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One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph

StrawHatArslan said:
I don't think you guys realize how AP feats work.... not to mention we scale them to WHITEBEARD'S quakes not to mention feats he pulled off casually were 26 teratons, the two tsunamis he casually pulled off when arriving to marineford. I don't even think their profiles are WITH HAKI. Regardless they would be "6-B, higher with Haki"
Click to expand...
WB's "casual" attacks were literally dealing heavy damage to freakin Akainu. Common sense will suggest that non-Haki, barehanded attacks from the Yonkos will not be able to do something like this considering their non-Haki infused bare-handed attacks have yet to shown any danger to strong enemies yet.

Even when Kaido "casually" one-shotted G4 Luffy, it was infused with ACoC, not once did any of his "casual" attacks without Haki deal any damage to anyone noteworthy so far. Heck his Boro's breath in Dragon form was still only 7-A. Same goes for Big Mom, she needed to use ACoC+Napoleon in her attacks to match Kaido's, Top Tiers like them use ACoC in their attacks like second nature now.

In fact, each time we see any Yonko or PK tier characters clash, it is always with ACoC, meaning that their "casual" attacks are always ACoC infused. Now these are the 6-B attacks.

However, what Big Mom landed on Kidd was nothing like those attacks, it had no Haki on it, and was barehanded.Heck it wasn't even infused with CoA, and hence it is a FARCRY to suggest that attack is of the same caliber as her ACoC+Napoleon attacks that she uses to clash with people of same Tier to her (Yonko/PK TIer). The attacks she uses to clash with Yonkos can be argued to be 6-B, but it is VERY huge stretch to assume that her bare-handed Haki-less attacks she dealt on Kidd even scales to this when we see how much an AMP ACoC, CoA and special weapon gives,
 
Ebitan34 said:
WB's "casual" attacks were literally dealing heavy damage to freakin Akainu. Common sense will suggest that non-Haki, barehanded attacks from the Yonkos will not be able to do something like this considering their non-Haki infused bare-handed attacks have yet to shown any danger to strong enemies yet.

Even when Kaido "casually" one-shotted G4 Luffy, it was infused with ACoC, not once did any of his "casual" attacks without Haki deal any damage to anyone noteworthy so far. Heck his Boro's breath in Dragon form was still only 7-A. Same goes for Big Mom, she needed to use ACoC+Napoleon in her attacks to match Kaido's, Top Tiers like them use ACoC in their attacks like second nature now.

In fact, each time we see any Yonko or PK tier characters clash, it is always with ACoC, meaning that their "casual" attacks are always ACoC infused. Now these are the 6-B attacks.

However, what Big Mom landed on Kidd was nothing like those attacks, it had no Haki on it, and was barehanded.Heck it wasn't even infused with CoA, and hence it is a FARCRY to suggest that attack is of the same caliber as her ACoC+Napoleon attacks that she uses to clash with people of same Tier to her (Yonko/PK TIer). The attacks she uses to clash with Yonkos can be argued to be 6-B, but it is VERY huge stretch to assume that her bare-handed Haki-less attacks she dealt on Kidd even scales to this when we see how much an AMP ACoC, CoA and special weapon gives,
Click to expand...
1. Casual attacks were his tsunami he pulled off instantly pulling up to marineford, the same crack he's able to apply on people. It's not common sense, you're saying it's "common sense" yet you fail to prove otherwise.

2. Do you still have any way to prove that his other attacks fall down to 7-A? You really don't because they all end up scaling to the tsunami he pulled off, which has NOTHING to do with haki, why are you still comparing that? Haki is just an amp to his current statistics, from his devil fruit as a whole. It wouldn't make sense for yonko not to scale to others normally without haki, when they're stated to rival one another. Normal whitebeard being 6-B, but normal kaido and BM being 7-A? More than thousands of times weaker? Yeah you make zero sense.

3. ACoC is an amp, so what if they're clashing only with that? You have 0 ways to prove that, we literally scale off 6-B with the DF feat alone, haki has nothing to do with that lmfao.

4. I don't even fully agree with kidd scaling since we haven't fully seen the extent of what he did. There's no stretch to assume that, whitebeard alone pulled off the 6-B calc with his DF, and no haki whatsoever, so base big mom would scale as well, and the would be higher with haki to an unquantifiable degree. It's not a huge stretch, you're not making any sense by saying they need haki to scale to a simple base wb with his DF. It would make 100% more sense for their normal versions to be 26 Teratons, and unquantifiably higher with haki. They're using haki to amp their statistics, and that would just make the other's scale, not not scale.
 
StrawHatArslan said:
Okay so if you even don't consider Zoro FTL, why would still have the haki to hit him. You made the false assumption that Katakuri wouldn't even slip up once. As we spoke about above in AP, katakuri at best could be High 6-C, which is 184 GT. Zoro scales to Kaido for the reasons Emin brought above, which you haven't proved wrong. Katakuri has no ap to even touch zoro, you would have to prove Katakuri to be 6-B, in order for him to even hurt zoro.
Click to expand...
It is unlikely for Katakuri to slip up against Zoro tbh because Zoro's speed isn't FTL, and he doesn't have FS. Luffy needed Relativistic+ speed AND Future Sight to be able to tag Kata, Zoro has the speed but lacks the Future Sight. Unless Zoro's speed is FTL like Kaido's, he will need Future Sight to compensate for it to hit Katakuri.

I don't argue that Zoro's AP is in any way lower than Katakuri's. In fact I did state clearly that imo Zoro's AP is likely Admiral Tier, and I am fine with 6-B AP Zoro because of his Asura feat vs Kaido. If anything, Zoro's AP has proven to be far beyond Katakuri's. So we are likely on the same page about Zoro's AP.

BUT, I don't think that Zoro's current durability scales to his AP. Imo Zoro would not be able to tank his own Asura attack without one-shotting himself. I don't think that Zoro's durability is anything near 6-B because he never tanked any of those 6-B attacks outright. The first Yonko combo attack was only withstood for an instant, so he doesn't scale to it. The second 6-B Yonko attack one-shotted him. Same goes for Law, he got one-shotted by a single actual 6-B attack..

So basically if Zoro manages to land a serious hit on Kata, Kata is likely a goner. On the other hand, however, if Kata manages to evade Zoro's hits long enough and keep dealing his own damage, Zoro might get worn out after a long fight. In fact, Katakuri's DF versatility allows him to have many ways to fight againsteZoro. One way is he could summon Mochi arms to catch Zoro offguard, and this way restrain Zoro while he keeps dealing 7-A to 6-C damage on Zoro. If the damage accmulates enough, even Zoro can be beaten because he ain't Kaido or Marco.

Now I was playing Devils advocate for Kata by listing possible win conditions in his match up vs Zoro. In all honestly I see current Zoro beating Kata 7-8/10 overall simply due to his insane Admiral Tier 6-B AP.
 
Eminiteable said:
No Big Mom told him to dodge and that's what Kaido did lmao, this is from the translator:
Click to expand...

12.jpg


Zoro said he missed.

Big Mom did ask Kaido to dodge, but Kaido didn't Listen.
 
Ebitan34 said:
It is unlikely for Katakuri to slip up against Zoro tbh because Zoro's speed isn't FTL, and he doesn't have FS. Luffy needed Relativistic+ speed AND Future Sight to be able to tag Kata, Zoro has the speed but lacks the Future Sight. Unless Zoro's speed is FTL like Kaido's, he will need Future Sight to compensate for it to hit Katakuri.

I don't argue that Zoro's AP is in any way lower than Katakuri's. In fact I did state clearly that imo Zoro's AP is likely Admiral Tier, and I am fine with 6-B AP Zoro because of his Asura feat vs Kaido. If anything, Zoro's AP has proven to be far beyond Katakuri's. So we are likely on the same page about Zoro's AP.

BUT, I don't think that Zoro's current durability scales to his AP. Imo Zoro would not be able to tank his own Asura attack without one-shotting himself. I don't think that Zoro's durability is anything near 6-B because he never tanked any of those 6-B attacks outright. The first Yonko combo attack was only withstood for an instant, so he doesn't scale to it. The second 6-B Yonko attack one-shotted him. Same goes for Law, he got one-shotted by a single actual 6-B attack..

So basically if Zoro manages to land a serious hit on Kata, Kata is likely a goner. On the other hand, however, if Kata manages to evade Zoro's hits long enough and keep dealing his own damage, Zoro might get worn out after a long fight. In fact, Katakuri's DF versatility allows him to have many ways to fight againsteZoro. One way is he could summon Mochi arms to catch Zoro offguard, and this way restrain Zoro while he keeps dealing 7-A to 6-C damage on Zoro. If the damage accmulates enough, even Zoro can be beaten because he ain't Kaido or Marco.

Now I was playing Devils advocate for Kata by listing possible win conditions in his match up vs Zoro. In all honestly I see current Zoro beating Kata 7-8/10 overall simply due to his insane Admiral Tier 6-B AP.
Click to expand...
If you admit zoro wins, then that's fine to me. Btw, due to newton's law, zoro would still scale to his ap, plus he tanked 2 different yonko attacks.
 
StrawHatArslan said:
If you admit zoro wins, then that's fine to me. Btw, due to newton's law, zoro would still scale to his ap, plus he tanked 2 different yonko attacks.
Click to expand...
We don't apply Newton's law or physics to friggin One Piece bruh. One piece doesn't give a dam about physics, it has it's own fictional laws, if any.

He never tanked any of those. The first one he only tanked a small fraction of it due to it only being an instant, and even that broke most of his bones. The second Yonko attack totally one-shotted him.
 
Ebitan34 said:
12.jpg


Zoro said he missed.

Big Mom did ask Kaido to dodge, but Kaido didn't Listen.
Click to expand...
???
What? He would still have missed if Kaido dodged that statement doesn't change regardless. Proof of Kaido not listening?

If Big Mom tells Kaido to dodge, followed by big mom saying "we underestimated them", and the attack not landing it's not hard at all to figure out what happened, basic reading comprehension.
 
Ebitan34 said:
We don't apply Newton's law or physics to friggin One Piece bruh. One piece doesn't give a dam about physics, it has it's own fictional laws, if any.

He never tanked any of those. The first one he only tanked a small fraction of it due to it only being an instant, and even that broke most of his bones. The second Yonko attack totally one-shotted him.
Click to expand...
Being able to go after still taking two attacks still count's as tanking....meaning his durability still scales. Yeah, and we also apply calcs, so I don't see why newtons law doesn't work.
 
Eminiteable said:
???
What? He would still have missed if Kaido dodged that statement doesn't change regardless. Proof of Kaido not listening?

If Big Mom tells Kaido to dodge, followed by big mom saying "we underestimated them", and the attack not landing it's not hard at all to figure out what happened, basic reading comprehension.
Click to expand...
If Kaido dodged it, Zoro, someone of his calliber would have commented about Kaido's speed or something along the lines of :" He dodged it! " Big Mom even says that he underestimated Zoro, she wouldn't have said that if Kaido obeyed her.

That panel was literally there to show Zoro's inexperience in wielding Enma, hence the first time he uses it in combat he misses. The next time when he got used to Enma, he left a Scar on Kaido.
 
StrawHatArslan said:
Being able to go after still taking two attacks still count's as tanking....meaning his durability still scales. Yeah, and we also apply calcs, so I don't see why newtons law doesn't work.
Click to expand...
All the calcs we apply here already break the law of energy conservation, and the site itself recognizes it. AP itself is already a fictional concept that violates the law of conservation of energy. Calcs made on this site are all built upon assumptions that some physics laws are ignored.

And no, tanking an attack means that that person is still in battle condition after taking said damage. The first attack was 6-B, but what Zoro received wasn't because it was a mere small fraction of it, meaning it might have just been 6-C. The second attack , an actual 6-B, completely KO'd Zoro, now that's not what we call tanking, it was called a one-shot.
 
Ebitan34 said:
If Kaido dodged it, Zoro, someone of his calliber would have commented about Kaido's speed or something along the lines of :" He dodged it! " Big Mom even says that he underestimated Zoro, she wouldn't have said that if Kaido obeyed her.

That panel was literally there to show Zoro's inexperience in wielding Enma, hence the first time he uses it in combat he misses. The next time when he got used to Enma, he left a Scar on Kaido.
Click to expand...
Everything you said was bullshit, sorry if that sounds offensive but it is. Nothing you said is required for Kaido to dodge or an indication that Kaido didn't dodge.

After the Hiryu Kaen attack Kaido has a small cloud next to his mouth which serves as a visual indication that he's out of breathe, Almost like he dodged.

Sorry but you're grasping at straws trying to prove he didn't dodge, there's literally no evidence he didn't.
 
Eminiteable said:
Everything you said was bullshit, sorry if that sounds offensive but it is. Nothing you said is required for Kaido to dodge or an indication that Kaido didn't dodge.

After the Hiryu Kaen attack Kaido has a small cloud next to his mouth which serves as a visual indication that he's out of breathe, Almost like he dodged.

Sorry but you're grasping at straws trying to prove he didn't dodge, there's literally no evidence he didn't.
Click to expand...
What you said was bullshit too, you had no evidence that Kaido dodged the attack. Big Mom asked Kaido to dodge it, but do you have evidence to proof that he listened to her?? NO you don't,

Meanwhile , Zoro, the attacker himself , said that he MISSED. Learn to fkn read jesus, he MISSED.

Do you need a dictionary to tell you the difference between dodge and miss? You should learn to read.
 
I mean, idk what you guys are talking about, but how exactly Zoro scales to Kaido's speed when we clearly see Kaido is entirely able to dodge his attacks even in his massive and not movement focused form? What, Zoro was holding his speed back with Hiryu Kaen?
 
Ebitan34 said:
What you said was bullshit too, you had no evidence that Kaido dodged the attack. Big Mom asked Kaido to dodge it, but do you have evidence to proof that he listened to her?? NO you don't,

Meanwhile , Zoro, the attacker himself , said that he MISSED. Learn to fkn read jesus, he MISSED.

Do you need a dictionary to tell you the difference between DODGE and MISS? You should learn to read.
Click to expand...
Big mom screamed to Kaido to dodge, and the attack didn't land, followed by her saying "THEY underestimated them" saying both her and Kaido underestimated Zoro and the nova. It's so god damn obvious what happened, you're lying to yourself if you seriously can't understand.

It's your burden of evidence to show Kaido had any reason to not listen to Big Mom or provide evidence of him not listening to her.

You need to learn that saying "it missed" doesn't mean Kaido didn't dodge, literally that isn't what that term means. You can still miss an attack if someone dodges, that's how it works.
 
Eminiteable said:
Big mom screamed to Kaido to dodge, and the attack didn't land, followed by her saying "THEY underestimated them" saying both her and Kaido underestimated Zoro and the nova. It's so god damn obvious what happened, you're lying to yourself if you seriously can't understand.

It's your burden of evidence to show Kaido had any reason to not listen to Big Mom or provide evidence of him not listening to her.

You need to learn that saying "it missed" doesn't mean Kaido didn't dodge, literally that isn't what that term means. You can still miss an attack if someone dodges, that's how it works.
Click to expand...

12.jpg


Zoro.
Said.
He.

MISSED.

No, the burden of proof is on you to proof that Kaido dodged the attack. But you can't proof it.
 
Ebitan34 said:
All the calcs we apply here already break the law of energy conservation, and the site itself recognizes it. AP itself is already a fictional concept that violates the law of conservation of energy. Calcs made on this site are all built upon assumptions that some physics laws are ignored.

And no, tanking an attack means that that person is still in battle condition after taking said damage. The first attack was 6-B, but what Zoro received wasn't because it was a mere small fraction of it, meaning it might have just been 6-C. The second attack , an actual 6-B, completely KO'd Zoro, now that's not what we call tanking, it was called a one-shot.
Click to expand...
The attack as a whole is unquantifiably above 6-B. He had to have had the ability being able to even block it by a little bit, regardless. There was also another instant from a scan you sent where he tanked a normal attack from dragon form kaido who's also 6-B, so he would have 6-B dura regardless.
 
KingTempest said:
Being able to dodge ≠ being superior in speed
Click to expand...
If it was done in Kaido's Hybrid form i would agree, it wasn't, his Dragon Form has no emphasis in speed and is a massive target, even then he was fast enough to dodge Zoro's attack via a warning from a third person, that and Kaido's FTL haven't been more than short bursts in his human or hybrid forms and no one so far was able to hit him when he intended to dodge their attacks, what he rarely felt the need to so far (2 or 3 times iirc), saying ANYONE scales to FTL is really no-sense.
 
Ebitan34 said:
The burden of proof is on YOU to show me that he dodged.

You don't proof a negative.
Click to expand...
The point is there is no panel of him dodging, or not dodging. The action literally isn't shown.

I've already provided evidence to show Kaido dodged earlier in the thread, and you've already been explained to that just because the term "missed" was used doesn't negate the fact Kaido dodged.

Burden of proof is on you.
 
Eminiteable said:
The point is there is no panel of him dodging, or not dodging. The action literally isn't shown.

I've already provided evidence to show Kaido dodged earlier in the thread, and you've already been explained to that just because the term "missed" was used doesn't negate the fact Kaido dodged.

Burden of proof is on you.
Click to expand...
So you can't prood that Kaido dodged the attack, just like I thought.

That evidence wasn't sufficient. Just because Big Mom asked him to dodge =/= Kaido dodged it.

Meanwhile,
12.jpg


Zoro said he missed . It is as clear as the day that Zoro missed the attack, and very easy for me to proof because Zoro himself stated it directly.

But, what scan do you have to proof that Kaido dodged the attack?
 
Ebitan34 said:
So you can't prood that Kaido dodged the attack, just like I thought.

That evidence wasn't sufficient. Just because Big Mom asked him to dodge =/= Kaido dodged it.

Meanwhile,
12.jpg


Zoro said he missed . It is as clear as the day that Zoro missed the attack, and very easy for me to proof because Zoro himself stated it directly.

But, what scan do you have to proof that Kaido dodged the attack?
Click to expand...
Zoro has insane aim, why would HE MISS an attack on someone just standing still lmao
 
Ebitan34 said:
So you can't prood that Kaido dodged the attack, just like I thought.

That evidence wasn't sufficient. Just because Big Mom asked him to dodge =/= Kaido dodged it.

Meanwhile,
12.jpg


Zoro said he missed . It is as clear as the day that Zoro missed the attack, and very easy for me to proof because Zoro himself stated it directly.

But, what scan do you have to proof that Kaido dodged the attack?
Click to expand...
Scroll up and read.
 
Ebitan34 said:
When you have no arguments left:

That evidence wasn't sufficient. Just because Big Mom asked him to dodge =/= Kaido dodged it.

Zoro said he missed the attack, now give me scans that Kaido dodged.
Click to expand...
The argument I presented was completely sufficient, you saying otherwise is Irrelevant. You provided no reasoning why it isn't sufficient and still lack the basic understanding of what the word missed means.

Scroll up and read what I've said and prove why it isn't sufficient.
 
Eminiteable said:
The argument I presented was completely sufficient, you saying otherwise is Irrelevant. You provided no reasoning why it isn't sufficient and still lack the basic understanding of what the word missed means.

Scroll up and read what I've said and prove why it isn't sufficient.
Click to expand...
Scans of Kaido dodging, or it didn't happen.

Zoro missed .

12.jpg
 
Ebitan34 said:
Scans of Kaido dodging, or it didn't happen.

Zoro missed .

12.jpg
Click to expand...
argument by repetition isn't going to work sorry, you've already been explained to about the word "missed" by myself and Tempest, you refuse to acknowledge it.

Simply posting a scan over and over doesn't prove your point at all. You actually need to prove why my rationale is insufficient and provide sufficient evidence for your claim to win an argument, sorry.
 
Eminiteable said:
argument by repetition isn't going to work sorry, you've already been explained to about the word "missed" by myself and Tempest, you refuse to acknowledge it.

Simply posting a scan over and over doesn't prove your point at all. You actually prove why my rationale is insufficient and provide sufficient evidence for your claim.
Click to expand...
Cmon, scans of Kaido dodging, please.

Or just answer this question:
Is there a panel of Kaido dodging the attack? Yes or No?

Simple enough.
 
Ebitan34 said:
So you admitted that there is no panel of Kaido dodging.

So it never happened in actuality, it was all your headcanon all along.
Click to expand...
When did I ever make the claim there was a panel of Kaido dodging or not dodging? That's something you claimed.

It did, we have sufficient rationale of the scene from the dialogue etc, which was my claim and what you've failed to prove is insufficient all this time. Feel free to do so or concede via burden of rejoinder.
 
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