Nuclear tier? (Meruem and Jagi)

[AshitaNoBardu]

Hi I have a question about how to consider nuclear-level feats. Mostly I was confused by the huge tier level difference between Jagi's 6B, that as far as I understand has been put in that position because he survived a nuclear blast (I'm not sure if Jagi Gaiden is canonical tbh, but that's another issue) and Meruem, that also (even tho barely) survived after a nuclear blast and is put only in low 7C pre-Rose Bomb. I understand that since Meruem almost died while Jagi didn't he should be put higher, and Idk if you calculated the power of the explosions and found a sensible difference in the destruction power of the rose bomb vs hokutoverse nuclear blasts (in that case I would be curious to see it, it seems weird tho because we only kinda know the dimension of the explosions not necessarily the force of it, and while those two can be related i think it would make sense, considering the different goal of the two weapons, that the Rose bomb explosion destructive potential would have been more concentrated, also while we can easily scale the Hokuto's explosion we can't really precisely scale the rose bomb explosion) the difference still seems way too wide (between low 7C and 7B the difference isn't something like x100/x500 or even way more?). Concluding I think it would make sense to lower Jagi a bit (I'd say around 6C) and at the same time put Meruem higher, since he survived a nuclear blast i think it would make sense to consider him a 7B in durability and possibly in striking strength (or at least low 7B). But I know you probably had long discussions before placing them so i guess as the new guy I'm just gonna ask the reasoning behind them to better understand how tiers are decided
P.S. In general, while I kinda agree with the placement of HxH main characters, I'm not completely convinced with the placement of top tiers of the verse in general, for example I have some doubts about Netero's placement in the tier 8 as well, those huge Buddha's had a striking capacity that to me looked at least small town level, but I will have to go read the topics about him before discussing it

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

in that case I would be curious to see it, it seems weird tho because we only kinda know the dimension of the explosions not necessarily the force of it

The power of an explosion is defined by its size. The explosion Jagi survived were bigger than countries, while the explosion Meruem survived was bigger than mountains. There is no comparison.

And Meruem doesn't scale for the explosion because he practically turned to dust

 

[AshitaNoBardu]

The power of an explosion is defined by its size. The explosion Jagi survived were bigger than countries, while the explosion Meruem survived was bigger than mountains. There is no comparison.

And Meruem doesn't scale for the explosion because he practically turned to dust

I don't know much about nukes but do they DIRECTLY scale to their size? Wouldn't it be possible to create more concentrated smaller explosions? I'm thinking about the "peaceful explosions" that were used in reality vefore the 90s for example. Btw those explosions doesn't seem country+ level, rather between large city+ and large mountain level

Then they appear bigger here seen from space, but there is not indicator that was exactly the total wideness of the actual explosion: being seen from space how can you distinguish between the explosion itself, the mushroom cloud and the light effect. Also there are bigger and smaller explosions and we have no way of knowing which one Jagi survived

Also I know Meruem can't directly scale to the explosion, but if we agree the explosion is around 7A wouldn't surviving it putting you AT LEAST at high 7C - low 7B level? I mean, someone able to crush a mountain would surely one-punch someone with small town durability wouldn't him?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I don't know much about nukes but do they DIRECTLY scale to their size?

Do you think a grenade has the same force as a nuclear explosion?

Then they appear bigger here seen from space, but there is not indicator that was exactly the total wideness of the actual explosion: being seen from space how can you distinguish between the explosion itself, the mushroom cloud and the light effect.

Method of planet curvature. It is possible to measure the size of the explosions with the planet.

Also there are bigger and smaller explosions and we have no way of knowing which one Jagi survived

That's another subject. If you don't think Jagi survived a explosion then create a downgrade thread, not a thread to compare Meruem's explosion with Jagi's explosion

 

[Thelastmlg]

The whole point of explosions is that the bigger they are, the more energy they need to expand, which makes them stronger.

A explosion the size of a countries needs energy to expand through hundreds of kilometers, obviously is going to be stronger than one that needs to expand like 1 or 2 km, and the growth is not really linear.

Yes you can create small concentrated explosions, but what do you mean exactly? We can't calc the "concentrated" energy of a small explosion if we have no lead, if it is small, it gets small tier, if it is big, it gets big tier, if it is small but has big tier for some reason (I.e. statements or scaling), it has big tier.

Also if meruem was dusted by the blast, he doesn't scale at all to it, not even a fraction, since the whole point is him being inferior to it, this is similar to chip damage argument, a 7-A can one shot a low 7-C if he actually scales to 7-A at all, if not, no, we can't really assume he is low 7-C because "he may have been one shooter but if he scales to even 1% of it he should be this" because there is no reason for him to scale.

Idk the feat in question since I don't watch HxH yet, but if he got one shooter, is weird to assume he scales at all to it beyond his regen saving him.

 

[AshitaNoBardu]

Do you think a grenade has the same force as a nuclear explosion?

No that's not what I meant, I know there is clearly a connection between wideness of the explosion and potency, what I was asking is if there is a DIRECT connection. There were irl cases of contained nuclear explosions for minerary escavations, and i was wondering if there is actually a PROPORTIONAL decline In power destruction with the decline in the area involved.
Btw yeah I've re-checked the calculations and seem they've already took the shroom/light-explosion difference in account. Still I don't understand why it is implied that the explosions are all the same and the smaller ones are just expanding explosions, there is no indicator for that at all

That's another subject. If you don't think Jagi survived a explosion then create a downgrade thread, not a thread to compare Meruem's explosion with Jagi's explosion

No i agree Jagi survived the explosion, I'm not sure about the wideness of it compared to Meruem's one that's why I made a topic comparing them. Mainly being new I'm stil kinda learning the tiering system so I wouldn't know if Jagi is the one to downgrade or Meruem to upgrade, I just think the difference in tier between them should somehow be made smaller because I don't see much difference in capacity (also honestly if we don't take the Gaiden in account but only original HnK series the difference seems even weirder considering he never actually showed any of his feats there, nor did Ken until around the end of the first part, and not to such a degree)

 

[AshitaNoBardu]

The whole point of explosions is that the bigger they are, the more energy they need to expand, which makes them stronger.

A explosion the size of a countries needs energy to expand through hundreds of kilometers, obviously is going to be stronger than one that needs to expand like 1 or 2 km, and the growth is not really linear.

Yes you can create small concentrated explosions, but what do you mean exactly? We can't calc the "concentrated" energy of a small explosion if we have no lead, if it is small, it gets small tier, if it is big, it gets big tier, if it is small but has big tier for some reason (I.e. statements or scaling), it has big tier.

Also if meruem was dusted by the blast, he doesn't scale at all to it, not even a fraction, since the whole point is him being inferior to it, this is similar to chip damage argument, a 7-A can one shot a low 7-C if he actually scales to 7-A at all, if not, no, we can't really assume he is low 7-C because "he may have been one shooter but if he scales to even 1% of it he should be this" because there is no reason for him to scale.

Idk the feat in question since I don't watch HxH yet, but if he got one shooter, is weird to assume he scales at all to it beyond his regen saving him.

He's not one-shooted by the explosion tho, since he survive, he's severely damaged and risking his life. There is no explicit indicator that the explosion is more concentrated than a normal nuke, but since the different goal between the two nuclear blast (large-scale military purpose in HnK, eliminating one target in HxH) i think it's plausible

 

[Thelastmlg]

Here is the thing:

1. Those tiers are earned via tier, not belief, in order to avoid subjectiveness and bias, we work with what we got.

2. Nah the wideness affects their power a lot, again, explosions waste too much energy to expand, the bigger the radius, the more energy wasted, and there is a formula which uses bigger distances have enormous gaps, plus you have to remember that countries are IMMENSELY bigger than mountains, like, it ridiculous, I think you can fit like a thousand mountains on small countries.

3. We can't work with plausibleness, just direct info, we just have to assume the blast works like a normal one.

4. Then why was it said he was dusted by it or something? Actually can I get some scans to see it? I think I have seen it before but I don't remember, as far as I know, surviving and being conscient after a attack, even if heavily damaged, still let's you downscale from it.

 

[AshitaNoBardu]

2. Nah the wideness affects their power a lot, again, explosions waste too much energy to expand, the bigger the radius, the more energy wasted, and there is a formula which uses bigger distances have enormous gaps, plus you have to remember that countries are IMMENSELY bigger than mountains, like, it ridiculous, I think you can fit like a thousand mountains on small countries.

Ok agree with 1 and 3 (even tho I think it should be valid as well for considering smaller and bigger explosions as "of the same size at different stage" like the calc did, since there's no evidence for that. At the opposite, we know nukes have different range, so why would we assume they're all the same here?). But the smaller explosions to me seems more on a island level at top and in the image above where they're shown not from above but from below they don't even seem that much above city or mountain level (but they may be very very distant so Idk)

4. Then why was it said he was dusted by it or something? Actually can I get some scans to see it? I think I have seen it before but I don't remember, as far as I know, surviving and being conscient after a attack, even if heavily damaged, still let's you downscale from it.

He was dusted and near-dead but survived and was revived by the guards. I know you have to tank an attack to be on that tier, but I think surviving is already kind of a feat. I've take another look at the explosion anyway and it is AT LEAST large mountain (if not large mountain+), basically an entire valley of wide and way more than mountains by eight. So we have explosion tier high 7A/high 7A+ > High 7A > 7A > high 7B > 7B > low 7B > high 7 C > 7C > low 7C/Meruem. Aren't those way too much grades of separation?

 

[Thelastmlg]

1. Again, we do calcs, not belief.

2. This wiki is not only for meruem or jagi, if they are far away from each other so be it.

3. Yeah don't think he should scale, we don't tend to give tiers just for surviving attacks, you have to survive and be able to still fight or at least act, if you are near incapacitated you downscale too much to be on the same tier.

4. Then recalc the explosion or ask someone to recalc it, but heads up, a valley and a mountain range is way smaller than a country, plus making a explosion as big as a mountain range is not the same as destroying it, so that explosion can still just be low 7-B or 7-A

 

[Zaratthustra]

Different explosions have different yields of power. If the explosions showed don't have any other statement then it will get a tier on what it shows, no more no less.

It either needs a big feat to show or either to have a good statement, you cant go by plausible things. I've seen the series and Meruem got one shot by the Poor's Man Rose. He was dying and barely alive.

 

[AshitaNoBardu]

1. Again, we do calcs, not belief.

2. This wiki is not only for meruem or jagi, if they are far away from each other so be it.

Ok but "there are big and small explosion on the map and the smaller are like 1/20 of the biggest" is not a belief, it's a fact, I posted the image above. In the calculation it is written they are equal explosion at different stages and that's why they seem smaller, but there are actually no evidence for that, so I'd say that falls into the "belief" category as well. At the very least I think the calculation should be remade (I'm totally not able to tbh) calculating both the smaller and the biggest one, and then putting the tier at "at least smaller calc - possibly actual/higher calc". Also I don't know if non-contradiction with the original work is taken in account when doing those evaluations, if they are it should be another argument for using the Lower indicators, since during the original series Jagi didn't showed even the tiniest part of this supposed power (even tho I know that if we strictly followed coherence/non contradiction a large part of especially the highest/cosmical level characters wouldn't make any sense since a lot of them supposedly should destroy stars just by fighting with fists with same-level enemies, still I think they can come handy when something is somehow unclear)

3. Yeah don't think he should scale, we don't tend to give tiers just for surviving attacks, you have to survive and be able to still fight or at least act, if you are near incapacitated you downscale too much to be on the same tier.

I didn't say same tier, I know he is clearly lower than Rose bomb tier, but I mean the difference between being dead/being near-dead isn't a small difference, for example Frieza is i think large planet level, wouldn't he one-shot (as in: killed in one shot) a moon level like master Roshi or 22nd tournament kid Goku/Tienshinan?

4. Then recalc the explosion or ask someone to recalc it, but heads up, a valley and a mountain range is way smaller than a country, plus making a explosion as big as a mountain range is not the same as destroying it, so that explosion can still just be low 7-B or 7-A

True but it was bigger than a mountain. I would post the images from the Manga but I have no idea how to attach an image that has no URL (as you may have seen with the other post I made ) so if someone is able to explain me I'll be very grateful
P.S. I'm not saying Jagi and Meruem should be at the same level, but Jagi is literally "the weak brother" of Hokuto and none of the strongest ones except second part Ken ever showed such feats, so Idk seems contradictory to me to put it THAT high

 

[Cyberblader90]

hmm the calc we use might have issues with curvature :

Hokuto no Ken- Taking the Majima Everywhere System too goddamn far

vsbattles.fandom.com

(old calc used explosions that weren't lined up with the curvature properly)
Earth: 12 742 000m and 600px
Explosion diameter: 10px or 212 366,6666m, radius: 106 183,333m

Star Wars vs Star Trek: Nuclear Weapon Effects Calculator

Fireball ground contact airburst
287 000 megatons or 287 Gigatons of TNT
Assuming (fairly generously) it was like 2 body lengths away or 3.5m, and 0.9m^2 surface area (if dude taller, both increase)
Area: 153,938
Ratio: x0,0058465
Energy: 1,68 Gigatons of TNT Small Island level Moderate Highball

calc done by a friend

 

[Thelastmlg]

1. Their size are pretty equal, they look small because of perspective, they are each different nukes, but as far as I know they are the same kind of bombs and even then the smallest ones are still country sized.

You are arguing AOE fallacies rn, we are talking about the yield, not the character being consistent or anything, and this is a durability feat.

2. If he ain't the same tier, he simply doesn't scale, we can't give them a arbitrary ranting because the difference between near death and fine is also arbitrary and not very quantifiable.

3. You are again arguing belief and scaling, this is all about yield, it matters not if jagi feels too weak, he has a feat, we calc it, it is what it is, if you want both feats to be recalced, ask someone to do it, but until them, it won't change much.

And even then, the difference between a mountain a small country is Immense, plus mountain sizes varies

 

[AshitaNoBardu]

hmm the calc we use might have issues with curvature :

Hokuto no Ken- Taking the Majima Everywhere System too goddamn far

vsbattles.fandom.com

(old calc used explosions that weren't lined up with the curvature properly)
Earth: 12 742 000m and 600px
Explosion diameter: 10px or 212 366,6666m, radius: 106 183,333m

Star Wars vs Star Trek: Nuclear Weapon Effects Calculator

Fireball ground contact airburst
287 000 megatons or 287 Gigatons of TNT
Assuming (fairly generously) it was like 2 body lengths away or 3.5m, and 0.9m^2 surface area (if dude taller, both increase)
Area: 153,938
Ratio: x0,0058465
Energy: 1,68 Gigatons of TNT Small Island level Moderate Highball

calc done by a friend

So using this Jagi tier would be something like "At least low 6C, likely high 6C, possibly 6B". And low 6C seems way more coherent with what we've seen in the original series tbh (yeah I know, if older Manga were coherent golden saints should have destroyed millions of galaxies with their fights, still...)

 

[AshitaNoBardu]

1. Their size are pretty equal, they look small because of perspective, they are each different nukes, but as far as I know they are the same kind of bombs and even then the smallest ones are still country sized.

According to the guy above they're small island size, but I'm not able to check it so Idk. I don't see why they supposedly should be the same kind of bomb. And no, it's clearly not perspective since you have more distant explosions looking bigger than nearer ones

You are arguing AOE fallacies rn, we are talking about the yield, not the character being consistent or anything, and this is a durability feat.

2. If he ain't the same tier, he simply doesn't scale, we can't give them a arbitrary ranting because the difference between near death and fine is also arbitrary and not very quantifiable.

3. You are again arguing belief and scaling, this is all about yield, it matters not if jagi feels too weak, he has a feat, we calc it, it is what it is, if you want both feats to be recalced, ask someone to do it, but until them, it won't change much.

And even then, the difference between a mountain a small country is Immense, plus mountain sizes varies

I understand this, i think consistency should be taken in account only if the measurements possible are more than one like in this case

 

[Thelastmlg]

They aren't small island sized, the durability feat itself is small island because he took surface area into account, which loweres it, but you also need to do that to meruem anyway.

Also gotta put it on a blog to be evaluated and all, but yeah, every explosion feat is lowered because surface area and inverse square law