Novel Kars vs BB

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

That doesn't really answer my question. And even if it was up prefight would she not need to think to screw Kars over, like he can't use said ability or something because as it was described to me multiple times, it sounds like she needs to have an input on what happens. How dies the moon cell having the power to sustain multiple marbles matter here, the problem at hand is if it's up from the start of the fight, unless I'm misunderstanding sustaining means she can use multiple while normally she'd be hard pressed.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

The Moon Cell keeps Reality Marbles up constantly through its power, and BB does the same throughout the game, constantly messaging the player and genuinely screwing with them and their Servant however she pleases until they actually manage to reach her sanctum in SE.RA.PH., upon which she enters her Moon Cancer form and becomes dead serious.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Okay, but from what I've been told she needs to manually say what goes and what doesnt, as in every instance its been described to me that appears to be the case. As all Kars need a to do is a single technique, not aimed at her with no harm done towards her, therefore not being nulled by a authority. Unless you're telling me Kars can't perform D4C which takes nothing mire than a thought I'm gonna need a scan of it passively nulling an ability that's not nulled by her authority.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

Who said that? Reality Marbles are a reflection of one's Inner World and tied to one's soul. For example, Shirou's Reality Marble can fire swords just by thinking about it, allowing him to match Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon's firing speed.

It's also pretty hard to jump through time and space when she can freeze them at will with Domina Cornam to prevent transport.

She can also transport her target into a "Bug Space" where Kars is no more significant than a bug and can be tortured at her leisure.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Every mention of it says she can do this or that and manipulate this or that with not much implying it's all passive. Because time and space manip is useless against Kars, not only did he day so himself but it's heavily supported by MIH and the resets doing nothing, time stop does nothing, time rewind does nothing, etc coupled with acasuality that wont stop him from doing he needs to do and being immune to willpower manip and cause and effect manip powerscalibg off DIO (who got those powers from eating a weaker alt Kars) Anyway this implies that she needs to at least think about screwing Kars over while Kars just needs to activate D4C. Everything from there on wont matter to him as hes in a different universe, hell he could get rid of the moon cell in bith by sending a a thousand or so dupes to paradox them out of existence or copying some potential powers there by copy/adaption+organically processing data which he showed to be able to do or using Whitesnaje to inject the powers into himself manually. Anyway, coukd ya please provide a scan of Channel nulling a decent ability that 10 crowns didnt already render useless.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

Note that she can freeze space as well. He can't move if space doesn't.

Immunity is a very strong word. Provide evidence of immunity.

D4C requires a thought as well since they're manifestations of one's mental energy.

Potnia Therion just stops whatever Kars is going to try to do to her. Unless you mean to tell me that he is beyond the concepts of life and death.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Kars doesn't need to move to use D4C, he's already in contact with things that could trigger D4C. Ya want evidence of being immune to time manip? Well I can go find the statement later as I'm on a phone but considering it was said after he adapted to all forms of time manip shown in the book excluding erased which he scales off people who Fodderize a time eraser and the fact GER is fodder to him, ie something that can move in erased time and has strong casuality manip and said causility manip doesn't effect Kars. And ya say Potnua stops it but why would It? It's not done towards her to harm her, it isn't effecting her, etc. Hes simply using it go somewhere else and then probably send in dupes which would get beat but hed be abke to view them getting beat and understand her concepts and powers, thus allowing him to devise a counter from the safety of a alt universe. As for D4C, yeah it requires a thought but it only requires one, while hers tend to gave a middle man ie a thought or two is activating abilities then using them in some cases while Kars doesn't need to manifest D4C, he just needs to use the ability which he can do without the stand. Anyway, the scan would be nice if it exists, or at least a statement from the game suggesting it.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

He can be between whatever he wants. If he isn't able to step through in any way, he can't do a thing. Hence why freezing space would stop him in his tracks and prevent him from timeline hopping.

Resistance is meaningless before Potnia Therion, which explicitly nullifies any resistance to her attacks unless they have an ability that explicitly usurps her authority (such as Gil's full power and the Zero Unit versions of the Player's Servants which are explicitly outside of her domain).

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Would existing in a void grant Kars, space manip resists, cause It's stated right that GER was powerless before DIO plus everything it did was nothing to DIO, right after sending Pucci into an eternal (black) void for eternity. Space manip probably ain't a problem. And once again, him losing resists doesn't stop him from D4C-ing, the only thing that would, would be if Channel is up from the start and it nulls D4C regardless without needing to actively render D4C moot. As with speed equal they each get one thought, Kars would D4C away then he basically wins at thst point as he can't be harmed and he has all the tools to beat her while she has the tools at the start it's more a problem if can she do it before he D4C's away ie in a single thought without activating anything. And with speed equal it's literally a matter of one thought.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

If he's constrained by space before, the void thing is probably an outlier.

His resistance still gets lolnoped by Potnia Therion.

Does Kars normally D4C right off the bat? Or are you making an assumption.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

What do you mean by constrained by space? Pucci got stomped hard, its the fact DIO with the powers of Kars is explicitly above everything GER can do including voids, which it did no less than 5 pages prior in the previous scene plus it can't really be an outlier, when theirs multiple Stands with infinite speed, he survived the other stuff, no upper limits were shown outside of a single durability feat which was later proven wrong as it literally happened and he was fine after, everything involving haxes he eventually adapted and copied, etc. Never said his resists would matter, its the fact with D4C he won't need to worry about her hax as hed send dupes in (he utilizes dupes, literally killed off like 20 just to get near Ult Dio) they'd get fodderized and hed understand her po were and implying he doesn't copy it adapt, he coukd easily prevent her from getting them or steal them himself using BTD (which he used against DIO prior to even stealing it to prevent him from gimping him and adapting and copying his power) After he got it which is by the end, the next fight he was in started off with him utilizing D4C, basically from what I've got to go off it's an opener attack, prior to that Das Boot and Whitesnake are openers.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

BB can freeze space so that nothing within it can move except her. Time still flows and her opponent think, but they won't be able to move a finger since space around them has been prevented from moving (much like being sealed in concrete).

Of course, that wouldn't matter with Kars' resistances nullified.

If he's normally constrained by space and time then yes it's an outlier. But as I've said several times now, BB can freeze space alone to prevent her enemies from moving. After that it's just a matter of wiping him out of existence.

They wouldn't be able to get close to her in the first place. Even if she decides to not use C.C.C. right off the bat, she can obliterate them all with her other attacks before going for hax.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

She's a compute program, ie technological, so I doubt he can copy her powers. Also, unless she starts outright telling him about her authority and when she got it, he is not going to find out that he needs to go back in time to kill her.

Plus BB can absorb any fodder Kars he sends in and gain their abilities and experience to get stronger

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I think you misunderstand or are missing my point, yes she can null his haxes, yes she can ohko yes she can gimp him but she needs to think to do that correct? They both need a thought to get them the win, its literally a matter of who goes first but speed is equal they both go first, logically speaking Kars one thought us spent D4C-ing away, hers is doing one of many things but what thing, would she do something thst would gimp him first or something else? Who knows. I didn't bring up the dupes because they're a threat, I br ought them up because they'd get fodderized, which Kars would see and hed adapt a plan to counter. @Monarch Kars has shown to be able to organically process and manipulate data before, think something akin to the X from Netroid I guess. As for him finding out, its not really a matter of finding out but rather just seeing, its essentially his main power, seeing something and understanding everything about it including some of which he shouldn't be able to know. Plus hed still likely use BTD if his clones got fodderized, he used it before when an enemy put him in a corner so he coukd devise a plan and hard counter them. Anyway, this boils down to who goes first basically and whoever does wins.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

Does Kars resort to D4C first normally? Answer the question.

I don't see how BB blasting all of his duplicates with a laser beam is indicative of her powers.

How could he use Bites the Dust if there's nothing for him to use it on and he can't get close to her due to her hax and his lack of resistance to it before her might?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

What I already answered your question regarding D4C and It's usage. Doesnt actively need too, just needs to witness her, his clones failing to do anything would be enough. He can use BTD on himself (as he did, a few extremely large number of times, enough to rewind 10 quadrillion years worth if time) , Kira in the novel also lacked the need of a host so no, he doesn't need a host.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

This is assuming that BB's Reality Marble doesn't screw him over first by making his abilities chaotic and out of his control.

In addition, he still needs to touch something to use Bites the Dust. Can't do that with time and space frozen.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Ya still haven't actually provided evidence of her reality marble doing that, as far as I'm aware it's more of she can control whatever but still requires her to think about doing it. Anyway ya still have yet to provide evidence of her reality marble doing that without her authority being involved. Plus his abilities getting chatuc would entail What? What would it do to D4C as that's the only one that would matter initially, cause him to get transported to a universe not of his choosing? Ya say itd be chaotic, assuming it's passive but what would it do? Plus frozen space wouldn't matter, unless Kars sits on his ass and let's her do plenty of things prior to his one thing it wouldn't matter, BTD would be used in the alt universe not the one she's in initially anyway (just like in the novel against DIO). You're constantly talking like the battle starts off with frozen time and space, her reality marble is already up and itd null all his abilities instantly plus plenty of other things, even assuming the marble is up ya have yet to actually provide evidence that it would null his abilities without her thinking of doing so without ten crowns' help.

 

[Reppuzan]

Official description of her Reality Marble:

"It draws out the power of the Moon Cell, and she transforms into an invincible nurse. From her territory of imaginary space, she brings out malicious information and rewrites the surrounding channel (shared perception) into chaos. The Reality Marble "BB Channel Branch-Off Edition" expands, and throws the target into a crucible of chaos..."

As we stated before, she is the game master while all others under her authority are but mere players. Thus things will always go her way, so things will backfire, attacks will fail to do anything, among other events.

Her authority is always active, so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Razerboy36]

Wait what about Made in Heaven? Couldn't he just move at infinite speed and reset the world?

 

[Razerboy36]

Wait what about Made in Heaven? Couldn't he just move at infinite speed and reset the world?

Wait if speed is equalized could he even do that? Also couldn't he just use D4C to escape CCC?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Razer

She could stop it in so many ways. Freezing time before he picks up speed, freezing space so he can't move any more, erasing the concept of Kars and/or Made in Heaven e.t.c.

 

[Razerboy36]

@Razer
She could stop it in so many ways. Freezing time before he picks up speed, freezing space so he can't move any more, erasing the concept of Kars and/or Made in Heaven e.t.c.

Kars has the World so he can Stop time in stopped time.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

>she brings out malicious information and rewrites the surrounding channel (shared perception) into chaos. Implies it's manual, she needs to actively rewrite stuff and it aint passive, only the chaos part is which as far as im aware wont straight up prevent Kars from universe hopping, it coukd screw with him but wont actively orevent it, unless ya can provide evidence of it lolnoping something akin to D4C like dimension hopping ir teleportation or something at least. Im aware her authority is always active, not why i kept bringing it up. And this is all assuming she doesnt gave to activate her reality marble, for argument's sake i'll ignore it.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Razer

Potnia Therion removes all resistances to BB's attacks and nullifies all abilities that would affect BB for as long as the target is born of the Earth (of which Kars is) and renders them as if they never happened.

Kar's Time Stop would fall under the latter part of the description.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

What's stopping her from just freezing Kars in place from the start (since it's her first move in the manga)?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

This is irrelevant, ignoring the Nlf of Kars' adaption and reactive evolution towards haxes of all manners as that'd be grasping a straws, viable straws, but still straws you're assuming she'd get off time stop, space freeze, null all his abilities including ones thst don't effect her and more before Kars can think "D4C", add the fact that this is speed equal assuming she can get thst much done is unrealistic. And unrelated but MIH diesntctake longest all, in under a second his speed would be multiplied by millions, in a minute septillions, or whatever is needed to cause 36+ death and rebirth of the universe in around a minute. On a side note MIH effects himself and time, not his opponents.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Well that depends, is this the manga incarnation of said character? And is thst her usual opening attack? As apparently this is a deciding factor, how often does she actually lead with that.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

You seem to be assuming these are all separate techniques. Domina Cornam: The Ten Crowns is a facet of Potnia Therion that allows her to decide the physical laws of the world. If she wants time to freeze, done. If she wants space to be frozen, done. If she wants Kars to not exist, done.

Fair point about her manga incarnation.

That said, the only reason why she didn't use it on the heroes in the game proper was the fact that her crush on the player made her want to see them survive along with the fact that they were not subject to her authority due to being an AI Construct created on the moon. She instantly used Domina Cornam and the Golden Grail to stomp Gawain, nullifying his Excalibur Galatine and pouring the Grail's contents on him.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

No but im assuming theyre seperate thoughts, ie she wants time frozen, she thinks of freeing time, space frozen, same thing, etc. All Kars needs is a thought, are you implying Kars can't even get a three sylable thought off? Also you yourself are making an assumption. You're assuming the only reason she didn't lead with space freeze or the like is CIS but why, what suggests she would of done that otherwise? Is there any proof? What doies she actually lead with normally? Yes she stomped him but what did she initiate with? Even touching Kars or Kars touching air or the like will allow him to D4C, the grail wouldn't be exactly a safe option, if any of the contents touch him sure that part is kinda done for but the rest of him is able to use D4C now. Even Funny has had some good uses out of that, like using steam, train wheels, water droplets, a fatal blow from wrecking ball passing right through him with a chunk of his head existing in a different universe simutaneously.

 

[Razerboy36]

@Reppuzan

What if Kars goes into a dimension with D4C where everyone is born on Mars and grabs himself from there? or a version of BB from there? He could also learn how to use all of her techniques due to his conceptual understanding, just like he learned about hamon.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

You're making bad assumptions again. She just thinks, "Domina Cornam", and suddenly all the physical laws of the world are hers to control. She abused this skill so much in the game that she intentionally nerfed herself in Fate/Grand Order.

@Razerboy

That's assuming he doesn't get haxed to death first.

 

[SITHISIT]

could we get back on topic of the actual battle instead of just a content revision debate sort of thing?

Also Kars for reasons above

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

See there it is, >for her to control. Which once again implies she has to control the various aspects. And ya didnt touch on anything else I said. I'd appreciate it if you actively tried to debate the entirety of what I said so I don't need to bring it up again, it just serves as clutter.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

That very Moon Cell is what BB became. She gained the perspective of a higher dimension. That's why... BB can make use of the past and the future at the same time. When she reached the core, she gained the power to choose and ascertain the future. ...though it makes the head spin. That's because the moment BB became the Moon Cell, she could inform her past self of "this present moment.".

Rin: If it were a loop we might still have hope, but that's not it. BB broke through the protective wall, and in the instant she enveloped the Core, became the Moon Cell. And in the Moon Cell the concept of time in our observable universe does not exist. She is already in both the past and the future.

Hakuno: She's saying she'll destroy the universe. The girl in black announces it, not as a bluff or a metaphor, but as if it were natural.

The fact that BB had reached the Moon Cell core established this "place", formerly imaginary space for storing malicious information, as real space in the present, past and future. It was reconstructed at her hands as a "Far Side of the Moon" where even Master can exist. BB, attaining the power of the primordial goddess, succeeded in quantifiying the "nothingness" before the birth of life. She transformed into a master of imaginary space where time and space are indefinite. While the Moon Cell can't be hacked, much time is spent and BB was able to take control of it by placing herself in "unlimited time".

There also exists the Far Side of the Moon, an imaginary space known as the trash bin that is used for storing malicious information and imaginary numbers. Sealed off as "Not For Use" information, it is a higher dimension where the light within the photon crystals is jumbled.


This is some stuff about BB I found interesting. Taking into consideration her vast amount of different manipulation abilities, reality warping, existence erasure, etc. I'm gonna side with her in this battle. To my knowledge, there were never any showings in JoJo of characters who could resist this, let alone shrug it off like it's nothing.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

For what it's worth time manip, casuality manipulation and even worlds whhere life, death, time, dont exist and nothing can happen and nothing you do if you even can matters etc, all of which are anything to Kars, Kars also syrvived the life and death of 36 universes without so much as even bothering to care. Plus Kars is acasual.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Question - "she is already in both the past and the future."

That sounds a hell of a lot like Tiamat's independent manifestation and presence across space-time. Which would make sense BB would have seeing as she absorbed Tiamat's data along with the other earth mother goddess's data.

And independent manifestation = acausality. Which means Kar's only way of hurting her, via time travel, is no longer an option.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Neither Kars nor the WU are acausal. The World Ultimate has resistance to causality manipulation. To be acausal, you need to still be around after your past self dies, not resist the causality manipulation of another being. That only qualifies as resistance.

But anyway, this is now a stomp in BB's favour.

If "she is already in both the past and the future", then that means that no matter how far back Kars goes, she's already there, with all of her authority, so he can never harm her.

Everything else he can do is no-selled by authority, while everything she does to him, even if he does adapt and evolve to it, goes straight through thanks to authority.

The most he can do is hide in another D4CU universe for the rest of his life. Which I would say qualifies as incap, seeing as he isn't doing anything to BB from there.

This is BB's win.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Except Kars retroactively adapted after his future self got beat, his past self ended up adapting to something he technically never encountered. And he technically can still bypass her authority with D4C, as Razer said, he could go to a universe where the history of mankind is completely different and get a Kars from there or a BB which would bypass her ten crowns as she's an AI construct so she'd ignore Ten Crowns but he can grab said BB prior her getting said power, as long as it's from a different universe and if it's like Novel Funny, worse comes to worse he can use MIH to reset the universe he goes too and prevent plenty of things and gave it all play out on his whim to essentially devise a l counter, which there are and this would be within seconds to minutes.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Except Kars retroactively adapted after his future self got beat, his past self ended up adapting to something he technically never encountered.

This doesn't show acausality. This shows things being bizarre.

And he technically can still bypass her authority with D4C, as Razer said, he could go to a universe where the history of mankind is completely different and get a Kars from there or a BB which would bypass her ten crowns as she's an AI construct so she'd ignore Ten Crowns but he can grab said BB prior her getting said power, as long as it's from a different universe and if it's like Novel Funny, worse comes to worse he can use MIH to reset the universe he goes too and prevent plenty of things and gave it all play out on his whim to essentially devise a l counter, which there are and this would be within seconds to minutes.

No he couldn't. The universes D4CU lets Kars travel to are spontaneously created by Kars/D4CU or Valentine/D4CU . Those are all beings born of the earth. Which means those universes, and everything in them, are born of earth by proxy, and cannot do anything to BB.

And there is no "BB before she got her power". That's what the guy above was saying. "She is already in the past and the future". She absorbed the data of Tiamat and gained her power to exist across all of space-time. Whether that includes parallel universes I don't know, I'll need Rep to answer that, but regardless, there is no "past BB" that Kars can harm to affect "present BB" because there is only one BB across all of time.

Also, BB freely rewrites the laws of the world. Even if it could happen, which it wouldn't because of what I just said, it would take no time at all for her to just rewrite the universal law that causes the menger sponging to happen so it couldn't affect her. And could affect Kars.

Considering BB resists time manip, can place herself in indeterminate space, and has control over the time axis, she can counter MIH with ease.