Omni-Man vs Bardock | 2-3-0

[Chariot190]

You linked Bardock getting obliterfucked and using some unknown definitely not what I'm asking for ki attack? What am I looking at here exactly?

TBF, Dragon Ball names everything regardless of how minor it is. Even the most generic blast possible is considered a 'named attack', with characters having variations of it which are arbitrarily different only because one has a name.

They're techniques too then, it has a variation, you just explained why it's a unique technique. If it's a variant, no matter how small, still means it isn't part of the default skill set.
I like, don't really care anyway, prove he has it.

Ki attacks are stronger than normal physicals, with many many of them being a few times stronger than the user. Basically Bardock gains a means to kill Omni Man with it.

Except prove it, it can't be with heat, Omniman res' that.
Power?

Also don't know why heat resistance keeps getting mentioned, ki attacks don't usually kill opponents via heat and it's typically just due to sheer ap

Exactly, the like, potential method to just bypass dura gap, that being the heat qualities, won't work. It is a matter of just the concussive force. now it's on you to prove Bardock can even bridge that gap with a ki attack. No Goku, Piccolo, and others doing so isn't good enough. Prove he can, it can vary between person to person and technique.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't see how that's applicable since the entire basis around it is for a universal mechanic which Bardock has been shown to utilize.

Explosive wave isnt a universal mechanic. Prove it is.
Nobody has yet beyond "trust me bro".

He's shown to use both the generic ki blasts

Yes, so he gets those.

and also more unique charged up ones such as his famous Final Spirit Cannon,

Yes so he gets that.

Now prove he can use techniques he's never shown to be able to.

in fact the Dodoria statement kinda falls on deaths door since Dodoria not only lacks any form of unique ki manipulation outside of just firing blasts but Dodoria also never actually lands a ki blast on Vegeta as they just get decimated physically and then obliterates them.

Don't matter, narrative makes it blatant Vegeta is just so strong now he curbs, and he does, with a tiny not 2x gap.

No, Oozaru are still capable of using ki. They commonly use it via their mouth cannons, though due to highly limited usages basically every other known abilities is derived from a game.

I pray to God none of you are actually using games as evidence.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I don't see how that's applicable since the entire basis around it is for a universal mechanic which Bardock has been shown to utilize. He's shown to use both the generic ki blasts and also more unique charged up ones such as his famous Final Spirit Cannon, in fact the Dodoria statement kinda falls on deaths door since Dodoria not only lacks any form of unique ki manipulation outside of just firing blasts but Dodoria also never actually lands a ki blast on Vegeta as they just get decimated physically and then obliterates them.

Assuming Bardock's ki gonna overcome Omni Man when he's at a 2 times AP disadvantage is something you'll need to prove. If you can show Bardock can overcome such a gap with his ki, then you maybe, but no, Bardock never shown he can overpower and opponent who is normally twice as strong as him with just ki

No, Oozaru are still capable of using ki. They commonly use it via their mouth cannons, though due to highly limited usages basically every other known abilities is derived from a game.

This is canon Bardock. And Bardock lacks the AP to kill Omni Man with that. Abilities from non canon games doesn't count, especially when all of them use Toei Bardock rather than Minus/Super Bardock

So far none of this proves how Bardock can overpower Omni Man, when the latter is stronger, has better mobility, absurdly higher lifting strength (which combined with far greater AP will absolutely allow Omni Man to tear him apart like he did to Red Rush), and resistance to heat and pain

Not to mention Omni Man fought people comparable to him all the time and was winning

 

[Spinoirr]

Idk why we're not using planet level Bardock for this

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If all the Bardock votes are based on "well he can grow in battle so he instantly surpasses Omni Man", or a zenkai boost argument (which first, might not make him stronger as Vegeta went from 18k to 24k, and second, would require Bardock to heal from a near death injury. Saiyans can't get zenkais without healing first)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Idk why we're not using planet level Bardock for this

Planet level is way too much above Omni Man's AP so it'd be a stomp, but it might be a stomp either way

 

[Fezzih_007]

Whats the significance of this technique in this matchup?

None, he not even gonna use It.
Again, this is a stomp due to Bardock being animalistic in inteligence in this form, so he gets outskilled as hell.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

If all the Bardock votes are based on "well he can grow in battle so he instantly surpasses Omni Man", or a zenkai boost argument (which first, might not make him stronger as Vegeta went from 18k to 24k, and second, would require Bardock to heal from a near death injury. Saiyans can't get zenkais without healing first)

He kinda just willed himself into becoming 5-B in his fight against Gas, so I dunno about that

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He kinda just willed himself into becoming 5-B in his fight against Gas, so I dunno about that

I dount Omni Man would allow him to last this long to have that. Not to mention once he removes his tail Omni Man one shots, and 5-B is restricted here

Also I'm pretty sure the incident with Gas is a special thing that wouldn't normally apply to most fights. For example he couldn't break his limits again to repel Frieza's death ball, and only really happens in extreme and specific situations, and evne then probably not gonna just happen instantly, and due to SBA, Omni Man wouldn't toy with him

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

They're techniques too then, it has a variation, you just explained why it's a unique technique. If it's a variant, no matter how small, still means it isn't part of the default skill set.
I like, don't really care anyway, prove he has it.

Quite literally the only reason it has a variation is due to games, they are only named due to games giving them such. Explosive Wave is a Budokai Tenkaich term, on all accounts it's an random unnamed ki move, just like Vegeta's Maximum Finisher or Energy Wave.

Except prove it, it can't be with heat, Omniman res' that.
Power?

Prove what exactly?

Exactly, the like, potential method to just bypass dura gap, that being the heat qualities, won't work. It is a matter of just the concussive force. now it's on you to prove Bardock can even bridge that gap with a ki attack. No Goku, Piccolo, and others doing so isn't good enough. Prove he can, it can vary between person to person and technique.

I mean if we want to go with 'variation attacks count as anything, no matter how small' we have Mouth Energy Wave, a signature of the Oozaru form or Final Spirit Canon or Flash Spirit or.... you get the idea, the grand bulk of these are unnamed attacks. However due to what we know of Dragon Ball, energy wave type attacks can consistently boost a level of power by at least 2 times.

Explosive wave isnt a universal mechanic. Prove it is.
Nobody has yet beyond "trust me bro".

The source is 'its not a real special attack' because the entire fundamental idea behind it is just one of the most basic forms of ki

Don't matter, narrative makes it blatant Vegeta is just so strong now he curbs, and he does, with a tiny not 2x gap.

I mean by same narrative Bardock can curbstomb a character with a tiny 2x ap gap than him due to power levels being BS and the actual ki attack increase is monumentally larger, Gohan for example goes from getting obliterated by Cui to obliterating him in one moment, but we don't do that here and we treat things like power increases as the multiplier given by power levels

I pray to God none of you are actually using games as evidence.

You, quite literally are, by putting calling these special variations due to the game logic

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

energy wave type attacks can consistently boost a level of power by at least 2 times.

No they don't??? The only instances of this happening is Goku's Kamehameha against Raditz and maybe against Piccolo Jr.

And the only reason we have these instances is because this is specifically told with power levels

Vegeta's power did increase when he used the Galick Gun, but that was nowhere near 2 times as he would overpower KK4 Goku with a power level twice as high.

Not to mention that by this logic, Goku with KK20 would've had enough power in his Kamehameha to overpower 100% Frieza, and this is flat out wrong, or Vegeta's energy blasts being stronger than Android 18 when they were even at best

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Assuming Bardock's ki gonna overcome Omni Man when he's at a 2 times AP disadvantage is something you'll need to prove. If you can show Bardock can overcome such a gap with his ki, then you maybe, but no, Bardock never shown he can overpower and opponent who is normally twice as strong as him with just ki

It's just something Dragon Ball at as a whole has, which is also a problem. Most multipliers are from Frieza Saga or before, and the ones given are highly limited. The only information we have for 'how much stronger are ki attacks' are power levels for Energy Wave type moves which indicate that most of it's kind are at least 2x stronger but more potent ones can go upwards of over 3x, with Piccolo having the highest recorded number of 3.6 times IIRC.

This is canon Bardock. And Bardock lacks the AP to kill Omni Man with that. Abilities from non canon games doesn't count, especially when all of them use Toei Bardock rather than Minus/Super Bardock

Canon Bardock still has the mouth canon, and yeah I'm aware of the fact that games are non-canon

 

[Fezzih_007]

I not sure why you guys talking about the AP advantage, when Bardock is waaay above the 296 Value he scales to, to the point the 2x advantage becomes irrelevant.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It's just something Dragon Ball at as a whole has, which is also a problem. Most multipliers are from Frieza Saga or before, and the ones given are highly limited. The only information we have for 'how much stronger are ki attacks' are power levels for Energy Wave type moves which indicate that most of it's kind are at least 2x stronger but more potent ones can go upwards of over 3x, with Piccolo having the highest recorded number of 3.6 times IIRC.

Piccolo did it with the special beam cannon, a specific move that was directly stated to dramatically increase power level temporarily if charged long enough. Saying this applies to all ki blasts is flat out wrong

Canon Bardock still has the mouth canon, and yeah I'm aware of the fact that games are non-canon

That's just a mouth blast. It's literally nothing special

 

[Zabazab]

Nolan feels like a character who would fly through the mouth cannon and exit the back of Bardock's skull, regardless of any damage he takes in the process.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I not sure why you guys talking about the AP advantage, when Bardock is waaay above the 296 Value he scales to, to the point the 2x advantage becomes irrelevant.

His scaling chain is above Roshi (139) who did the feat, and stronger than someone with a power level of 213. At best you can scale him to Early Z Goku or above him I guess but still, Bardock is at a distadvantage here regarding AP, and that's not to mention Nolan has an advantage in pretty much everything else too

 

[AThe1412]

Nolan feels like a character who would fly through the mouth cannon and exit the back of Bardock's skull, regardless of any damage he takes in the process.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Can I ask to close this, Bardock have zero wincons because of him being animalistic.

Bardock is at a distadvantage here regarding HP

I know we talking about DB games sometimes, but we really not using Health points, for games, because I don't think we can measure that.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

His scaling chain is above Roshi (139) who did the feat, and stronger than someone with a power level of 213. At best you can scale him to Early Z Goku or above him I guess but still, Bardock is at a distadvantage here regarding HP, and that's not to mention Nolan has an advantage in pretty much everything else too

Scaling him to Early Z Goku would make him Low 5-B in Base. Scaling him above Old Demon King Piccolo would make him 59.2 Exatons in Base.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I know we talking about DB games sometimes, but we really not using Health points, for games, because I don't think we can measure that.

AP I meant oops

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Scaling him to Early Z Goku would make him Low 5-B in Base. Scaling him above Old Demon King Piccolo would make him 59.2 Exatons in Base.

Then his chain isn't really that high. Still at an AP disadvantage

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

No they don't??? The only instances of this happening is Goku's Kamehameha against Raditz and maybe against Piccolo Jr.

Super Kamehameha has at most 3.5, Masenko has 2.8, Special Beam Cannon has at most 3.6, Kamehameha has 2.2 and yeah nothing on Gallic Gun

Vegeta's power did increase when he used the Galick Gun, but that was nowhere near 2 times as he would overpower KK4 Goku with a power level twice as high.

KK4 Goku has 32000 base value against Vegeta's base value of 18,000, hell times 3 is considered higher with 21,000 so I don't know what you are indicating there?

Not to mention that by this logic, Goku with KK20 would've had enough power in his Kamehameha to overpower 100% Frieza, and this is flat out wrong, or Vegeta's energy blasts being stronger than Android 18 when they were even at best

Goku's energy blasts would've only been slightly above 100% Frieza and even then Frieza's resilience against vastly stronger opponents and attacks is legendary, alwo 18 was unquantifiably stronger than Vegeta until she wasn't which at that point Vegeta was fighting Cell

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Goku's energy blasts would've only been slightly above 100% Frieza and even then Frieza's resilience against vastly stronger opponents and attacks is legendary, alwo 18 was unquantifiably stronger than Vegeta until she wasn't which at that point Vegeta was fighting Cell

Vegeta was about equal to Android 18, this was directly said by Trunks, and Piccolo even said Vegeta is gonna die not because he was too weak, but because she was outlasting his stamina

Frieza at 50% stopped the Kamehameha from KK20 Goku but by that logic he should absolutely destroy 50% Frieza and overpower 100% Frieza

 

[Fezzih_007]

Then his chain isn't really that high. Still at an AP disadvantage

It technically would't, but this is still a stomp, so I gonna stop arguing.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Pretty sure Goku needs to charge his Kamehameha for it to reach its maximum output, the one used against Frieza was instant.

 

[Huesito88]

Then his chain isn't really that high. Still at an AP disadvantage

Well if he scaled to 59 exaton in base then had great ape on top of that then they'd be about even in ap (not saying he wins this though)

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Piccolo did it with the special beam cannon, a specific move that was directly stated to dramatically increase power level temporarily if charged long enough. Saying this applies to all ki blasts is flat out wrong

I said more potent ones LOL, Piccolo is the obvious outlier hence the mention of highest multiplier ever

That's just a mouth blast. It's literally nothing special

I mean according to the other guy any move with any form of variation counts as it's own special ability

Vegeta was about equal to Android 18, this was directly said by Trunks, and Piccolo even said Vegeta is gonna die not because he was too weak, but because she was outlasting his stamina

Oh yeah, that moment. I mean you can same the exact same with any Dragon Ball character that's considered equal in power, generally needs a full power blast in order to kill them like that (assuming they also don't have a comparable energy blast to counter it). 18 has her own energy blasts.

Frieza at 50% stopped the Kamehameha from KK20 Goku but by that logic he should absolutely destroy 50% Frieza and overpower 100% Frieza

Honestly Frieza's daizensuu power levels are weird in general, however the logic would still be forced to apply since the kamehameha is specifically one of the moves with a stated multiplier when properly charged. We apply the exact same thing to Super Saiyan.

Pretty sure Goku needs to charge his Kamehameha for it to reach its maximum output, the one used against Frieza was instant.

That too

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Also yeah, I do agree animalistic does turn this into a overall stomp since Bardock lacks the actual tactics to utilize ki attacks that effectively, assuming that is true since it's not even on his profile (which it probably should either under intelligence or weaknesses)

 

[Chariot190]

Quite literally the only reason it has a variation is due to games, they are only named due to games giving them such. Explosive Wave is a Budokai Tenkaich term, on all accounts it's an random unnamed ki move, just like Vegeta's Maximum Finisher or Energy Wave.

Dont care. It's a use of ki that isnt commonly used or standard, prove he has it.
Also pretty damn sure it's in the Daizenshuu technique section.

Prove what exactly?

That he even has it.

I mean if we want to go with 'variation attacks count as anything, no matter how small' we have Mouth Energy Wave, a signature of the Oozaru form or Final Spirit Canon or Flash Spirit or.... you get the idea, the grand bulk of these are unnamed attacks. However due to what we know of Dragon Ball, energy wave type attacks can consistently boost a level of power by at least 2 times.

Don't care. Prove Bardock can bridge that gap, it's made explicit that jumping such gaps actually isn't standard for non-earthlings, even with ki attacks. Bardock of course, is somewhat noteworthy, but that doesn't tell us he can jump multiple times in power with a ki attack, because like it or not, doing that actually ISN'T standard.

And also, again, don't care what is named, what isn't, it's a technique all the same, prove he has it.

The source is 'its not a real special attack' because the entire fundamental idea behind it is just one of the most basic forms of ki

"Trust me bro" isn't a source.
Prove it's something anyone ever can do.

Just so I can post the ToP yap were Piccolo, the dude established having that technique, has to step in to do it.

I mean by same narrative Bardock can curbstomb a character with a tiny 2x ap gap than him due to power levels being BS and the actual ki attack increase is monumentally larger, Gohan for example goes from getting obliterated by Cui to obliterating him in one moment, but we don't do that here and we treat things like power increases as the multiplier given by power levels

That's a weakness for the verse, not a boon lad.
And, exactly, we don't do that here, yet that doesnt change the fact in context a tiny not 2x gap can be a stomp, so it's up to you to prove Bardock can bridge said gap out of context.
Class M Frieza and 16 dismembering dudes is funny, shit's an anti-feat against LS.

You, quite literally are, by putting calling these special variations due to the game logic

Prove he has it, stop beating around the bush. If you cant, he doesnt, end of.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I not sure why you guys talking about the AP advantage, when Bardock is waaay above the 296 Value he scales to, to the point the 2x advantage becomes irrelevant.

Waiting for the "unquantifable tho" 3 part essay

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Just so I can post the ToP yap were Piccolo, the dude established having that technique, has to step in to do it.

I don't quite remember this, can ya link it?

 

[Chariot190]

I don't quite remember this, can ya link it?

It's cut to shit tho, might just go download the ep and clip it if need be.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Dont care. It's a use of ki that isnt commonly used or standard, prove he has it.
Also pretty damn sure it's in the Daizenshuu technique section.

No, I believe the move you are thinking of is Piccolo's Explosive Power Demon Wave and it's Super variation. Explosive Wave itself is commonly used as it's a generic ability that's been used by Vegeta, Krillin, Goku, Trunks, Gohan, Buu, hell Cell as literal larva qualifies as using this. None of these examples have it named and it's just them suddenly deciding to blow up with no form of buildup.

Don't care. Prove Bardock can bridge that gap, it's made explicit that jumping such gaps actually isn't standard for non-earthlings, even with ki attacks. Bardock of course, is somewhat noteworthy, but that doesn't tell us he can jump multiple times in power with a ki attack, because like it or not, doing that actually ISN'T standard.

That's because Ki attacks aren't standard in dragon ball in general. The only characters shown capable of doing them (in universe 7) outside of earth are Saiyans, and the elite Friza Force members such as Dodoria, Zarbon, Frieza, and the Ginyu Force, every other soldier is incapable of using Ki and rely on laser cannons in order to attack. Bardock being a Saiyan capable of using Ki makes him different in that aspect

And also, again, don't care what is named, what isn't, it's a technique all the same, prove he has it.

"Trust me bro" isn't a source.
Prove it's something anyone ever can do.

Just so I can post the ToP yap were Piccolo, the dude established having that technique, has to step in to do it.

Explosive Wave itself isn't unique, Piccolo's Explosive Power Demon Wave is because one is a close range move used randomly by anyone that's never named in the series and the other is an actual nuke with the range of an island

That's a weakness for the verse, not a boon lad.
And, exactly, we don't do that here, yet that doesnt change the fact in context a tiny not 2x gap can be a stomp, so it's up to you to prove Bardock can bridge said gap out of context.

You are saying that as if that doesn't counter-act back to you, since these increases of power are more dramatic than what our uses for them use. Ki existing by it's nature increases the user's attack power, and using our metrics which we use for things like the Super Saiyan, Bardock using energy attacks is amplifying his attack power. To what extent is unknown but we have never seen an example below 2x for charge based wave moves which the Mouth Energy Wave the Oozaru use have.

Class M Frieza and 16 dismembering dudes is funny, shit's an anti-feat against LS.

boy I love how everything not telekinesis has unknown LS

Prove he has it, stop beating around the bush. If you cant, he doesnt, end of.

Prove that he doesn't have it, he has ki attacks, he can charge them, and he is considered a outlier in the universe due to being able to use ki

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I don't really care for the match itself, but the AP gap between Bardock and Omni-Man should be far smaller than 2x:

• Roshi performed the unfamous 5-C
• Krillin thinks that he could casually wipes Roshi's ass without any trouble
• Monaito is stronger than Krillin by having a power level of 213
• Monaito was treated as a weak old man thorugh the entire Bardock flashback

Bardock greatly upscales from Roshi's 5-C feat