One Punch Man Multipliers

[ByAsura]

No. It's just way too speculative. Just saying under 50% is the most fair.

It's not portrayed as a new way of reaching full power, though, just a new style. He's not constantly vibrating in the chapter against Nyan (a technique he only discovered minutes before their fight).

 

[SuperAPM]

We know he doesn't start off at 50% as a base, and simply leaving the multiplier at 2x is far to much of a lowball given that. Its by far the least speculative option we have.

It doesn't increase his output to full power, it increase's the power of whatever precent level he's currently at. If he activated it at 50% it could possibly reach the same level of power as his 100% state, but if he activated it whilst at 100% it would also increase the power of said state past what it normally is. The technique itself is clearly activation based and can be switched on and off when needed, and its also extremely finite given its power source.

 

[ByAsura]

That doesn't mean he starts at 1/4th, we've only seen the physical changes of 50 and 100% as well. Anything under 50% is the least speculative, 25% is based on speculation.

So why was this even relevant in the first place?

 

[SuperAPM]

We have seen the physical difference between his first two states, his increase up to 50% buffed his body to the point that he ripped his sweater to shreds. That's almost identical to his increase up to 100% where his muscles expand to the point that his prison uniform also rips to shreds.

What on earth multiplier would you pick then? Simply going with a definitive 2x multiplier is an extreme lowball given that we know its higher, but we obviously can't just pick a random under that. Again, I picked 25% because it's exactly halfway between 1-50%, even if speculative its the fairest option out of any percentage present.

I don't understand why it is too speculative. PPP has 3 known states of power, and we know that the latter two have a 2x power difference between them, why would it be too speculative to say the first to states also have a 2x power difference?

 

[Tetsucabrah]

We have seen the physical difference between his first two states, his increase up to 50% buffed his body to the point that he ripped his sweater to shreds. That's almost identical to his increase up to 100% where his muscles expand to the point that his prison uniform also rips to shreds.

What on earth multiplier would you pick then? Simply going with a definitive 2x multiplier is an extreme lowball given that we know its higher, but we obviously can't just pick a random under that. Again, I picked 25% because it's exactly halfway between 1-50%, even if speculative its the fairest option out of any percentage present.

I don't understand why it is too speculative. PPP has 3 known states of power, and we know that the latter two have a 2x power difference between them, why would it be too speculative to say the first to states also have a 2x power difference?

Agreed.

 

[ByAsura]

It's speculation to apply one multiplier to another. That doesn't automatically mean it's the same, shredding clothes has nothing to do with specific values of power, he just becomes large enough to do it.

I'm not picking a random one, it's just under 50, meaning any calcs will be twice as much in his 100% state.

Because we only know of one state that has this multiplier.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

I would appreciate a summary, if possible.

 

[ByAsura]

We're still deciding.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[SuperAPM]

I understand it is speculation. We have long established that it is speculation. The issue with your stance is that you haven't argued why my specific speculation is unreasonable, you've only argued that it being speculation at all means that under no circumstance can it be used. Which I'm sorry is just ridiculous. I understand trying to keep speculation to an absolute minimum, but at certain points its a better alternative to simply using nothing.

Because that right there is the crux of the issue; Sticking with just a simple 2x multiplier is downplay to an extreme degree. I've repeated this line to you three times already. We know he starts off lower than 50%, we know his multiplier would be higher than 2x.

At some point we have to remember that Occam's Razor exists for a reason. We know he has three forms, we know two of those has a 2x difference between them. Aside from being an equal midpoint between the values under 50%, we at least have a basis for 2x in general. Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying, I'm not saying any of this is definative. I understand the possibility that it might be different, I understand more than anyone that relying on speculation too much to be an issue. I am simply asking why the specific form of speculation that I have presented here to be unreasonable in and of itself, not why speculation itself is a problem. If you've really resided to sticking to a 2x multiplier despite that blatantly being incorrect then we're kinda at an impass here and will probably just continue in circles, at which point this debate becomes pointless.

 

[ByAsura]

I have. But you just keep repeating the same points as if it can't be anything else. Arguing with you is pointless. Of course it's higher than 2x, but to an unknown extent.

It's not about Occam's Razor. A progression of 50 to 100% tearing clothes doesn't mean 25 to 50% will do the same. Occam's Razor literally says "Entities should not be multiplied without necessity." The most logical action is to just say he's weaker.

 

[SuperAPM]

No you haven't. I have given a fairly detailed explanation as to why my chosen value is the fairest assumption to make. All you've done is disregard it solely on the basis of it being an assumption. That is the entire crux of your argument.

You understand that this entire situation is explicitly a case of an entity needing to be multiplied with absolute necessity. Becuase we know for a fact that he has a total multiplier higher than just 2x, and simply leaving it at that is both an egregious lowball, and just plainly wrong. I chose 25% as a starting point because it is exactly half way between 1-50%, thereby being the fairest option between everything whilst still acknowledging the fact that it should be higher than a simple 2x multiplier.

 

[ByAsura]

You haven't given a fair and reasonable explanation. The entire crux of your argument is that his clothes rip when transforming from 50 to 100%, so it must do the same when he goes from 25 to 50%, and now you're saying that it's a starting point due to being halfway between. Both make no sense and haven't been established. For all we know, he could've been at literally any amount less than 50%, such as 33%.

We know for a fact that he's stronger, we don't know that he's twice as strong. We only know his 100% form is twice as strong as his 50% form, we've been given no information about what amount of power he used against that Deep Sea King-level monster.

It's not the fairest assumption. The fairest would be the one with the least assumptions, and that's an unknown amount less than 50%. It's also objectively true.

 

[SuperAPM]

....Are you serious? That's actually your summation of my argument?

The entire crux of my argument is that we blatantly know for a fact that PPP starts off below 50% and therefore has a higher multiplier than 2x. Ergo we have to agree to a reasonably higher multiplier.

The entire reaso I picked 25% as a baseline is because it is exactly half way between 1-50%, thus being the fairest throughline between everything available. Choosing anywhere from 26-49% or 1-24% is just arbitrarily favoring one side over the other in terms of either lowballing or highballing him. Surely you can agree with this point if nothing else.

Any mention I made of his transistion between him going from 50-100% is at best supporting evidence. By itself it proves nothing, I've acknowldeged this fact. If you truly believe that was ever my main point, you haven't read through my posts properly.

Sticking to 2x is the least assumptive decision available. It is also blatantly incorrect. That is why I find sticking to it to be extremely contentious. Again, I know my option is an assumption, but as I've repeated several times already its a necessary assumption to make in order to get the most accurate multiplier. I already explained why I chose the value given, all I've wanted you to do is explain why this choice specifically is arbitrary in and of itself, not why making assumptions in general is not ideal in the first place.

 

[ByAsura]

I agree it's lower than 50%, but it's also an unknown.

You need better reasoning than "half-way between is the most fair." It's not the most fair, it's a made up number and I don't care what logic you use. Just an unknown amount less than 50% is the most fair and reasonable here.

It's late here, so I didn't exactly think about it.

It's not. It's completely arbitrary; you're saying that the best option is to go with the middle ground because we don't have all the facts. That's completely wrong, you choose the low-ball when you don't know all the facts.

 

[SuperAPM]

We don't automatically go with the low end. We go with whatever's the most reasonable option available to us. Sometimes even the high end of something is more reasonable. We may not have all the facts, but we know enough to say that its higher than a simple 2x multiplier. Simply going with that isn't reasonable in the slightest, its an extreme lowball and a blatant falsehood. I picked 25% because it's exactly halfway between lowballing and highballing him, I don't know how much clearer I can make this. Simply saying its arbitrary isn't good enough reason to dismiss it.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes we do. When there's pretty much nothing concrete, and there is nothing. High-ends are used if there's enough proof. This is why numbers aren't assigned to scaling chains unless we have some form of value.

That's not reasonable. I don't know how clear I can make that. And it makes no sense since the exact value is unknown, you can't just assign a value based completely on conjecture and what you believe is more reasonable. What you're arguing for is the definition of false.

It is arbitrary because he could be at literally any power level before 50%. I don't know how many times I have to tell you this. Your suggestion just doesn't work.

You're still high-balling him, you're just splitting hairs about it. 50% isn't a falsehood, and neither is 25% technically, but we just don't have enough to go off. Plus, 25% is really just low-balling and high-balling at the same time in this case.

 

[SuperAPM]

Sigh We really are at the stage where we just mindlessly repeat each point ad nauseum.

So let me state this one more time, again:

I understand that the actual value could be completely different. I've admitted this several times before. The entire reason I picked 25% is because it is an exact middle ground between arbitrarily lowballing and highballing him. I gave an actual reason as to why I picked this rather than just randomly picking it out of a hat like you've suggested. I understand this value isn't concrete, I haven't stated otherwise.

I am not highballing him, please don't reduce my argument down to that. I couldn't have picked out a more middling option if I tried. You haven't given a reason why its arbitrary beyond simply saying it is. And at this point I'm gonna guess it's going to continue down this road until one of us gives up due to boredom. If you truly have nothing more to say, do consider whether or not posting that has any actual merit to it. If that ends up being the case then apologies, but I have better things to do.

And for the love of God please take the time to post everything you want to say in your first post instead of editing it in after 10 minutes

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, we are. Well, I am, you're free to stop whenever.

I'm not suggesting we pick it out of a hat. I've been arguing against that this whole time, and suggesting that we used 50% as a low-ball because the value is unknown.

I said you're both high-balling and low-balling him in this case, not just the former. You haven't given a good reason for why it isn't, honestly, and 25% having less assumptions than the other options doesn't mean it isn't arbitrary.

I have given a reason; it's arbitrary because you're assigning an unknown value—one that has a chance of being any number between 1 and 50—with no real rhyme or reason other than "it's not wank or downplay." That's not how this works, you can't just add a value because it's vague otherwise, unless it's a low-ball (I only mean in the context of this situation).

Don't act all high and mighty, you've been saying the same drivel for days now without any new arguments. My points don't change because your points are also glacial. Also, I'm on break rn, so I don't have anything else to do, sadly.

It's called hindsight, and I also use it to fix grammatical errors or sentence structure. Sorry if I'm being passive aggressive, I just can't deal with this either.

 

[SuperAPM]

Sigh You still have not explained why it is faulty. All you've said is that it being an assumption in and of itself makes it faulty. You've acknowledged and even seemed to agree with my explanation of why it isn't arbitrary or at the very least is the least arbitrary option available, and have just rejected it without a concrete reason. Again, simply claiming that I haven't explained my choice does not actually prove anything.

I'm well aware you're only arguing to stick with a simple 2x multiplier, the entire crux of my argument is that this option is wrong because we know for a fact that its higher. I know we have nothing concrete, that's exactly why i chose the most middling option I could find. I've acknowledged the fact that it isn't 100% accurate several times already.

You do understand that the entire point of my last comment was the fact that I had to repeat my main point again with no variation present. I stated specifically that we're both just going to repeat each other's points ad nauseum. What on Earth gave you the impression that I thought I was a cornucopia of original arguments?

"I said you're both high-balling and low-balling him in this case, not just the former."

Cough

"You're still high-balling him, you're just splitting hairs about it."

I don't know what to interpret here to be honest since I know you state I'm doing both a sentence later. What was actually the point of this part?

 

[ByAsura]

I've addressed this so many times; picking a middle point doesn't make it any less arbitrary. You're still grabbing a number from nowhere about of 1-50 just because it's in the middle of the scale. It still has an equal probability of being wrong or right. On the other hand, we know for an objective fact that he's stronger than his 50% self and can use that low-ball. This proves, dare I say objectively, that using the low-ball is the more logical option.

I haven't agreed to that. I've actually said it's the least arbitrary argument after sticking with the low-ball. So I mean it's arbitrary, but not as arbitrary as you can get.

25% is equally wrong because we're not lead to believe it's that low. We're not lead to believe anything except it's weaker, so you go for the low-ball, not a made up value. Just stop with this already.

"If you truly have nothing more to say, do consider whether or not posting that has any actual merit to it." You said both.

To show that (a) your points have the same flaws you claim mine do, and (b) to add yet another point to the list of faults your suggestions have.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise each side in this argument? Perhaps I can be of help.

 

[ByAsura]

Pri-Pri-Prisoner's form he used to break out of prison and kill a Deep-Sea King-level monster wasn't large enough to break his sweater. His 50% form is large enough to shred it during the transformation.

I'm arguing that we low-ball it to 50%, while APM (if I'm not misconstruing his points) is arguing that it should be 25% because it's the middle ground between 1-50%, thus neither excessively low-balling or high-balling him.

I have a problem with this because it creates a 4x power boost without confirmation.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems safer with a lowball. It is also our usual practice for uncertain calculations as far as I am aware, so it should be best here as well.

 

[SuperAPM]

I'm arguing for his multiplier to be higher than 2x because we know for a fact that he starts off lower than 50%. The reasons Asura gave as to why I picked 25% are correct. I understand this is speculative, I just find it more accurate than simply leaving it at 2x since we know its higher than that.

Sigh At this point tho I'm willing to concede if Ant thinks it unwise to use my suggeted value.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So what we got is

PPP (100%) > PPP (50%)  Standard PPP > Stronger than Hammerhead, who Sonic saw preform a Low 7-C feat.

 

[SuperAPM]

Yeah, basically. After everything was decided I wanted to discuss how everyone should scale in light of this. For instance 50% PPP managed to cave DSK's face in, but we know for a fact that he's at most 2x weaker than him in that state given that a full on barrage at 100% barely singed his arms. The full conclusion to this was that if a punch that caves DSK's face in isn't enough for him to fully scale, I don't believe his performance against him at 100% would warrant full on scaling either.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

I still think there should be some form of multiplier for Deep Sea King. Even if it is a miniscule one.

Sonic went from being able to bruise and flinch Sea King to Sea King saying he couldn't even feel his attacks anymore.

 

[SuperAPM]

Actually, Sonic's rating would be even more up for debate given this. He did substantially less damage to DSK than even 50% PPP did, but DSK states that his attacks don't hurt at all. Keep in mind that tho Hydrated, he states this after first revealing his true form to Sonic on the top of the rooftop, when Sonic had previously only attacked DSK's Dry form. Which means his attacks could barely dent his dry form and did substantially less damage than 50% PPP.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sonic's rating includes his weapons, which ONE said would be enough to beat a Dehydrated DSK. His physicals (besides speed), is likely worse than PPP.

 

[SuperAPM]

Yeah, I did consider that. The issue I have with it tho is how complicated its going to make scaling for both him and others like him.

Another thing is that an actual sword strike only scrathed Hammerhead's arm. Its possible that it was a casual attack, and this did happen before Sonic starting training to surpass Saitama. But as I recall he only had a weeks worth of training before being captured by the police and sent to prison and then breaking out with PPP. So I don't know how to properly rate him to be honest.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

I don't understand how Puri caving in someone's face isn't grounds for scaling. Yeah he's supposed to be weaker, but 2 tiers weaker?

 

[Antvasima]

Tetsucabrah seems to make a good point.

 

[SuperAPM]

My proposal was just hypothetical, I wanted to see everyone's points about it. My issue is that since we know him caving in his face isn't enough to warrant scaling since he's at minimum 2x weaker in that state, I don't see the full barrage he pulled off at 100% only barely singing his arms warranting full on scaling either. At the very least I don't see him full on scaling to 113 Kilotons, and I don't know how to backscale from this point.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

In any other verse dislocating someone's jaw would be grounds for scaling. I don't understand why OPM is the only series with these super strict scaling methods.

 

[Antvasima]

@Tetsucabra

I agree about that.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

So why does downscaling PPP to low 7-C make more sense than having Sea King slightly higher into High 7-C?

 

[SuperAPM]

I've acknowledged that it normally would be grounds for scaling. The issue here is that the feat was performed whilst he was at 50%, and given his performance at 100% we know for a fact that he was at least 2x weaker than DSK when he clobbered his face. If he can do something like that whilst being 2x weaker I don't see his performance against him at 100% warranting full on scaling either.

"So why does downscaling PPP to low 7-C make more sense than having Sea King slightly higher into High 7-C?"

Because that's circular scaling. You can't say him clobbering his face should make him comparable one minute and then upscale DSK higher than the value given by acknowledging the fact that he should be at least 2x stronger. Logic like this can legitimately scale characters up infinitely, which is precisely why it should be avoided. The value specified comes from Genos, PPP has no evidence to suggest he was comparable to him at this point. DSK does so we know he scales to that point, so it's far easier to say that PPP simply scales down to 7-C more than anything.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that we should place him down at Low 7-C. It's just that his scaling up to High 7-C looks extremely wonky given everything presented, and downscaling from there is a little difficult given how speculative it is.

 

[Antvasima]

So you think that it is an inconsistency then?

 

[SuperAPM]

Well, maybe not necessarily an inconsistency. I think in ONE's eyes PPP wasn't supposed to be significantly below DSK at this point. Its just that its difficult to quantify how many times weaker he was exactly, so it might be safer to place him at a level that we definitely know he was at.