even more blades. Of note is that he can also dual wield Keyblades (as implied before), triple wield even, and has adapted to backfiring the weapon of the opponent, which has included a scythe and a claymore as well. Later on he also displays the capabiity to wield from 7 swords at once to 20, then way more I can count by doing a danmaku as he directly deflects it himself to opponents.

First part is all good, what with the Formchanging and duel wielding. Triple wielding is where I have an issue; Sora isn't actually wielding these weapons as much as they are just... flying around doing sword shit. That's more like weapon control, which isn't skill based in the slightest. The sword danmaku isn't "wielding multiple weapons at once" either; It's just deflecting physical objects to make an AOE attack; Which does beg the question of if he's actually accurately hitting people with these swords or if he's just firing at will and hoping for the best. Finally, disarming an opponent after they leave themselves wide open for several seconds isn't all that impressive (the second example is even worse, as it's just Sora catching a weapon that's literally being thrown towards him).

Well, Sora clearly is manually wielding them even if telekinesis is involved, note how they stop if he takes damage, he can't just recklessly swing them around as otherwise they'd get in the way, which in fact is the main practical issue of dual wielding in general, so being able to overcome that is a major coordination skill feat.

Multiwielding swords and doing danmaku with them are quite separate things by definition, yes, but also note how I used a comma to denote that I swapped to another related point, rather than using it as if part of a list. In any case, the focus of that feat was to show that Sora is customized to deflecting things from all directions (note how the blades come quickly above and below Sora at the same time). Like most danmaku, the move shines on overwhelming opponents with the sheer amount of blades tossed around, it's not like your Touhou girls even bother aiming their danmaku for every individual bullet to a moving target, instead just mainly focusing on doing visually pretty patterns first then just firing at around the area the opponent is.

- In terms of mobility, besides the countless mobility options applicable to a good portion of the moves usable with the above weapons and stuff, to the point "endless" combos are possible if the opponent lacks straight up notable flight or teleportation, namely by preventing the opponent from having a chance to do much at all, Sora has also displayed the capability to perform aerial dashes, recover quickly after being sent flying (Aerial Recovery) and wall jumping (Flowmotion), let alone the capability to spam Aerial Dodge, acting as a flight enhancement that also minimizes considerably vulnerability.

First and most importantly, are endless combos even canon? Like, I can't possibly imagine making the Ice Climbers skill gods because of wobbling. That aside... all of these moves are pretty typical stuff, a lot of which Marisa can do too (mainly the airdashes and quick recovery, both of which she does in the fighting games), wall jumping is a bog standard platformer move, and I'm not even really sure what I'm looking at with the aerial dodge move or how it relates to skill.

What Nehz already said, it was already accepted in a prior CRT with how they are quite enabled with some moves across the whole series, and basically required to progress at higher difficulties (aka, runs that can't afford damage), so it's more than intended and overall canon, legit a DMC moment.

I was mostly dumping the main mobility options Sora has that aren't just straight up flight per-say (he can fight airbone, after all), they aren't meant to be a major argument or anything, but still something.

- Could go all on his own against an army of 1000 opponents, and displays tactical knowledge out of dividing the work between Donald and Goofy for the whole army, and has been able to keep up with multiple opponents at once, be it with their own fighting styles to synchronized duplicates of the respective character, and Sora can also make avatars of himself to overwhelm opponents as well in synchronization.

By your own admission, the first thing isn't a skill feat, and I'm willing to bet that Sora is vastly superior to a bunch of Heartless - the fodder enemies of KH, to my understanding - to the point where logically he could just blow them all up in one go. Fighting multiple identical clones of a character is technically impressive, but given the Heartless thing, I have to ask if those characters are comparable enough to Sora to pose a threat to begin with - Not to mention, Marisa has no issue fighting off duplicates. Twice. Three times, even.

Sora making duplicates of himself isn't skill. It's duplication. C'mon now. Also, they don't even seem to fight in tandem with him? It looks like they're just motionless until shooting a few projectiles before vanishing.

Yeah, that's fair, but it still shows management of his surroundings even in such circumstances, as for the rest... well, they're end-game bosses, they more than are on his level.

Note how they turn around to consistently aim on a given target, and while it's indeed limited, it's still something.

- Could quickly grasp the concept of programming to the point he can edit code that's changing in real time for a variety of effects, has performed multiple kinds of sports and met tens of cultures across the multiverse, in any case scans for that stuff are on the Intelligence section of the profile.

None of this translates to combat skill. The culture thing is especially funny to me.

I was a bit of a newbie and just listed anything I thought would be remotely of note in there, I can concede this bit that ultimately doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread.

- Like several other characters, Sora has the innate ability to see the remaining health of the opponent, and even has the sense to tell where the opponent is even if he's not directly seeing it.

This falls flat compared to what Marisa can do, so while this is valid it's still not notable here.

Which in turn I've already argued to also (yes, I don't think this is usable for skill either) be hax that shouldn't be used here, lol.

- Can find the "real" Luxord between many duplicate cards before he runs out of time.

The card literally flips around to show Luxord on it. Surely you jest.

"Can you find the king of spades out of all of these cards?" "Well it's probably the one that has a king and a spade symbol on it" "My god, what incredible skill!!!!"

It shows a decent capability at paying attention across a crowd of same-looking stuff (they aren't all openly visible at once, after all), which while minor is still something.

- Could reflect omnidirectional lasers of nonexistencial nature from all directions in synchronization with Riku, later on he has also displayed the capability to do it on his own even while having to worry about unreflectable bullets and surprise attacks.

Now we're talking. By far the best feat here... but there are some glaring problems. First of all, Sora literally sees Xemnas do some flashy magic shit before the attack starts and readies his weapon. That is hard proof against this feat having anything to do with IR. Secondly, how are the lasers being nonexistent relevant, and are there scans that prove this?

It'd have to involve IR given that he's also deflecting lasers behind and above himself, awareness that can't be only given with eye sight. It's relevant as each laser is lethal out of ignoring durability.
Xemnas' whole element is nothingness.

- Has shown the capability to react to attacks from behind with no prior in-universe warning and plenty of teleport-based or "instant" attacks as well, let alone while also having to worry about a nearby danmaku of lasers.

For starters, Yozora actually has a few frames of animation where he "fades in" after teleporting, so it doesn't lack warning or anything. Even so, while this is technically really good spatial awareness and reactions for Sora.... Marisa has fought and beaten teleportation spammers before, even those whose teleportation happens purely on instinct.

The blade literally teleports behind Sora, and the rest makes sense, although I wouldn't put Touhou's teleportation on the same level given the whole deal I've said before on their limited vertical movement.

- Read the Intelligence section on the page in the KHII section for more information, but basically, Sora has shown the capability to quickly replicate skills from his opponents mid-battle, from gambling to teleporting around and jumping.

The gambling thing isn't copying any technique, nor is it even gambling - It's just a test of "press the button at the right time", which really isn't that hard. Copying teleportation is much more notable... but according to Sora's keys, he actually knew how to teleport prior to KH2, so it's not learning a new ability. And you've gotta be high on something to tell me that jumping mid-combat is a notable skill feat.

Yeah, the gambling stuff is fine, I'll concede on that, not that it was a notable skill feat or anything beyond timing skills.

Uh... no, Sora doesn't retain abilities earned in Chain of Memories (namely including the teleportation), which is why the KHII key onwards just mentions that most abilities in KHI were kept at that point, and jumping higher than normal in coordination with teleportation (with the teleportation itself falling as hax and this shouldn't be the main focus, lol), makes it a rather nice skill feat.

So in conclusion, I only see like 4 notable feats here:
-Can become a master Keyblade wielder in a short time.
-Can duel wield and switch weapons on the fly.
-Can reflect dozens of bullets simultaneously.
-Can react to people who spam teleportation.

...Yeah this is a hard Marisa stomp, good lord.

TBH with the whole way I'm seeing Marisa with the information I've been provided there's little stopping Sora from just moving considerably upwards and nuking her from there, let alone abusing the fact her physical options are rather poor out of being less experienced on that area.

 

[Fezzih_007]

ah yes, skill debates, the sh*t hole i swore to never involve myself in no matter the temptation

i hope you guys have fun writing your 5000 word articles, i will be quietly watching this in the background

Still having nightmares about Ram vs Yoriichi?
Because in general, skill debating is not that bad. Discussing with Zabazab just take very long trought.

 

[First_Witch]

VSBler at the prospect of having to write actual arguments in a non-strictly defined ruleset (A actual debate) (They die of shock and horror)

 

[Passersby]

Still having nightmares about Ram vs Yoriichi?
Because in general, skill debating is not that bad. Discussing with Zabazab just take very long trought.

lol, i will have my revenge on that one, but not really, at least he undesrtands what i'm talking about

some mfs gave me nightmares, it felt like arguing with a brick wall

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Holy FVCK those are the worst arguments I've ever seen. I'm gonna enjoy tearing into this after work. See you in 10 hours.

 

[RH0904]

Holy FVCK those are the worst arguments I've ever seen. I'm gonna enjoy tearing into this after work. See you in 10 hours.

Sora's skill is NOT wanked because we got lots of evidence and fact-checked too on top of that.

 

[Da3ggman]

Holy FVCK those are the worst arguments I've ever seen. I'm gonna enjoy tearing into this after work. See you in 10 hours.

Mate, there's no reason to be rude. I suggest you use those 10 hours to calm down.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mate, there's no reason to be rude. I suggest you use those 10 hours to calm down.

There kind of is when he's unironically claiming shit like "all danmaku is 2D because it looks that way in a 2D video game". As well as yet again deliberately ignoring the skill rules lmao

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"all danmaku is 2D because it looks that way in a 2D video game"

There is technically a bit more behind that than just that though I myself have some worries regarding the in-universe perspective and the internal logic involved in this and since I don't know Touhou well I'd like to see what points you can bring up regarding that. I'd also say that stuff like dodging rain or snowflakes under circumstances where that is physically impossible seems like something that would be more supernatural than skill for our purposes. I guess the awareness of a whole lot of small projectiles that this implies would still be notable but performing an impossible feat like that is logically not much better than for example outskilling duplicates that are as skilled as you yourself and therefore being more skilled than yourself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There is technically a bit more behind that than just that though I myself have some worries regarding the in-universe perspective and the internal logic involved in this and since I don't know Touhou well I'd like to see what points you can bring up regarding that. I'd also say that stuff like dodging rain or snowflakes under circumstances where that is physically impossible seems like something that would be more supernatural than skill for our purposes. I guess the awareness of a whole lot of small projectiles that this implies would still be notable but performing an impossible feat like that is logically not much better than for example outskilling duplicates that are as skilled as you yourself and therefore being more skilled than yourself.

Danmaku is treated as 3D in-universe, yes. Characters who experience it firsthand liken it to IRL fireworks, official art outside the games universally depicts danmaku as 3D, and this is - again - using the visual limitations of a 2D game developed by a single man as hard evidence, which is absurd.

Also the dodging rain thing is directly confirmed to be something that can be achieved through physical training alone.

 

[Passersby]

Also the dodging rain thing is directly confirmed to be something that can be achieved through physical training alone.

another one of just because it's fiction doesn't mean physics are a myth type of thing


assuming she is as big as a human that is quite literally physically impossible to do unless she phases trough them, as nehz said, this is not something that can be acheived with skill, this is more on the supernatural side of things

outskilling duplicates that are as skilled as you yourself and therefore being more skilled than yourself.

also bad example, depending on the context this might just be accelerated development/improving mid fight

add the fact that the duplicates have the same talent and abilities as the original and you have a point

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Danmaku is treated as 3D in-universe, yes. Characters who experience it firsthand liken it to IRL fireworks, official art outside the games universally depicts danmaku as 3D, and this is - again - using the visual limitations of a 2D game developed by a single man as hard evidence, which is absurd.

Also the dodging rain thing is directly confirmed to be something that can be achieved through physical training alone.

Okay, that sounds reasonable to me for the most part, so I'd personally take your word on this unless Bobsican has some decisive evidence of that stuff really being 2D with all of the weirdness that implies.

I wasn't talking about the means used to achieve this but what it being physically impossible to achieve would mean for our purposes with your point doing nothing to change anything about that.

also bad example, depending on the context this might just be accelerated development/improving mid fight

add the fact that the duplicates have the same talent and abilities as the original and you have a point

Same talent and abilities are very much intended since we are talking about duplicates which have everything the original has though your point makes me realize that the possibility of duplicates which don't grow stronger or improve or at least don't do so as fast as the original does exist, so this is something to consider.

 

[Da3ggman]

There kind of is when he's unironically claiming shit like "all danmaku is 2D because it looks that way in a 2D video game". As well as yet again deliberately ignoring the skill rules lmao

That still doesn't give you the right to be rude. Tell me, what will this conversation between you two gain if you're being rude? Absolutely nothing, except a higher likelyhood of both of you getting angry. I'm not saying its your fault, because I get that debate can be frustrating, but you should try your best to remain as civil as possible.

 

[Passersby]

Same talent and abilities are very much intended since we are talking about duplicates which have everything the original has though your point makes me realize that the possibility of duplicates which don't grow stronger or improve or at least don't do so as fast as the original does ecist, so this is something to consider.

that was my point when stating unless they have the same abilities and talent, but it seems i didn't make it clear enough, i apologize


anyways,glad to be of help

 

[Deidalius]

Yeah Bobscican's counterargument doesn't convince me that Sora is more skilled than Marisa and he's straight up wrong in some parts.
Touhou danmaku are not 2D. This is confirmed in the manga where the attacks are 3D.

That and Marisa being able to dodge rain, snowflakes, proyectiles that are harder to dodge than rain due to being less randomly spread and more concentrated on attacking
And Marisa doing magic feats that weren't possible before in-verse
Seals the deal for me, Marisa's more skilled than Sora. I vote for her. ;P

 

[Nehz_XZX]

That and Marisa being able to dodge rain, snowflakes

Physically impossible feats should not be considered for skill purposes as far as I'm aware due to being logically unquantifiable.

 

[Deidalius]

Physically impossible feats should not be considered for skill purposes as far as I'm aware due to being logically unquantifiable.

Even if Rain and Snowflakes were the size of normal dodgeable proyectiles, Marisa would absolutely be able to dodge the danmaku patterns of rain.

 

[Bobsican]

...That's downright a skill standard currently Deidalius, this is part of why Dante was yeeted from the skill list.

Anyways, I'd wait for evidence for danmaku patterns in Touhou being significantly 3D.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Even if Rain and Snowflakes were the size of normal dodgeable proyectiles, Marisa would absolutely be able to dodge the danmaku patterns of rain.

I don't think that this is the point here. If there is physically not enough space available for dodging, then this does not logically add to the amount of skill displayed since the impossible would be outside of the purview of what we would understand as skill. In the first place hypothetically increasing the size of rain and snowflakes like you do would run into some issues since for example they would overlap with each other if the area, the quantity and the relative positions of the rain drops and snowflakes to each other remain the same and changing those would defeat the point of a feat like this in the first place since that would be a regular Danmaku instead of anything approaching a weather phenomenon like raining or snowfall.

 

[Passersby]

Even if Rain and Snowflakes were the size of normal dodgeable proyectiles, Marisa would absolutely be able to dodge the danmaku patterns of rain.

misses the entire point as the very act of dodging can never occur if there is no space to move to, changing the size or properties of the projectiles changes nothing as a character can never dodge attacks when there is no safe space he can consider moving to in order to avoid said attack which consitute the entire point of what dodging even means

this feat simple falls on the supernatural side as it can never even be considered skill

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Anyways, I'd wait for evidence for danmaku patterns in Touhou being significantly 3D.

Are you asking for scans? Official art and manga panels don't seem like something that would be hard to find but you can indeed wait for it to be provided if you want to.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I gonna wait Fujiwara to make the rebutall, so i can vote.

Seems like Starshooter take this trought.

 

[Passersby]

I gonna wait Fujiwara to make the rebutall, so i can vote.

Seems like Starshooter take this trought.

meh, looking at her characters, they seem to have quite a bit of impressive skill and int feats so i don't really think we can make conclusions this early


let's wait for her reply and, she seems confident

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Physically impossible feats should not be considered for skill purposes as far as I'm aware due to being logically unquantifiable.

Even if we discount the actual movement tech as impossible, that would still be a skill feat for analysis, perception and timing.

She is accurately predicting a dodging pattern out of seemingly random elements, being capable of not only coming on top, but be able to keep up an offensive maneuver. It would be akin to countering while dodging in boxing.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Even if we discount the actual movement tech as impossible, that would still be a skill feat for analysis, perception and timing.

She is accurately predicting a dodging pattern out of seemingly random elements, being capable of not only coming on top, but be able to keep up an offensive maneuver. It would be akin to countering while dodging in boxing.

I'd also say that stuff like dodging rain or snowflakes under circumstances where that is physically impossible seems like something that would be more supernatural than skill for our purposes. I guess the awareness of a whole lot of small projectiles that this implies would still be notable but performing an impossible feat like that is logically not much better than for example outskilling duplicates that are as skilled as you yourself and therefore being more skilled than yourself.

I've already acknowledged the perception that would be involved.

 

[Passersby]

Even if we discount the actual movement tech as impossible, that would still be a skill feat for analysis, perception and timing.

She is accurately predicting a dodging pattern out of seemingly random elements, being capable of not only coming on top, but be able to keep up an offensive maneuver. It would be akin to countering while dodging in boxing.

it's impossible so anaylze and preceive patterns to preform something that's physically impossible to acheive, there is no pattern to predict no timing to analyze and no movement to be made when there is no safe space to move to in the first place, which is the entire point of dodging

nothing in this skill, this is a supernatural feat

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I've already acknowledged the perception that would be involved.

I'd say should be taken as a bit more notable than that, which is why I feel does bear repeating. It is 100% a stupidly insane feat, but the actual elements involved once analyzed does give us a bit more than just perception. Timing is very key in that feat, as just one error on her attempt to dodge that would result in a hit. She can not only dodge, but also attempt an offensive maneuver at the same time. That's very good quantifiable skill, despite the supernatural element involved.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

it's impossible so anaylze and preceive patterns to preform something that's physically impossible to acheive, there is no pattern to predict no timing to analyze and no movement to be made when there is no safe space to move to in the first place, which is the entire point of dodging

nothing in this skill, this is a supernatural feat

It still involves a quantifiable action.

An offensive maneuver would have a hard time touching her since she's able to accurately predict multiple at once. That's the feat at its bare minimum. This action in itself is not impossible. What is impossible is the spacing, which is another thing entirely and can easily be dismissed.

But the analysis and timing? Hell nah. That's notable.

 

[Bobsican]

Strictly speaking it's achieved by skill, yes, but at the same time feats that are downright physically impossible even with superhuman stats or flight are ignored for the purposes of the skill list, as said before this kind of feats have been dismissed out of that for those purposes.

It'd be inappropiate to try to make a feat usable by just ignoring one part of what's involved then retaining the rest, it's cherry picking at its finest.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Complex skill showings involve multiple things. If for the purposes of the list you have decided to just scrap the entire thing, fair enough. But I'd say the quantifiable and notable parts should still be acknowledged.

Guess that's the last thing from me, as I haven't taken that much an in depth look on the rest of the debate.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'd say should be taken as a bit more notable than that, which is why I feel does bear repeating. It is 100% a stupidly insane feat, but the actual elements involved once analyzed does give us a bit more than just perception. Timing is very key in that feat, as just one error on her attempt to dodge that would result in a hit. She can not only dodge, but also attempt an offensive maneuver at the same time. That's very good quantifiable skill, despite the supernatural element involved.

I didn't say that perception is everything that is left once you leave the movement out. My main concern was the impossibility of the overall feat and what it would mean for our purposes, so I just made a small comment regarding the awareness involved since that came to my mind. I wouldn't have an issue with further analysis of what parts of the feats aren't made unquantifiable due to impossibility.

Strictly speaking it's achieved by skill, yes, but at the same time feats that are downright physically impossible even with superhuman stats or flight are ignored for the purposes of the skill list, as said before this kind of feats have been dismissed out of that for those purposes.

It'd be inappropiate to try to make a feat usable by just ignoring one part of what's involved then retaining the rest, it's cherry picking at its finest.

I'm not sure what the exact standards are in regards to analyzing certain aspects of such feats and trying to quantify them independently but I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a debate about that unfold.

 

[Passersby]

It still involves a quantifiable action.

the entire problem in the feat is that it tries to use a quantifiable action in order to perform an impossible feat, which gives nothing on the stats nor abilities of the character as the feat mentioned to performed can never be acheived, which is the entire point of why it's unquantifiable and supernatural

An offensive maneuver would have a hard time touching her since she's able to accurately predict multiple at once.

based on what?

this is just an assumption made on the foundation of a statement that she could perform something that can never be physically acheived, which gives no information on her actual skiils or apabilities, actual and quantifiable feats are needed to determine this

That's the feat at its bare minimum. This action in itself is not impossible. What is impossible is the spacing, which is another thing entirely and can easily be dismissed.

the action itself is impossible, that's the whole point of this argument

But the analysis and timing? Hell nah. That's notable.

notable on what basis?

there is no timing to take into consideration here, you can't time your movements to dodge something like rain

this feat is still supernatural in nature

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Anyways, I'd wait for evidence for danmaku patterns in Touhou being significantly 3D.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation...

the action itself is impossible, that's the whole point of this argument

there is no timing to take into consideration here, you can't time your movements to dodge something like rain

this feat is still supernatural in nature

Yeah, there as well may be no characters beyond light speed, or can bust a multiverse at ease, sure... I wonder when people will understand...

 

[Bobsican]

Let me put it like this, dodging every droplet of water from rain is like dodging the solid parts of a cheese grinder and passing across it, humans are just too big for that even with superhuman speed or careful movement.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And... as expected, you relied on the spell card stuff.

Well, I have news for you, they were retconned on this regard (not as a whole, before you nitpick) and so can't be used for skill purposes.

Nowadays they aren't even an object per-say, but rather just characters having the formality to call their attacks before doing them, and fancy visual effects.
Meaning that using them to argue skill in general seems rather inappropiate as they aren't accurate to the character's capabilities after the retcon.

What does this have to do with skill? Like, they're not physical cards, sure, but I never claimed that to begin with? They're still attacks that are given a name and specific shape (usually danmaku), so characters being able to use these attacks skillfully, learn how they work, or dodge them is still perfectly valid. They're still contests of skill, so we can use them to scale characters in skill.

Like, what are you trying to prove here? What's even your point? This is all just so incredibly baffling to me, because not only does it not relate to the debate at hand, but it also debunks a point I never made.

"No timestamp .
Do you expect me to see a 30 minutes video? If anything all I'm seeing is that the danmakus are just brute forced past with invulnerability frames than actually dodging a good amount of the time, which'd devalue the claimed skill involved, and going by the comments it doesn't seem even possible to do a no-hit run without this game mechanics abuse."

The timestamp is in the video, though? I double checked, the link leads to the moment where the fight with Tenshi starts, so what are you even asking for here? Also, the "invincibility frames" are grazing, which is a canon mechanic and is literally just having a "near-miss" with a projectile. Also I... never said anything about a no-hit run? Not for this game, at least.

"And how such stuff is done is also a factor, someone manually copying skill by analyzing all details involved and replicating the movements accordingly is far more impressive than someone copying skill with an ability that does the work for them out of this.

Also refer to what First Witch said before, this is just an ability (or set of) and does not fall as analytical skill to begin with out of that."

...Okay, that's all true, but Marisa still has better enhanced senses because nothing you've given Sora comes even remotely close. You can't just say "well Marisa needs better feats than Sora for this to count" and then... not debunk the part where I explained how and why Marisa has better feats.

"Time to argue that a character with Cosmic Awareness and/or Omniscience bodies the skill list, lol.
...Yeah, refer to what I said before."

Complain about it all you want, but it won't make enhanced senses a valid measurement of skill. And in case you're wondering, characters with CA/omniscience would not only not be allowed, but they'd have to be skilled in other areas as well; Enhanced senses is one of many categories. I'm effectively taking this as a concession on the enhanced senses point, because you keep outright ignoring the rules regarding it.

"And this is either just a resistance to those tracking abilities (no combat skill is involved here as aid before), or just falls as a nonsense skill feat to not use if you can't even explain it beyond "she's that good", one thing is skill far beyond human limits and another is feats that downright defy logic in general."

If we discarded every skill feat beyond human limits, then Sora wouldn't qualify either (although if a video exists of an IRL guy doing the Xemnas laser thing, I'd love to see it). It's stealth that bypasses enhanced senses and ESP, which is fine because those abilities are not inherently flawless - There is a way to bypass them if you know how.

Also, it's combat skill for Marisa via her stealth, I didn't say anyone else in that section was skilled. Stealth is a perfectly fine way to measure skill because it requires excellent spatial awareness, awareness of your opponent and their senses, as well as good bodily control (measured breathing, steady movements, stuff like that). And before you go "oh so Solid Snake is a skill god-", may I remind you yet again that skill has multiple categories and methods of measurement, and this is just one.

Oh yes, time to claim random Pokémon are as skilled as Patchuoli, merely abusing elemental weaknesses is more of a matter of basic strategy than combat skill, which while valid and all it's extremely minor as it's like just using salt on a slug over using oil.

Most of these abilities are either useless on a vs context (lol reading books by placing the hand over them), or just elemental abilities, which doesn't change much considering how attacks in the verse are generally treated, aka, either they do about as much damage as other attacks or they just one shot.

1. ...You did not read my explanation. It's not a matter of "oh Marisa takes more damage from elemental attacks", it is literally written into the mechanics of the verse that her magic should be nullified on contact and the odds are overwhelmingly stacked in her opponent's favor... but she wins anyways. Being able to one-up someone who hard counters your one and only method of fighting is incredibly skillful; If we're going the Pokemon route, then it's like beating a team full of ground-types with nothing but an electric-type (a little different but the general idea applies).

2. Right, and you later claim that Sora dodging a bunch of one-shot attacks is impressive, so what's the deal? Besides, you're deliberately going after the worst examples on the list and not the good examples I listed, like fighting with all of one's senses distorted and having their perception of reality change on a second-to-second basis, or fighting people who spam time stop, both as a way to set up sudden attacks (which do appear from nowhere, from Marisa's perspective), and as a means of teleportation.

"TBH I think even the danmaku here it a bit overrated, considering it's always 2D, one can't help but wonder how difficult to dodge it really is in-universe, it even seems the attacks are really what they look like considering some details given in a interview:

And before you call game mechanics (unless a 3D bullet hell Touhou thing ever happened in detail or so, lol), this is a common trope, so this stuff is quite devalued in practical terms.

Well, it isn't that easy to find some proper display of jumping skills for Mario or dodging feats for Sonic, plus I didn't knew much about Touhou beyond bullet hell and a ton of girls being involved. Either way, refer to my previous point of dodging 2D danmakus being worse than dodging 3D ones in practical terms (for example, I wouldn't be sure if Marisa can dodge this given what I said)."

I hope you're joking. No, Bob, a game being 2D does not mean everyone in the verse and their attacks are limited to the X and Y axis. Plenty of official art shows danmaku in 3D (wow!). People who see danmaku up close and personal liken them to fireworks, which are 3D explosions (in case you didn't know). There are spell cards that cannot be 2D by their very nature, such as clouds of mist, sound waves, tornadoes, or poisonous gas. The fighting games showcase danmaku that moves into the background and foreground, showing that there is a third axis - one that isn't used in gameplay because, y'know, it is a fvcking video game made by a small team of people who don't make games in 3D good fvcking lord did you even TRY to think this one through

Also, Miko's 17 laser spell card is only like that because it's a reference to this (because it's a document authored by Prince Shotoku, whom the spell card user is a reincarnation of). ZUN's just saying how a spell card's name and origins influence its visual design.

"To further show the point, the fact she couldn't just fly above a mountain heavily implies that she can't just freely fly vertically, thus making it quite reasonable to claim that danmakus in the verse aren't that good in practical terms in-verse, namely compared to Sora, who can freely move vertically and has dealt with more complex danmakus in practical terms given these details."

Sigh. Like, I don't even wanna try with this one.

"A unquantificable one as you'd then be trying to upscale from a character with no notable achievements on this regard to begin with."

I... never scaled her to that character to begin with, though? I just said that she mastered the use of a new weapon in hours, and the creator of it called her brilliant. The strawmanning is getting a little absurd.

"It's important, yes, but at the same time... well, she actually bothers asking the users for details, so her innate information analysis isn't that good."

Not only does Reimu explicitly not know what the hell she's talking about (given the "she's bad at explaining things" line), but Touhou characters are known to lie about how their powers work. This is also excluding characters like Cirno or Rumia, who are dumb as shit and would have legitimately no idea how their powers work. So Marisa is figuring this shit out on her own, as well as dealing with any potential misinformation at the same time.

"Well, see the above, we don't know the exact timeframe and given the above it'd be quite assumptive she instanly found all of that out by seeing it the first time, also refer to the other stuff I said regarding skill cards for our purposes."

Well for starters, aren't you trying to also claim that timeframes are irrelevant? Pick a side, jfc. Anyways, this is the one and only time she sees that attack, so like... yeah, what other assumption is there? She sees it once, and then knows how it works and can replicate it.

"In terms of difficulty I could bring up how some bosses are intended to be extremely difficult to players."

This is completely useless; A perfect LoLK run is not only acknowledge as a feat in-universe, but is quite literally the canon ending. A boss being designed to be difficult to an out of universe player means absolutely nothing for in-universe skill.

"It is impressive, but here we're just talking about the supernatural effort between abilities just to perform... manipulation of other elements, rather than some more strategic stuff or similar as mentioned in EliminatorVenom's skill blog I keep linking, hence unquantificable and not that big of a deal for these purposes.

Well, not only it was written by a former mod, looking at the comments you can see other mods being fine with it, so at the very least it's worth keeping in mind."

Which again translates to combat skill, because it is her main method of combat. That's like saying "being able to throw cards accurately isn't a skill feat because cards aren't used for combat" in regards to a character who uses cards in combat.

Ah, right, so you admit the blog isn't official in any capacity. Cool

"Thing is that one thing is the effort behind using the magic at all, and another is using the magic itself cleverly as said before. Swordfighting has no issue with that as training some unusual affinity isn't required and inherently has more clever feats than just blindly shooting elemental stuff."

Calling Touhou danmaku "blindly shooting" when it's an in-universe art form where beauty and the representation of concepts reign supreme is crazy. By that logic, Sora's just blindly swinging his sword and getting lucky.

"TBH this just comes off as a coincidence than a proper display of analytical skill, I'll remind that this kind of analysis also isn't on a combat applicable area.

Those were meant to be quite minor points, especially as they aren't mostly usable in combat, rather than something I'd heavily rely on."

[citation needed]

"Well, it's either this or downright a resistance, which'd make this not a skill feat to begin with.
Adapting to hax is not Accelerated Development, that's Reactive Evolution, which is not usable for these skill purposes and it's clear you're even intending on this (adapting to hax) being at play."

...That's not what it is. RE is a reaction to a direct attack (eg; someone shoots a fireball at me and then I resist it), AD is just gaining shit passively or through training (ie; I don't resist fire, but then I punch a few guys and now I do). So yes, this is AD despite your insistence that it isn't, please god doesn't ANYONE on this wiki read the ability pages AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

"...no exploitable weaknesses for fodder humans as stated.

A character not having any notable weaknesses isn't a major skill feat, most characters in VSBW don't have notable weaknesses yet we don't label that as a big deal or anything."

That first part isn't even in the text. There are parts saying her fighting style just has no weaknesses, verbatim. And yes, it is a skill feat when a person's fighting style possesses no weak points, since a fighting style is a representation of martial skill.

"Even instincts rely on some degree of involuntary perception if you weren't aware, meaning that if no perception can be made at all then this can't be an usable set of skill feats, instead falling on the ballpark of nonsense that can't be used."

No, they don't. IR can in fact be used without any perception of what's happening, subconscious or otherwise.

"So, not only you're trying to make a blatant scaling loop of Youmu being above several other characters then getting fodderized by the baseline she's upscaling from to begin with, you're claiming that the characters are "joking" of her being drunk while also being unaware she was actually mad at the time, which if anything further implies this isn't really valid to use as it's clear in terms of performance Youmu was acting poorly in general, to the point of being assumed to be drunk, thus it's quite clear the Clownpiece's torch does make people dumber, it's not like it was used to make some dangerous army or whatever."

They say that because they also mention that Youmu's somewhat of a mean drunk, so it's as basic as "Youmu's at a drinking party and is attacking people, so it's probably because she's drunk and is just an asshole while she's wasted". Clownpiece's torch is never shown to affect performance; You say it was never used to make a dangerous army, but in LoLK it quite literally was (being used to strengthen an army of fairies invading the moon).

And yes Bob, it is possible to dodge attacks from people faster than you via predicting or reading their movements. Aim dodging, analytical precog, and so on have existed for ages. The difficulty involved increases massively as the speed gap increases, but it is still feasible despite being a crazy skill feat.

"Citation on the apple thing please, on that note Sora actually has better feats on that regards by shooting bees."

Here. Your turn now, because I'd really like to see the bee thing.

"Marisa doesn't have a sword nor the means to replicate its functions, it'd be quite a NLF considering the large variety of stuff involved, especially given she barely has dealt at all with physical attackers, a better argument can be made for Sora's ranged options (aka, magic spells), but it'd still be quite limited and Sora has dealt with those anyways."

I was referring to his magic in the first place you baka. Also like... Marisa deals with physical attackers all the time?? Meiling, Suika, Youmu, Remilia, Saki, and Yuugi are all physical combat oriented opponents that Marisa has fought and defeated. So there's nothing stopping her from just... dodging, analyzing, copying, and wearing Sora down while he effectively can't touch her.

Anyways, I'm gonna take a break before getting to the KH stuff. This already drained the life out of me.