Novel Kars vs BB

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Kars in character is all over the place but he'd be well aware of when to use it regardless, Kars always used his arsenal yo it's fullest in the novel, the only exception was when he fought DIO but they were both trying to see how immortal they were so they let their opponent splatter them over and over, outside of that and when he started getting sick of DIOs shit he pulled out hax.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Oh alright then. Ok, I guess Kars goes back before BB got her authority and kills her then

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Bump

 

[Der_Purple_Ist_Dank]

Unless a better argument for BB is made I'm gonna vote for Kars for the reasons above.

 

[Lu_Bane]

Going out on a branch here, but if she can erase and rewrite the world at conceptual levels, couldn't she simply delete the concept of time from ever existing, either freezing or negating his ability to time travel? I'm not sure how it would affect him so I'm simply pulling sh*t from my tired brain.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The thing is, neither of them know what the other is capable of, but the moment they pulls out their big guns (CCC and time travel) they've won.

Although, unless BB actually boasts about how she ate the earth mother goddesses and gained their authority and that is why Kars can't harm her, going back in time to kill her is not going to be his first move, while her first move would activating the BB show and warping everything to go her way. She could even write a law that says "Kars cannot copy my abilities" once she realises he can copy what he sees.

I'll switch back to BB. Time travel is the only way Kars can kill her, but it is not likely to be the first thing he is going to think of, while she has more ways to neg his powers, rewrite his concept and generally screw him over.

 

[Lu_Bane]

Plus, if he was on Earth, she would have all the knowledge about him that she needs. She's the A.I. of the Moon Cell, a computer that scans EVERYTHING on the Earth every millionth of a second or something like that, and it has been doing that for tens of millions of years, I think even in the hundreds of millions of years. That's how the Moon Cell was able to even recreate all of Humanity within its systems in the first place. Nothing of the earth's existence has escaped its scan, not a single atom and not even someone like Tiamat.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Actually all things considered, Kars probably would just go back in time to kill her basically coupled with his understanding if concepts hed likely realize exactly what the problem us and do exactly that, it may sound like a nlf but Kars pulls shit out his ass inclydingvstuff he should have no reason knowing, stuff that is impossible for all accounts and purposes. Plus saying it isn't something he wouldn't do at the start doesn't quite matter, be only ever got it near the end. Add the fact Kars has a potential in retroactive adaption, ie he can adapt to something his future self failed too and get the memeories of future self over time it likely still wouldnt matter as hed know what to do before the fight even started.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I very very much doubt he would work out "oh the reason I can't affect her in any way is because I am born of earth and thus I can't defy her authority, but if I go back in time to a point when she didn't have the earth mother's authority I can kill her" seeing as unless she starts boasting about it there is literally nothing about her pointing to it.

Nothing he can do can affect her except time travelling back to a specific point in time before she obtained the earth mother's authority and killing her. That is the one and only thing he can do to affect her. She on the other hand can erase the concept of "reactive evolution" and "power copying" and write laws of reality saying "Kars can't use his powers" to null his abilities and "Kars cannot exist" to erase him.

He has exactly one thing he can do to harm her, which out of all his other abilities, he is unlikely to use. She on the other hand can kill him in far more ways as well as neg his powers

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

And Lu, Kars was actually on Mars for 10 quadrillion years, earth reset 36+ times so not sure how much that could help. On a side note as adaption+time travel is still easily an option, can she counter a different universe Kars, potentially a nigh infinite amount all with the same powers as even if he failed to adapt at first and ignoring retroactive adaption he could adapt off seeing them fight and devise a counter.

 

[Lu_Bane]

And Lu, Kars was actually on Mars for 10 quadrillion years, earth reset 36+ times so not sure how much that could help.

.......d(._.')b.......what...the ****?

 

[Lu_Bane]

Anyway, if they're battling now, then he was on the Earth the Moon Cell has been scanning, thus it still would have scanned him.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Different franchise's earth so irrelevant. Same with your example about the moon cell Lu Bane, although unlike Kars, BB could just put her self in imaginary space where he can't reach and she has infinite time to get the Moon Cell to analyse her.

Considering CCC's massive AoE and her laws of reality that affect everything, yes she can take down different universe Kars quite easily.


Moreso, nothing he can do can affect her except time travelling back to a specific point in time before she obtained the earth mother's authority and killing her. That is the one and only thing he can do to affect her. She on the other hand can erase the concept of "reactive evolution" and "power copying" and write laws of reality saying "Kars can't use his powers" to null his abilities and "Kars cannot exist" to erase him.

He has exactly one thing he can do to harm her, which out of all his other abilities, he is unlikely to use. She on the other hand can kill him in far more ways as well as neg his powers first thing just to screw with him.

BB takes this

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

You're making an assumption on what Kars wouldn't it couldn't do, all things considered Kars would likely use D4C, take off to an alternate universe, send in clones, watch how that plays out from a different universe and using his conceptual understanding. understand why his alternate universe selfs cant do anything, then follow that up with time travel. He doesn't even need to go back to said universe, he could use BTD to go back in time to the alternate universe he's in, grab a past BB he can then effect, and the D4C back to the other universe and have them fuse into merger sponges and be forced out of existence. And this is actually something that would be in character.

 

[Lu_Bane]

Can he do that with a technological/data entity?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yeah, he has manipulated data before and intangible things. Not sure what you're asking though, if ya mean the paradox, this applies to anything, not just people, any two of the same thing.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Won't work. D4CU lets Kars create new timelines. But they are still something he created, which means they are born of the earth by proxy, so they won't be able to affect BB thanks to her authority. So menger sponging her won't work either.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

It also allows him to go to different universes regardless of if he created them or not. Hell if he REALLY wanted too he could go to a different universe, take the entire moon cell and cause it to paradox the actual one out if existence.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the timelines D4CU lets you travel to are spontaneously created

 

[Arigarmy]

Some of the timelines he could use would've been made by Valentine, not Kars.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Valentine is also born of the earth

 

[Arigarmy]

I was just adding to J-Man's statement. I'm not going to attempt to try and make a statement on who wins, I'm too baffled right now to try and be confident in a decision.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

D4C also allows for dimendional travel, if the universe exists he can go to it. Unrelated though as this doesn't exactly stop Kars from doing what I said previously ie D4C+conceptual understanding+BTD+D4C.

 

[Arigarmy]

Though I do have a question, how would menger sponge not work? You don't have to be the one to cause it, it's a matter of distance between you and your parallel self before you pull your two selves in and destroy each other permanently. Unless I'm missing something or don't get how she works, it'd be BB causing another BB to collide and end her, yeah? Not too keen on how she works, though.

Also, would it be possible to simply BFR her from D4CU? Just curious.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Oretty sure anything from earth is rendered null, the bb clone being an product of Kars rendering it useless I think. Not that it matters, I already described the events of what would play out, in character for Kars too with the added bonus that it doesn't matter what she does to that universe or the alternate Kars as it won't effect what Kars would do to get the win and she can't prevent it either.

 

[Arigarmy]

Hm, I see.

I won't make a choice yet, though, I need to consider it carefully for myself before agreeing with anyone.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Problem is, he doesn't even need to be in the same universe, he can watch his clones fight, fail, uses conceptual understand to understand her abilities, devise a plan which would likely entail getting a BB he can attack by using BTD to go back in time in whatever universe he's in, get said BB and use it to paradox the one he's been fighting by either just dropping her in on the other with D4C without actually goingvto said universe himself, it shoukd work and paradox BB out, and if it doesn't he can just BTD to the point where saud BB will effect the other BB. Implying he just doesn't skip the middle man and BTD from the other universe by rigging one of his own clones with BTD and rewind time using them while from the safety of another universe, implying she rewrites time and erases the clones, the middle man plan would still work.

 

[Mefre]

technically Stands aren't from earth, they are from a meteor that crashed on earth, so I don't think any of kars's stand powers would be affected.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Maybe but that coukd be grasping at straws, plus Kars himself is from earth. Although he has other ways of getting the win, one of which has yet to be shot down, plus its in character.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The metal that causes people to develop stands is from a meteor that crashed on earth.

The stands that develop are developed on earth, by earthlings, and definitely qualify as "of earth"

Also, BB would start with the BB Channel, a reality marble that lets her manipulate reality as if she is the producer and host of a TV show, and cause everything to go her way and nothing to go well for Kars, ie his powers wouldn't work or would backfire, he'd trip over his own feet trying to punch her, he'd menger sponge himself trying to D4CU (I'm aware that isn't normally possible, but that is the power of the BB channel), etc

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Someone needs to get Reppuzan on this.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

And? How can she prevent Kars from D4C-ing away the second the match starts, it's instantaneous can't really mess up that, implying they're both instant they both pull it off, problem being he won't be there anymore. Everything else he can pull off from a different universe. And paradoxing himself wouldn't work, prior to D4CU another Kars attempted to suicide himself by doing that, he dealt with that before, the only way that'd work is if Channel is cross universal in range otherwise he wouldn't be bothered by it. Plus punching her is probably the last thing he'd do, hed probably start off with D4CU, everything else after that is just whatever is needed to coubter his opponents, pre D4CU hed use punches and Das Boot though.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Actually, he needs to spread his hands. She just needs to think. She could also put herself in imaginary space to give herself as much time as she needs to do whatever she wants

And BB Channel makes everything go in her favour and everything go not in Kars' favour, to the point of making him paradoxing himself, regardless of it meant to be impossible. She can rewrite the laws of reality to make him unable to use his abilities at all the instant the fight starts.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Kars doesn't need to do anything, Valentine needed to do that yes, Kars from what was shown could do it instantaneously, probably due to complete control over his body and actually using stuff like his clothes to D4C away so he to can do at a moment's notice. And once again, he wouldn't paradox himself, if he felt it happening hed stop it if it did happen, plus hed only ever paradox himself if he was in another universe getting another Kars, unless BB Channel has cross universal rasnge it wouldnt matter. Kars could likely reach her in that space with D4C regardless. And just a side note, is BB immune to time stop? I'm guessing she is and it wouldn't matter in the long run but I don't recall seeing a resist to it on her profile.

 

[Reppuzan]

For the record, Potnia Therion extends to Stands.

The reason is the fact that the Earth Mother Goddesses's authority extends to Divine Spirits, which were originally microscopic organisms that came from (you guessed it) an ancient meteor. Said Divine Spirits can control time, space, and the concepts of civilization, world-building, and other facets of existence with a thought and were given their current forms by the thoughts and beliefs of humanity.

Stands, which were also conceptualized by humans (who are born on Earth) would thus be subject to her authority and thus be nullified, as would Kars' other attempts to attack her.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

BB Channel doesn't have cross-universal range. But D4CU does. And BB Channel will make it screw up and either not work, or work wrongly and cause him to paradox himself.

And considering how he normally fights, I very much doubt he is going to travel to a different universe and just watch things from there first thing, while BB is going to BB Channel and info-manip to screw with the laws of the world and stop his powers from working first thing

She was able to exist in a world of indeterminate time that put the rest of existence in a time stop, so I would say yes she is immune.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

>Normally fights. This isn't normal Kars, he's essentially a different character than the one in the manga, first off he's good and not evil for starters. If Channel does not have cross universal range how can it effect him or cause him to screw up while in a different universe? if it can't which you've yet to say how it could the paradox thing is completely irrelevant as hed need to be in another universe for it to work anyway. Plus you're acting like Channel us up preflight, it isn't and even if it takes just a thought it goes the same for Kars too. @Reppuzan I'm aware of that, I wasn't arguing for the Stands are immune thing, but what's stopping Kars from D4c-ing away, watching the fight unfold and understanding her concepts and powers? Considering this is end novel Kars, its likely be the first thing he'd do. After the whole dev and watching he'd understand, Then simply BTD to rewind time in the other universe to grab a BB he can fight and use her to enforce a universal constant on the BB he's fighting, hell he could just rig his dupes with BTD and rewind time that way which wouldn't be an attack against her but himself technically.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

She literally uses the BB Channel for kicks. During this time she can strip other divine beings of their invincibility, manipulate the physical laws of reality to her whim, and freeze space and time as she pleases. It's always up.

She could just as easily nullify D4C before he gets the chance to use it in the first place.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Why would the standard assumption be its up prior to the Battle? As far as I'm aware it's a reality marble, don't those need to be put up and under normal battle assumptions the fight takes place in NY city so it's not like they start off in it.

 

[Reppuzan]

@J-Man

It appeared during the events of Fate Grand Order in a timeline where she nerfed herself on purpose to give the heroes a fighting chance.

She is able to use the processing power of the Moon Cell, which casually sustains dozens of Reality Marbles constantly, to bolster her own calculations and support them.