One Piece: Logia dispersion in versus match-ups

[KittBetelgeuse]

@Grudge and @Nedoiko - From what I understand, we're not flat out suggesting that an opponent would automatically have "haki", but energy-based attacks (produced from ki, chakra, etc, but not from a gun) would be capable of directly harming the logia user's body.
Physical attacks and the like would still be totally worthless in live combat, and I'd also like to mention that logia users can utilize their own haki in order to cancel out the attacks of other haki users. The most notable showing is when Akainu was struck by Vista and Marco, who he stated were using haki, yet he was still capable of using his logia-form. Another showing of this, but for a Paramecia user was when Luffy used his haki to protect himself from a haki infused attack from Doflamingo, while also maintaining his rubbery body while in Gear 4th. How would this come into play in a versus match-up?

Also, I'd like to point out that I believe that I've added Body Control for all of the Logia users, and if i missed any pages, someone should add it like how I placed it on Sabo's profile.

I know what you mean, the thing is that Haki has never been flat out describe as a form of energy manipulation, not even going by rayleights description. by its characteristics, it makes much more sense that Haki can affect characters such as Konan or Suigetsu, than simply every logia user being affected by energy manipulation with the only basis being "haki is similarly described as how chakra or ki is" when chakra is not explicitly stated to "hurt the true body" of an enemy

 

[CinCameron20]

@Nedoiko - i understand your view, and can find a way to support it, but a logia user has not yet been shown avoiding anything energy based. That being said, we can't just say that all ki-based attacks are going to be effective against a logia user, especially the haki users that have clearly taken precautions against them, such as Aokiji and Akainu, who have nearly completely nullified the effects of a haki attack.

Someone could argue that a logia user can use haki to circumvent the effects of a ki-based attack, but we know for sure that a logia user is not going to come back if almost all of his body is destroyed, they are completely vaporized, or they are struck fatally by an attack that circumvents their logia-form (i.e another element, soul absorption, destruction, etc).

I'd say that a logia user like Aokiji could avoid a ki-attack by using his haki to mitigate the effects of the said attack. Would that be wrong?

But Haki (Busoshoku version) is definitely not soul manipulation. It is more on the lines of Limited Power Nullification, as long as the haki is touching the logia user.

@Grudge - Would haki ever be considered to be a limited form of Power Nullification?

 

[KittBetelgeuse]

@Nedoiko - i understand your view, and can find a way to support it, but a logia user has not yet been shown avoiding anything energy based. That being said, we can't just say that all ki-based attacks are going to be effective against a logia user, especially the haki users that have clearly taken precautions against them, such as Aokiji and Akainu, who have nearly completely nullified the effects of a haki attack.
Someone could argue that a logia user can use haki to circumvent the effects of a ki-based attack, but we know for sure that a logia user is not going to come back if almost all of his body is destroyed, they are completely vaporized, or they are struck fatally by an attack that circumvents their logia-form (i.e another element, soul absorption, destruction, etc).

I'd say that a logia user like Aokiji could avoid a ki-attack by using his haki to mitigate the effects of the said attack. Would that be wrong?

well of course Id agree with that since pure energy attacks can basically destroy anything, you can vaporize sand, sludge, mochi, even lava, but for example, something that is already vapor (not sure if caesar would count) or something that can't be vaporized (how do you vaporize light?), that's the point where I don't think Ki attacks would work and logia dispersion would work as normal.

then there's chakra, making a little matchup here, lets put Caribou, user of the numa numa no mi (he turns into swamp/sludge/mud) vs Sakura haruno, Lets say Caribou maintains his logia form without "turning it off" the entire time, and Sakura tries to hurt him with a chakra scalpel, which is simply chakra in the form of a blade and the purest form I can think of using chakra as a direct attack, the question would be, according to this verse equalization, would it work on caribou? I honestly doubt it, as the technique is not specified to do that, and I think it would work the same if in a similar situation sakura used it against konan, suigetsu or someone like Juvia Lockster.

It simply makes much more sense to say that "haki is more of an unique power with unique capabilities agains intangible foes" than to say "all logia users are vulnerable to any kind of energy manipulation", Haki is simply too different to energy manipulation to be considered as such

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Cin considering Robin flat out states it doesn't negate the persons power but just allows it to grab or hit the real body of devil fruit users. I wouldn't call it limited power nullification.

@Nedoiko I understand you don't think all types of energy should hurt Logia users. But your example of could Sakura hit caribou with that chakra scalpel I actually do think it would work. Look at this way, robin states Haki works differently from seastone energy so it's powers is not like natural energy that is emitted from well the earth. However from the statement we got about Haki(for now due to his experience, he's our most trustworthy source until contradicted otherwise.) Haki is the energy that is connected to all living beings, a manifestation of ones "will" and "fighting spirit".

So how about this, if the opponents energy attacks do not come from ones own body and or connected to their fighting spirit or is spiritual in general. It won't be able to hit Logia users.

I do not know how chakra works in Naruto so I can't debate with it. But for other verses like DB,HNK,maybe FT(only for certain characters) ,yu yu hakusho(off the top of my head.) I do believe they could hit Logia users as their attacks due originate from some kind of spiritual energy or "will" and "fighting spirit".

Also energy manipulation Follows a wide range of different categories and sub abilities. So it falls under it regardless.

 

[Amexim]

I don't think making them vulnerable to any type of Energy Manipulation is good, but I don't think that saying haki is unique enough to make all other concepts that are similar to it be unable to affect logia. Haki is very similar in concept to Chi, and many forms of Chi in different verses are similar to each other and haki. Making the argument that Haki is too different to have the same rules apply to it as Chakra Genjutsu against a DBZ character is absurd. By that logic, Itachi can't cast a Genjutsu on anyone not in the Naruto verse because they don't have Chakra specifically, and the list goes on. Haki is very similar in concept to Chi, even with slight differences. So I propose that any character that can use Chi or a force similar in concept to Chi, like Chakra or Nen, or Fairy Tale's brand of Magic, as it is from the lifeforce of a being rather than an external source-- they should be able to hit him. Saying otherwise is like saying because I shot Kizaru with my laser gun that is made of non-mystical energy and shit, it can't faze through him-- which is an overapplication of verse equalization, making concepts that aren't close to being similar effect the logia users when we all know they shouldn't.

 

[KittBetelgeuse]

@grudgeman1706
I insist, it is not that Logias are vulnerable to haki, it's that haki specifically has the property of "Attacking the true body", something other energy manipulation abilities don't have unless specifically stated.

Consider this, Outside of logia intangibility, this would also mean that every energy manipulation ability like a chakra enhanced punch would hurt the real body of luffy trough his rubber body? just by virtue of being energy manipulation doesn't mean it should bypass a power based invulnerability

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Guys, don't quote long blocks of text.

 

[Amexim]

And, when Aokiji and Akainu nullified Haki effectiveness, wasn't it because their haki was Superior to the opponent who was attacking them-- kind of like what Big Mom did to Luffy's gear 4th punch. And, iirc, Aokiji avoided an attack from Whitebeard by shaping his body around his weapon so that it would miss him. As for the claim of there not being enough evidence to claim that Chi or Chakra/Spirit Energy concepts do the same to Logia users by "attacking their true body", Ki in DBZ doesn't have a Network or Nodes that it flows through, yet we can have Genjutsu placed on Krillin via Verse equalization. Nen has nodes, Chakra has Tenketsu, but they both work slightly differently. That doesn't write off the fact they are both similar in base concept when you get right down to the "Chi" Trope used so much in Anime. Reiatsu acts different than Reiki from Yu Yu Hakusho, and yet they are both under the Chi Trope. People can't see Shinigami without a concept exclusive to Bleach allowing them to. You see what I mean? I think that instead of working so hard to find individual powers and abilities that work on Logia because "Haki is special" just like every other version of Chi is different across verses, we can go by the basic Trope and be done with it. Cyclops from X-men shouldn't be able to ignore Logia intangibility unless his eye beans fire Chi or something.

As for Logia users defending against Haki, why not compare who has better use of their "Chi" ability Trope to determine if someone can hurt them. That's the real debate. Even if we go by specific instances where all abilities match, will the Haki of the Logia user be effective in countering the enemy?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Grudge - I agree that the energy should come directly from a person's body if it is to work against a logia user.

I do want to bring up a point that I believe was overlooked in an earlier post. Since Akainu and Aokiji are examples of logia users with haki and they can mitigate damage inflicted by haki users by maintaining their haki on their own bodies. Aokiji's body still dispersed, despite taking small damage when he was struck by Jozu, and Akainu was visibly irritated after Marco and Vista attacked him. Would there be any effect on this in a versus match-up in any way?

 

[Thebluedash]

I always considered haki being able to hit devil fruit users an in-verse power type deal. It's the power to affect devil fruit users nothing more.

 

[KittBetelgeuse]

@Grudge - I agree that the energy should come directly from a person's body if it is to work against a logia user.

I'm looking more into the definition and capabilities of haki, I really believe that the argument that any energy attack (specifically talking at the body orginated ones like ki or chakra) can hurt logias has all kinds of fallacies slapped all over it. the argument is directed towards the wrong target (we can't assume that Haki is comparable to other energy types enough to make a verse equalization, and it's not that "logias are weak to haki", it's that "haki is strong against logias". and we are also completelly ignoring that there are other paramecia related powers that haki works against), the fact that Rayleight defines it similarly is not enough to make it comparable to other energy manipulations, specially since it doesnt work like other verses energy manipulation in the sligthest (and I know chakra and ki are different in that aspect too, but they share common traits that are much more comparable than what they share with haki) and there's the issue of said verses energy manipulation being unable to do damage to similar abilities of their own verse.

 

[Amexim]

@Nedokio

But is Haki's ability to hit the "true body" really enough to justify it being seen as something that can't be equalized across other verses? And would we be ok with applying similar situations similarly-- for example, if Neji fought Kid Goku, would the Gentle Fist actually work on him the way it would everyone else, nullifying Goku's chi use. DBZ does not have Tenketsu or anything even similar, and I would argue that the definition Rayleigh gave fits many definitions of a Chi Trope. Lots of Verses have their own spin on things, but that doesn't mean Verse equalization doesn't work because of special aspects. I agree/love your analysis, but in the case of Verse equalization, delving into how things don't properly translate is counterintuitive to the idea of V.E.

I'm certain I'm the minority, and you'll probably ignore me, but if you can convince me (and anyone who thinks like me) that Haki doesn't fall under the Chi Trope, and can't be equalized beyond stating that this brand of Chi functions differently than DBZ's brand of Chi (because it's not DBZ's brand of Chi).

On the other hand, I can add to this by saying that Haki does negate Devil Fruit Powers to an extent. If Luffy gets hit with Armament Haki, he's get hurt like it was a regular punch, iirc. So, yes, I agree Haki does have special properties that set it apart from other Chi tropes, but a lot of series do. Bleach should KO everyone who can sense their presence because they have massive seizure inducing Spiritual Pressure (on some Conqueror's shit) and other verses don't.

I mean, still, IMO Haki ignoring Devil Fruit Powers is just part of their verses's physics. Can we really say that Haki would be able to ignore the metal body of Colussus (as cool as that is... OMG that's so awesome!)? I mean, with verse equalization maybe, but we'd have to be consistent with Chi being able to hit Logia.

 

[Antvasima]

The question is what we are going to do about the conclusion? It seems a bit excessive to write a specific versus thread rule for logia characters alone.

I am still uncertain about this.

 

[Amexim]

@Ant

Which is why I think we should just equalize by tropes in this case. We could write something on the One Piece verse page like "As long as the ability used to attack the Logia user falls under or is similar enough to the Chi Trope, the Logia users can be hit by it.

 

[CinCameron20]

I'm not sure what everyone wants to do in regards of logia users vs an opponent cross-verse.

 

[KittBetelgeuse]

@Nedokio
I'm certain I'm the minority, and you'll probably ignore me, but if you can convince me (and anyone who thinks like me) that Haki doesn't fall under the Chi Trope, and can't be equalized beyond stating that this brand of Chi functions differently than DBZ's brand of Chi (because it's not DBZ's brand of Chi).

I'm trying to explain you, we are tackling the argument from the wrong side, Just because haki works on logia, it doesn't mean that every chi type power will negate the logia body. This whole thread is "atributting a weakness to logia types", when in reality, we should be "atributting an advantage to haki", for example, In a... lets say Garp vs Juvia Lockster, Garp should be able to hurt juvia trought her water body due to verse equalizaion, it is Haki what should equalize to the other energy types, and not the oposite. Haki is a type of power that "hurts the enemy trought their superpowered bodies, and hurts their base form" to say it somehow, again the example with Luffy being made of rubber, but Haki ignoring this fact, but this not meaning that every sakura's enhanced punch should bypass luffy's rubber body. and with the example you gave, I don't know colossus all that much so going by his profile saying that he has a base form and that he turns into metal, I think haki would bypass it, If i'm not mistaken, the same has happened to Daz Bones steel body.

what I'm saying is. Is the energy type strong against the logia in question? (for example, a Ki blast big enough to entirely vaporize crocodiles sand or aokijis Ice) If thats the case, then it works, but simply "Enhancing your punch with ki" shouldn't, another example, Unless it is a very massive one, A rasengan should Only disperce Ace's fire body

 

[Thebluedash]

I'll say my opinion again, haki should be treated as a in verse only ability that affects devil fruit users.

Logias manually turns into their logia form, its not automatic, so if the opponent is faster, they can be able to hit.

 

[Bepo4151]

I agree with blue.

 

[Thebluedash]

Chi/ki/chakra/whatever being compared to haki here is a joke.

Thats like saying chakra absorbing techniques affects people with chis. They don't, it doesn't make any sense and people are pulling at strings here.

 

[Thebluedash]

"I do not know how chakra works in Naruto so I can't debate with it. But for other verses like DB,HNK,maybe FT(only for certain characters) ,yu yu hakusho(off the top of my head.) I do believe they could hit Logia users as their attacks due originate from some kind of spiritual energy or "will" and "fighting spirit".

Even if their similar thats not how it works. Busoshoku haki is not Dragon Ball's ki for example.

Busoshoku Haki creates an armor that covers the user's "insert weapon/body parts" and allows them to enhance said thing. It also allows them to affect devil fruit. Just because the "will" part is similar to ki in some series doesn't make any sense to let them affect devil fruit users.

Thats like saying chakra attacks will work on ki characters it doesn't.

 

[Thebluedash]

(Good example provided by a friend)

"I see no reason why soul hax from NGE would work on souls from Bleach when they are completely different in composition and mechanics"

This is the same as haki in this case. The only thing similar to haki and ki is the fact that haki is powered by will ( and note not even all ki are powered by will) and second ( it exists in all humans).

You know how many verses have powers that "exists" in all humans. Wow, lets all make them being able to be afffected ki, makes sense to me.

 

[KittBetelgeuse]

Chi/ki/chakra/whatever being compared to haki here is a joke.
Thats like saying chakra absorbing techniques affects people with chis. They don't, it doesn't make any sense and people are pulling at strings here.

well the whole topic is about verse equalization and some of the examples you give should indeed work, like the chakra absortion ones

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree with Bluedash

 

[CinCameron20]

My problem with verse equalization is that everyone automatically assumes that logia users wont be able to enter their logia form, when I don't buy it. I just don't quite understand how exactly verse equalization would work in this scenario anyways.

I would personally like to stick with "Unless you can bypass the Logia user's regen, or use soul hax, or use an element that can bypass the fluid-intangibility, you're not really going to get anywhere unless you're vastly stronger than said Logia, or can blitz them".

 

[Thebluedash]

I agree with Cin.

 

[Joseph619]

Agree with Cin. Verse equalization doesn't allow you to bypass elemental intangibility, and equalizing haki to ki/chakra is a an improper way to equalize since haki is not an energy/life source, you don't die if haki is drained. It's a dormant ability that can be activated and mastered through training and is very specialized (much like food luck in toriko). Every random fodder with chakra and ki can't hurt logia

 

[KittBetelgeuse]

haki is not an energy/life source, you don't die if haki is drained.

This is actually an extremelly good point, Luffy is so far the only person who has "exhausted" his haki pool, and all he got was unable to move and unable to use it for 10 minutes. instead other chi abilities seem to be possibly fatal if you run out of it or overexert it.

 

[Thebluedash]

That is a point.

 

[CinCameron20]

I know blue is with me on this, but to question the rest of the staff, can we agree with my last post that haki isn't affected by verse equalization, and a logia user's body would function normally in a versus match-up, only vulnerable to the above weaknesses?

I also want to, again, point out that I've added Body Control to all Logia user's profiles since we have evidence that users like Aokiji can put holes in his own logia body, and other common usages from Katakuri, Smoker, and Akainu show them altering the shape and size of their limbs to various degrees.

If these two things are okay with the majority, this topic will be concluded and we'll move on.

 

[Joseph619]

@Cin: If you have time please respond to my post on your wall. Thanks

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that CinCameron20 and Thebluedash seem to make sense, but I am still uncertain about how we should approach writing a rule about this? Should we place it as a footnote in the verse page?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Ant - making it into a rule on the versus thread rules seems unnecessary, but I do believe a footnote on the verse page would be necessary, seeing as how the reason I made this thread in the first place was primarily to bring up how people state that an opponent is granted haki via verse equalization, rendering logia intangibility null in void.

So I definitely say yes to a foot note on the verse page.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Does anybody have a suggestion for the wording?

 

[Joseph619]

Okay. Does anybody have a suggestion for the wording?

Equalizing haki would be like trying to equalize food luck in Toriko. Neither are energy/life source so it would be incorrect to compare it to chi. It should be mentioned on One Piece page

I also recommend a page on haki is created to avoid confusion in future

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but we need an actual text segment to unsert as a footnote.

CinCameron20 is probably the best candidate for creating a Haki page.

 

[Joseph619]

As this argument is current revolving around haki...One more reason why this verse equalization doesn't work trying to compare haki with chi is because: You can't drain haki out of a person who hasn't activated it. However you can drain people out of chi and kill them, regardless of whether they learned chi control. Learning to use haki and controlling chi are not the same thing. Life in one piece does not depend on haki. However life is completely dependent on chi and chakra which are life essence. Haki is not a life essence. We have never seen anybody dying because of lack of haki (since most people in OP don't even have haki activated), however one can overexert themselves by using haki too much as it's taxing.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[CinCameron20]

The reason why Haki can't be used in verse equalization is because giving the opponent's chi-based abilities the power to simply hit a logia user (via busoshoku variant of haki) would be the equivalent of giving a One Piece character the ability to utilize Ninjutsu, for example.

Kenbunshoku, Busoshoku, and Haoshoku are abilities that use haki, whereas Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and even Taijutsu to an extent use chakra. In order to strike the real body of a logia, you must have a level of Busoshoku that is comparable, or superior to the logia's own ability to use that haki. You can't just give an opponent the ability to use Busoshoku, because then that would mean you must hand them the ability to use Kenbunshoku, granting them precognition and clairvoyance, seeing as how both powers can be learned by anyone in One Piece who unlocks the power of haki.

There's also the fact that haki is hardly anything like chi, given that it is not essential to life or any form of life energy. You don't need haki to live.

For those reasons, after thinking about it, I find it fairly ridiculous to say that verse equalization would allow an opponent to just suddenly harm a logia user with chi-based attacks.

Joseph's statement could work for a description explaining why haki is not in verse equalization.

I can make a page about haki, but it will take a little time to make it since I don't want to put half of my effort into it.

 

[Thebluedash]

Take your time, this isn't necessary something that needs to be done fast.

 

[Rin_Rokudo]

The reason why Haki can't be used in verse equalization is because giving the opponent's chi-based abilities the power to simply hit a logia user (via busoshoku variant of haki) would be the equivalent of giving a One Piece character the ability to utilize Ninjutsu, for example.

With verse equalization, if someone from Naruto that can only be hurt from Senjutsu battles say Natsu from FT, he won't be hurt from his flaming attacks because they are basically ninjutsu from FT.