Notable Bakugan CRT

[Apollonir.Scale]

Abstract Existence

Hydranoid is called "the embodiment of evil". This word is not a figurative meaning. Because Naga has the Silence Core, which has negative energy. Doom Beings were created by Naga, and Naga's ability to create comes from the core of silence. So he created them from negative energy. Wavern states that Hydranoid's attacks contain Negative energy.

All Bakugan, especially Base Drago and Juggernoid, can interact with Hydranoid and other Gatekeepers created by Naga. That's why all Bakugan must have Non-Physical Interaction.

Tigrerra

Since he is a Tiger, he must have all the power and abilities of a Tiger.

It is said that his sword can cut everything in the human world. It should get Durability Negation.

Helios

Helios destroyed the Trap Card with his hand. Trap Card is a type of game mechanic in the Bakugan game, and characters can break it with Power Nullification themed abilities. Helios broke it by hitting it with his hand without using any skill. These cards have no Durability. In other words, being able to break the card cannot be attributed to its great attack power. If that were the case, most characters in the series would cancel the trap card by hitting the card. (Law Manipulation)

Apollonir
He can come into Dan's dreams.

Mechtavius Destroyer

He managed to kill Skyress. Skyress, who could be resurrected after death, could not be resurrected when she was killed by Mechtavius Destroyer. I guess this is Resurrection Negation

BFR Nullification

Wavern
I added this as a BFR resistor, but unfortunately it is not a resistor. We should list this as BFR Nullification. The character cannot escape the effect of BFR without using this ability. So this should be nullification, not resistance.


Durability Negation
This ability is an ability that Ventus Bakugan can use and hits the opponent's internal organs. His talent is evident from his name. Solar Plexus. The skill's effect supports the name because it looks like Monarus has been damaged from the inside.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

looks okay

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

bump

 

[DavidTPPM]

There is a LOT of wrong stuff here ngl

 

[DavidTPPM]

Abstract Existence

Hydranoid is called "the embodiment of evil". This word is not a figurative meaning. Because Naga has the Silence Core, which has negative energy. Doom Beings were created by Naga, and Naga's ability to create comes from the core of silence. So he created them from negative energy. Wavern states that Hydranoid's attacks contain Negative energy.

All Bakugan, especially Base Drago and Juggernoid, can interact with Hydranoid and other Gatekeepers created by Naga. That's why all Bakugan must have Non-Physical Interaction.

What you said doesn't justify it not being just a metaphorical statement. Being called the embodiment of evil is a pretty common figure of speech and having negative energy attacks doesn't change that at all.

Especially given how absolutely nothing in the actual anime seems to be implying Hydra has any sort of unique physiology or state of existence. The only actual piece of evidence is a what seems to be a guidebook which tend to use figures of speech a lot.

Tigrerra

Since he is a Tiger, he must have all the power and abilities of a Tiger.

Uhm, not really. It's a tiger themed bakugan. It's body is clearly notably different from that of an actual tiger.

It is said that his sword can cut everything in the human world. It should get Durability Negation.

Is there any reason to believe this isn't just another figure of speech? Or thanks to its AP? This statement alone isn't enough for durability negation without further context.

Also could you post full translations of the guidebook and explain it's origin? It's kinda hard to use a guidebook most people can't read.

Helios

Helios destroyed the Trap Card with his hand. Trap Card is a type of game mechanic in the Bakugan game, and characters can break it with Power Nullification themed abilities. Helios broke it by hitting it with his hand without using any skill. These cards have no Durability. In other words, being able to break the card cannot be attributed to its great attack power. If that were the case, most characters in the series would cancel the trap card by hitting the card. (Law Manipulation)

No. Just because you could kill an and with a nuclear weapon doesn't mean mean me squishing it proves my fingers have the heat and radiation of a nuclear weapon. So connecting it to power null abilities is baseless.

And there's nothing to indicate it can't be destroyed without law manipulation. It's literally a card he's standing on, it's not some abstract law.

Apollonir
He can come into Dan's dreams.

I guess minor dream manipulation works?

Base Drago

Drago purposely doesn't use the card Dan directs him to play. Although it is controlled by its owner, it does not knowingly show the effect of this ability. So I think this is some kind of Body Puppetry resistance.

Uhhh this would be only limited body puppetry resistance.
Dan states it the best. "Drago has control over the ability cards I HAVE". Not "Drago has control over all ability cards"

And even that he only appears to do by breaking through the cards rather than some hax resistance.

Mechtavius Destroyer

He managed to kill Skyress. Skyress, who could be resurrected after death, could not be resurrected when she was killed by Mechtavius Destroyer. I guess this is Resurrection Negation

That could work depending on what type of resurrection Skyress has. For example being able to come back to life when you get shot in the head does not suggest you can resurrect from getting your entire body completely destroyed (which seems to have been the case here).
So you'll have to prove Skyress was capable of resurrecting from this level of damage before.

Layered Hax

This should probably be posted in the hax layer evaluation thread instead

Power Nullification
You will probably not agree with this, but let me write it anyway. Although Helios has 3 Power Nullfication abilities, he gets rid of Apollonir's ability with his Trap Bakugan, not Power Nullfication. Drago, on the other hand, can get rid of the same ability with Power Nullification.

That's not power nullification, that's absorption. Drago also doesn't STOP siam low, he just starts absorbing Apollos power level back. You can clearly see the energy still flowing from Drago to Apollo even after the ability card is used.

Now, many of you will say that Spectra, the owner of Helios, did this because it did not occur to him. Spectra's favorite Bakugan is Helios and she knows him very well. He knows the limits of his power and every combination of abilities he can perform. Despite this, he chooses to get rid of the ability by combining Mechanical Bakugan and Helios instead of the skill card. Don't say that it can't be his own choice, because Bakugan Brawlers always play the trap Bakugan as a last resort. This is the same for Spectra, although there is a power nullification that he can play with 3, he combines the mechanical bakugan with Helios and does this just when Helios's power drops to 0 and he loses it. So there is no such thing as a hasty decision.

I'm not even sure what you're suggesting here. Are you saying that Helios' use of the card would have not worked meaning
Dragos power null > Apollo > Helios' power null?
If so, then that really doesn't work. You'd first have to prove Helios can even use the ability to begin with as Drago and him are 2 different bakugan with 2 different ability sets.
Then you'd have to prove Spectra didn't use it because it wouldn't work rather than him seeing the trap bakugan as the better option. After all, the trap bakugan both stopped the absorption, raised Helios' power level, AND gave him the additional advantages of the traps abilities.

After all, would you rather only stop your opponents ability or stop your opponents ability and give your bakugan a cool armor with laser guns.

Metal Fencer and Vexos Drago should receive 2-layer Power Nullification.

This also wouldn't be 2 layers even if everything above was correct. At best it would be:
Helios power null (baseline) <Apollos resistance (baseline) < Meta Fencer and Dragos power null (1 layer)

Body Puppetry

Drago has resistance to body puppetry as I explained above, but Spectra's Forbidden card was able to control him. 2-layer Body Puppetry with Forbidden card.

First of all, can you show it? Because iirc the card didn't just body control him but also mind control him. Meaning Dragos body being controlled would be the result of mind control rather than body puppetry.
And again, even if you were right it would only be 1 layer.
Dans cards (baseline) < Dragos resistance (baseline) < Forbidden card (1 layer)

BFR

Wavern, the user of the Infinity Core, should be sent to the Destiny Dimension with BFR, but is not affected by BFR. Another user of the Infinity Core, Drago has been affected by the BFR several times in the series. The important point here for those who don't know is that without the Infinity Core, Wavern has no extra features other than being able to fly. So the BFR resistance comes to it from the infinity core. Drago also has BFR resistance because it has the same core. Despite this, characters like Code Eve and Neo were able to BFR him. Bakugan named Neo also performs BFR while taking Drago into his own pocket dimension. Neo and Code Eve should get 2 layer BFR.

Can you prove the infinite core is the source of the BFR resistance? Also again, please show the scene.
If you can't prove the direct correlation then you can't say Drago should gain BFR resistance off of the infinity core.
Also again, that would only be 1 layer. Same principle as before.

Memory Manipulation

The character who deleted the information that their Bakugan can talk from Shun and Julie's memories cannot change the memories of Gorem and Skyress. From here these two Bakugan should get resistance. Ancient Warriors, on the other hand, can read the minds of others and learn their memories. They can even learn memories they have forgotten. The Ancient Warriors can also learn the memories of Shun, Julie, and their Bakugan. 2-Layer Memory Manipulation

Being able to read memories ≠ being able to delete memories.
First first would be mental manipulation type memory manip while the other would be straight up just telepathy.
Also again, 1 layer not 2.

Mind Manipulation

Naga has resistance to mind manipulation thanks to his silence core. Drago also has mind manipulation resistance because he received this core from him.

Again, can you prove Nagas mind manipulation resistance is granted by the core?

Despite this, Drago's mind is affected by Dharak's attack. 2 layer mind manipulation Dharak

Did Drago even have the core inside him at this point? Also again, 1 later not 2. You're constantly treating baseline hax as 1 layer hax.

Energy Absorption
Doom Dimension absorbs Bakugan's energy. Leonidas, Vladiator and Nonets should gain resistance to the doom dimension as they are not affected by its negative effects.

Can you show them being unaffected by the effects?

Nonets have lived in the Doom Dimension for centuries. Leonidas was born here. In this scene, Dragonoid's energy, which has resistance to Energy Manipulation, is drained by Spatterix + Stronk.

Can you show Dragos energy absorption resistance justification?

2 Layer Energy Absorption

Same as before. 1 layer at best.
Scaling above baseline resistance is only 1 layer of hax.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

What you said doesn't justify it not being just a metaphorical statement. Being called the embodiment of evil is a pretty common figure of speech and having negative energy attacks doesn't change that at all.

Especially given how absolutely nothing in the actual anime seems to be implying Hydra has any sort of unique physiology or state of existence. The only actual piece of evidence is a what seems to be a guidebook which tend to use figures of speech a lot.

Creating Hydranoid and other Doom Beings, Naga creates them thanks to the Silence Core, which consists of negative energy. In other words, it should show that they were created from negative energy. While they were in Michael's laboratory, they began to feel the negative energy. The reason for this was the Silence core.

Is there any reason to believe this isn't just another figure of speech? Or thanks to its AP? This statement alone isn't enough for durability negation without further context.

This phrase is for Base Tigrerra. If Blade were Tigrerra, the connection could be made with her being 2-C.

And there's nothing to indicate it can't be destroyed without law manipulation. It's literally a card he's standing on, it's not some abstract law.

If Trap Cards could be destroyed by the power of Bakugan, many characters would have to achieve this before Helios. Trap card direct game mechanics. That's why trap card effects such as "Wild Joker" are not used when giving abilities to characters in the wiki. Outside of a Bakugan match, when characters actually fight, there are no trap cards. In fact, the characters are surprised that Helios can destroy the Trap Card. Many times in the series they neutralize Trap Cards with Power Nullification. Why would they feel the need to play Power Nullification if they could do it like Helios? Power Nullfication, which cancels the Trap Card, and Power Nulfication, which cancels the opponent's ability, are different. So a character can have both separately. If it was something that could be destroyed with AP, they wouldn't need to use Power Nullification.

You'd first have to prove Helios can even use the ability to begin with as Drago and him are 2 different bakugan with 2 different ability sets.

Nova Sprial
Burst Core

Then you'd have to prove Spectra didn't use it because it wouldn't work rather than him seeing the trap bakugan as the better option. After all, the trap bakugan both stopped the absorption, raised Helios' power level, AND gave him the additional advantages of the traps abilities.

It did not increase Helios' power level. Own strength + Helios's strength is 250G. Also, if it were a more logical move, he could use Burst Core or Nova Sprial first and then summon the mechanical Bakugan.

Can you prove the infinite core is the source of the BFR resistance? Also again, please show the scene.

I wrote exactly above. Wavern has no extra power without the infinity core. Drago is a more adaptable Infinity Core user than Wavern. Already in this wiki, the idea that Drago should have the abilities and resistances that Wavern has with the Infinity Core has been accepted.

Again, can you prove Nagas mind manipulation resistance is granted by the core?

The reason is stated in Naga's profile. While negative energy can manipulate the minds of characters such as Preyas, Fear Ripper and Billy, it cannot manipulate Naga. Drago, on the other hand, receives the core of silence from Naga in the season 1 finale.

Did Drago even have the core inside him at this point? Also again, 1 later not 2. You're constantly treating baseline hax as 1 layer hax.

Drago takes the silence core from Naga in the season 1 finale and combines the two cores to form the Perfect Core. He still has Perfect Core while fighting Dharak.

Can you show them being unaffected by the effects?

If they were affected, the Nonets wouldn't be able to stay in the Doom Dimension for centuries. Over time, their strength would fade and they would turn to stone.

Can you show Dragos energy absorption resistance justification?

Drago has all the Bakugan haxes and resistances except the base form of Leonidas, Mechanical Bakugans and Helios. We have acknowledged this in previous CRTs. Energy absorption resistance comes from Nonets. Apart from this, he fought against Betadron in the Doom Dimension in the last season, and his power was not absorbed by the dimension, nor did he turn into stone. So Drago has all kinds of resistance.

I thought we considered non-layered haxes as 1 layer. Then let me change what I wrote to 1 layer instead of 2 layers.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Creating Hydranoid and other Doom Beings, Naga creates them thanks to the Silence Core, which consists of negative energy. In other words, it should show that they were created from negative energy. While they were in Michael's laboratory, they began to feel the negative energy. The reason for this was the Silence core.

None of those things even remotely imply he's literally embodiment of evil. As it is right now, all we can prove is that some guidebook used a fancy metaphor to say how evil he is.

This phrase is for Base Tigrerra. If Blade were Tigrerra, the connection could be made with her being 2-C.

That doesn't mean anything. The statement could either be hyperbolic or just refer to the blade having enough AP to destroy anything that has been introduced at that point. You need more evidence for durability negation.

If Trap Cards could be destroyed by the power of Bakugan, many characters would have to achieve this before Helios.

That's assuming those "many" are as strong as Helios (and Helios was literally a top tier bakugan at this point in the story) and that the other trap cards are as weak as this one.

There's also the fact that others might have just not thought of it. Overall the evidence is extremely weak and lacking to prove something as major as law manipulation.

Trap card direct game mechanics.

What does that even mean in this case? Minecraft Steve punching is a game mechanic as well but it doesn't give him law manipulation.

That's why trap card effects such as "Wild Joker" are not used when giving abilities to characters in the wiki. Outside of a Bakugan match, when characters actually fight, there are no trap cards.

Unless someone sets a trap card, which is something Bakugan themselves were not shown to be capable of doing as far as I remember.

In fact, the characters are surprised that Helios can destroy the Trap Card.

They could just be surprised by his power.

Many times in the series they neutralize Trap Cards with Power Nullification. Why would they feel the need to play Power Nullification if they could do it like Helios?

Because they were either too weak or the card was too strong.

Power Nullfication, which cancels the Trap Card, and Power Nulfication, which cancels the opponent's ability, are different. So a character can have both separately. If it was something that could be destroyed with AP, they wouldn't need to use Power Nullification.

They would need power null if they didn't have enough AP and as it is rn you didn't show anything that would suggest trap cards are law manipulation or that breaking them requires law manipulation.

Which is another thing btw. Even if you could prove trap cards create laws, that wouldn't mean you need to have law manip to destroy them. Since Helios isn't punching the law but the card itself.

Nova Sprial
Burst Core

Neither of them are the ability Drago used. You'd have to prove Helios can specifically use Dion Durance X.

It did not increase Helios' power level. Own strength + Helios's strength is 250G. Also, if it were a more logical move, he could use Burst Core or Nova Sprial first and then summon the mechanical Bakugan.

Combining with fencer straight up gave him a 400 power boost alongside stopping the power drain. There is no downside to it and kills 2 birds with one stone so I don't see why wouldn't he use it.

I wrote exactly above. Wavern has no extra power without the infinity core.

Headcanon. Also this is about a resistances not powers. She could have no powers but still be resistant to hax.

Drago is a more adaptable Infinity Core user than Wavern. Already in this wiki, the idea that Drago should have the abilities and resistances that Wavern has with the Infinity Core has been accepted.

That doesn't mean it can't be challenged. And now that I actually read the profile, Waverns "resistance" actually comes from an ability and isn't passive. Meaning that BFRing her or people with her abilities is completely possible unless they specifically use the ability (and the link doesn't work so idek what ability)

The reason is stated in Naga's profile. While negative energy can manipulate the minds of characters such as Preyas, Fear Ripper and Billy, it cannot manipulate Naga. Drago, on the other hand, receives the core of silence from Naga in the season 1 finale.

Bro, her resistance says she was unaffected WHEN TAKING OVER THE SILENT CORE. That outright debunks the resistance coming from the silent core.

If they were affected, the Nonets wouldn't be able to stay in the Doom Dimension for centuries.

Headcanon.

Over time, their strength would fade and they would turn to stone.

Or maybe they have so much strength they didn't turn to stone yet. Or they simply gain back strength faster than they lose it.

Drago has all the Bakugan haxes and resistances except the base form of Leonidas, Mechanical Bakugans and Helios. We have acknowledged this in previous CRTs. Energy absorption resistance comes from Nonets. Apart from this, he fought against Betadron in the Doom Dimension in the last season, and his power was not absorbed by the dimension, nor did he turn into stone. So Drago has all kinds of resistance.

That doesn't tell me much. Drago can have however many abilities that can counter absorption but that won't give him a real resistance. Fighting in the doom dimension doesn't mean he has resistance to absorption because he could just have so much energy it takes a long time to absorb it.
Especially since he's extremely high into 2-C by that point.

I thought we considered non-layered haxes as 1 layer. Then let me change what I wrote to 1 layer instead of 2 layers.

Sure. I struggled with that a bit myself ngl.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Hydranoid is called "the embodiment of evil". This word is not a figurative meaning. Because Naga has the Silence Core, which has negative energy.

Those two have nothing to do with each other.

Hydranoid wasn’t, at the very least as an species, created by Naga, we see him in the very first episode of the series before Naga tampers and gets absorbed within the Silent Core when trying to get them both to himself, before the worlds of Vestroia were merged.

Doom Beings were created by Naga, and Naga's ability to create comes from the core of silence.

Hydranoid isn’t a "Doom Being" as Doom Beings don’t conceptually exist in the series, only Naga's allies, in which you can include his underlings when the Brawlers went to Vestroia, who on turn exist because of the ecological conditions that the merging of the Attribute worlds caused. However it’s assumed on how these spawns are created, they don’t have the same origin via virtue of faction.

All Bakugan, especially Base Drago and Juggernoid, can interact with Hydranoid and other Gatekeepers created by Naga. That's why all Bakugan must have Non-Physical Interaction.

Hydranoid isn’t incorporeal nor intangible, so no.

Since he is a Tiger, he must have all the power and abilities of a Tiger.

Don’t agree with the premise on itself, but Tigrerra has shown every indexed ability of a tiger so w/e.

It is said that his sword can cut everything in the human world. It should get Durability Negation.

This is just high sharpness, there’s no material on the human world by S1 above Bakugan's themselves, so disagree.

Mechtavius Destroyer

He managed to kill Skyress. Skyress, who could be resurrected after death, could not be resurrected when she was killed by Mechtavius Destroyer. I guess this is Resurrection Negation

Skyress had never her body destroyed up to that point as far as I'm concerned, so disagree.

Energy Absorption
Doom Dimension absorbs Bakugan's energy. Leonidas, Vladiator and Nonets should gain resistance to the doom dimension as they are not affected by its negative effects. Nonets have lived in the Doom Dimension for centuries. Leonidas was born here. In this scene, Dragonoid's energy, which has resistance to Energy Manipulation, is drained by Spatterix + Stronk. 2 Layer Energy Absorption

Leonidas and Vladitor should get it. Nonets and whoever else from the anime continuity no. The Game and the anime are different continuities, and how the Doom Dimension works in the game contradicts what happened when the Brawlers got sent there before their trials in S1, despite being previous version of those who were helpless against Vladitor because of the effects of the Doom Dimension.

Had a lot to say, but hate how the site lags, so w/e.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Hydranoid wasn’t, at the very least as an species, created by Naga, we see him in the very first episode of the series before Naga tampers and gets absorbed within the Silent Core when trying to get them both to himself, before the worlds of Vestroia were merged.

I forgot this scene. My fault.

That doesn't mean it can't be challenged. And now that I actually read the profile, Waverns "resistance" actually comes from an ability and isn't passive. Meaning that BFRing her or people with her abilities is completely possible unless they specifically use the ability (and the link doesn't work so idek what ability)

He was able to use the ability without being BFRed to the dimension. Normally other Bakugan cannot do this. Wouldn't there be at least limited resistance? If neither option works, BFR resistance can be removed from the profile.

Bro, her resistance says she was unaffected WHEN TAKING OVER THE SILENT CORE. That outright debunks the resistance coming from the silent core.

Naga's mind manipulation comes from the negative energy of the Silence Core. When this energy interacts with him, he cannot manipulate Naga's mind. I don't understand why there is no resistance.

That doesn't tell me much. Drago can have however many abilities that can counter absorption but that won't give him a real resistance. Fighting in the doom dimension doesn't mean he has resistance to absorption because he could just have so much energy it takes a long time to absorb it.
Especially since he's extremely high into 2-C by that point.

Even Delta Drago, who is 2-C, states that it is difficult to breathe in the Doom Dimension. When you enter the Doom Dimension in the last season, you do not encounter such problems.

 

[DavidTPPM]

He was able to use the ability without being BFRed to the dimension. Normally other Bakugan cannot do this. Wouldn't there be at least limited resistance? If neither option works, BFR resistance can be removed from the profile.

If an ability allows him to resist BFR then it can be on the profile. The only thing is that, BFRing him won't give you layered BFR unless he tried to use the ability that grants him resistance and failed.

For example if kamui allowed Obito to resist BFR and you BFRed him when he wasn't using kamui, then the BFR wouldn't be layered as you're not actually overcoming any resistance.

Naga's mind manipulation comes from the negative energy of the Silence Core. When this energy interacts with him, he cannot manipulate Naga's mind. I don't understand why there is no resistance.

The profile says this as justification

Immunity to Mind Manipulation (Was completely unaffected when taking over the Silent Core, which is the source of Negative Energy in the Bakugan Universe and can effectively take over, control and/or corrupt other Humans and Bakugan, such as Fearipper and Preyas[6])

This means that the silent core itself passively manipulates your mind but it didn't mind hax Naga. Which inherently means Naga had resistance even without the core and that it's resistance isn't granted by the core but is its own.

Even Delta Drago, who is 2-C, states that it is difficult to breathe in the Doom Dimension. When you enter the Doom Dimension in the last season, you do not encounter such problems.

Yeah that doesn't change what I said. Drago literally has more than infinite amount of energy in terms of AP. So it surviving power absorption doesn't necessarily grant resistance without further context suggesting so.

Also side note, Nagas mind manipulation immunity should be changed to resistance as the justification isn't nearly enough for complete immunity.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Drago moves the phases that make up Vestroia while assembling them. Does this mean his LS is Universal?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

.

Drago moves the phases that make up Vestroia while assembling them. Does this mean his LS is Universal?

So what do you think about this?

 

[DavidTPPM]

So what do you think about this?

Oh sorry I wanted to reply but I got busy.

Is there anything further context you can provide? I watched bakugan when like 8 years ago when my English wasn't that good yet so I don't exactly remember the details. I only played the gameboy and psp games in the past 5 years.

Just from the way it looks, I would say it seems mostly like hax or a side effect of a hax that merges the realms.

Also I THINK that I remember some higher level bakugan having problems picking up giant boulders and similar things which would work as anti feats (although like I said, I don't exactly remember the specific scenes so this doesn't mean that much unless you can remember something yourself)

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Just from the way it looks, I would say it seems mostly like hax or a side effect of a hax that merges the realms.

Alien X received the Infinity LS with similar feat. What Alien X did was create the universe and move its contents. Drago's job is to move the 6 Universes to unite them with each other. That's why I think his LS may also increase.

Also I THINK that I remember some higher level bakugan having problems picking up giant boulders and similar things which would work as anti feats (although like I said, I don't exactly remember the specific scenes so this doesn't mean that much unless you can remember something yourself)

In fact, in the Class M calculation made for Drago, we see that he has difficulty carrying the BT System at first, but since the author generally does not focus on the buoyancy of the characters in such series, there may be moments when such characters are unnecessarily underestimated. For example, Ben10 aliens are at least Class K, but they get stuck under rocks many times, and being under rocks is a very bad situation for them. Considering that Drago may also have Universal LS, it is really difficult to show that a character with Universal LS is at this level in every scene. I think what I'm describing is called PIS. By the way, there is no other scene that constitutes an anti-feat, other than having difficulty carrying the BT System. I think this could be seen as PIS in this scene.

Oh sorry I wanted to reply but I got busy.

No problem

 

[DavidTPPM]

Alien X received the Infinity LS with similar feat. What Alien X did was create the universe and move its contents. Drago's job is to move the 6 Universes to unite them with each other. That's why I think his LS may also increase.

Idk, the Alien X feat looks like he's actually moving galaxies and stuff with telekinesis while with Dragos it kidna looks like a side effect of a specific ability.

In fact, in the Class M calculation made for Drago, we see that he has difficulty carrying the BT System at first, but since the author generally does not focus on the buoyancy of the characters in such series,

Yeah ngl that seems like a defeater. He clearly doesn't physically scale to the universes moving.

there may be moments when such characters are unnecessarily underestimated. For example, Ben10 aliens are at least Class K, but they get stuck under rocks many times, and being under rocks is a very bad situation for them. Considering that Drago may also have Universal LS, it is really difficult to show that a character with Universal LS is at this level in every scene. I think what I'm describing is called PIS. By the way, there is no other scene that constitutes an anti-feat, other than having difficulty carrying the BT System. I think this could be seen as PIS in this scene.

I mean I get what you mean. Him struggling to lift BT system could just be an outlier but given how vague the universal feat is, I feel like it's easier to dismiss that as just a mechanic of a specific ability or an outlier than this.

Are there any other scenes that could either support his LS being around M class or lower, or scenes that would support his LS being universal?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Are there any other scenes that could either support his LS being around M class or lower, or scenes that would support his LS being universal?

There is no anti feat to show anything below Class M. They almost don't perform LS Feat anyway. Even though it was not a Universal LS, it was able to withstand the gravity of the Black Hole for a while.

Base Gorem was able to withstand falling into the Doom Dimension for a while. But this is more like Restricted BFR Resistance. Of course, this is not an anti-feat. Because this doesn't measure up to the unevolved Gorem and Infinity Drago anyway.

Idk, the Alien X feat looks like he's actually moving galaxies and stuff with telekinesis while with Dragos it kidna looks like a side effect of a specific ability.

I also thought he might have telekinesis, but I guess that's why they rated it that way: It's considered Pure LS unless it's stated that the character does it with telekinesis or a special hax. You need to find the CRT from which Alien X used the Infinity LS and look at its source. But I'm sure there is such a rule. Because Hagoromo moves the Moon thanks to his rinnegan, he gets LS with his telekinesis.

 

[DavidTPPM]

There is no anti feat to show anything below Class M. They almost don't perform LS Feat anyway. Even though it was not a Universal LS, it was able to withstand the gravity of the Black Hole for a while.

That could be both a good counter argument to universal LS and a good LS feat. But do you have any evidence it's an actual black hole? The video is in Japanese and the design of the hole doesn't really look like a black hole.

I also thought he might have telekinesis, but I guess that's why they rated it that way: It's considered Pure LS unless it's stated that the character does it with telekinesis or a special hax. You need to find the CRT from which Alien X used the Infinity LS and look at its source. But I'm sure there is such a rule. Because Hagoromo moves the Moon thanks to his rinnegan, he gets LS with his telekinesis.

Yeah TK lifting strength and physical LS aren't considered the same unless there are feats of them scaling to each other.

Either way even if you could prove Drago has TK with universal lifting strength, it wouldn't matter because he literally never uses it in character. Meaning he either lost it or never had it to begin with.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

That could be both a good counter argument to universal LS and a good LS feat. But do you have any evidence it's an actual black hole? The video is in Japanese and the design of the hole doesn't really look like a black hole.

Now I listened to what the character said. The name of the gate card the character uses is "Darkon Nebulas". It says Dark Nebula. So it's not a black hole. But I think this would at least give him Star level buoyancy. So we can say that his buoyancy is Star level, and his Telekinesis is Universal. Of course, he does not prefer to use his telekinesis.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

bump

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Drago doesn’t scales to the shift in Vestroia because he wasn’t the one who did that. It was the Perfect Core, who was one and the same with Drago until New Vestroia. Drago literally cannot do this without becoming the Perfect Core, which is an strictly non-combat aplicable version of himself.

Aside of that, it’s really warping.

Besides that, Drago doesn’t even has actual telekinetic powers.

Also, it would be Immeasurable LS.

That said, Bakugan's LS is definitely above Class M, but going for cosmic LS is… a glaring no-no.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Also, it would be Immeasurable LS.

That said, Bakugan's LS is definitely above Class M, but going for cosmic LS is… a glaring no-no.

I can't think of any scenes that would contradict Star level and above LS. Also, even if the scene I shared the link above will be considered an immeasurable LS feat, can it only be added to the Core Drago who cannot fight? If so, can we say that Code Eve is superior to Core Drago and consider Razenoid and Titanium Dragonoid, which surpass Code Eve, as immeasurable LS?

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

I can't think of any scenes that would contradict Star level and above LS

Half of Mechtanium Surge hazards make no sense with cosmic levels of LS in mind. Drago has been literally screwed over by debris and natural air currents. There’s also a whole episode around that one time Runo's Bakutoy whose whole gimmick was how high he could jump and still needed assistance to jump over the cloud line despite explicitly doing his best, which doesn’t makes sense if you go by the assumption his muscles have the enough strength to move astronomical objects.

Also, even if the scene I shared the link above will be considered an immeasurable LS feat, can it only be added to the Core Drago who cannot fight?

As I said before, it’s mostly reality warping, other than that, don’t really care. If the feat is rated Immeasurable, sure, Perfect Core Dragonoid can have it.

If so, can we say that Code Eve is superior to Core Drago and consider Razenoid and Titanium Dragonoid, which surpass Code Eve, as immeasurable LS?

Everyone is currently scaling around the Perfect Core. Bakugan doesn’t has a universal energy system like that nor a reason to assume that characters scale to the "lifting side" of the Perfect Core's shift of Vestroia; for all and how it’s presented, it’s an ability unique of the core, which is fitting with the fact that Drago has to sacrifice his own body to become the Perfect Core itself to perform it despite already possessing the power of the Perfect Core; even through the Perfect Core does not requires him in the same way to do so as of New Vestroia once Drago separated himself from it to return to the human world.

TL;DR: X > Perfect Core = AP =/= Hypothetical LS

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Half of Mechtanium Surge hazards make no sense with cosmic levels of LS in mind. Drago has been literally screwed over by debris and natural air currents. There’s also a whole episode around that one time Runo's Bakutoy whose whole gimmick was how high he could jump and still needed assistance to jump over the cloud line despite explicitly doing his best, which doesn’t makes sense if you go by the assumption his muscles have the enough strength to move astronomical objects.

So can't this be explained as outliers? You're probably talking about this part. According to the anti feat in this section, shouldn't it be below Class M or even Class 100? Even the weakest Bakugan are considered Class 50 to Class 100 because they are as big as Building. The Hurricane is possibly Class 10 according to this profile, and there are a lot of Bakugan in the series that can make big tornadoes. Drago performs a Class M level feat in season 2. Its ability to resist the Darkon Nebulus I shared above can be considered at least Star level LS. So, I think it would be an outlier if such anti feats suddenly appeared when there was no information that the character's muscles had weakened. I don't know if you've watched Ben10, but even though most of the characters are at least Class K, they stay under rocks and many of them happen to the character. In Dragon Ball, Krillin is Class K, but he has difficulty doing Bench Press.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

So can't this be explained as outliers?

Yeah, partly.

But the point of categorizing outliers is how they can fundamentally break the structure of the setting. Which why Class M-ish makes sense within the series despite the existence of variable showings, but the concept of Bakugan having the strength to move planets doesn’t; specially when it comes to affecting a large scale of Bakugan as it would be turning early Mechtanium Surge Dragonoid into an stellar lifter (This is why you'll often find threats pointing out how something isn’t an outlier because only one or a set amount of characters scales to the feat, because otherwise it’ll break the setting altogether).

Going by Ben 10, the example would be if one day, I don’t know, Beast bench presses the weight of a planet, which would be a no-no if applied to the profiles.

That said.

Even the weakest Bakugan are considered Class 50 to Class 100 because they are as big as Building. The Hurricane is possibly Class 10 according to this profile

Real life isn’t that one on one. Realistically, a hurricane moves way more mass than 10 tons, the area is just so wide that it doesn’t really affects us.

Assuming we’re talking about the same scene, the point isn’t to say that Drago is weaker than the wind at the morning. Is that he isn’t able (or i mean, he is able, but still struggles in breaking in) to support his own weight against it, which is already superior to 10 tons. Might it be the fairest interpretation of Drago's strength? I Can agree that it's not, but I can agree is more on line with his showings than supporting the weight of a star.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Half of Mechtanium Surge hazards make no sense with cosmic levels of LS in mind. Drago has been literally screwed over by debris and natural air currents. There’s also a whole episode around that one time Runo's Bakutoy whose whole gimmick was how high he could jump and still needed assistance to jump over the cloud line despite explicitly doing his best, which doesn’t makes sense if you go by the assumption his muscles have the enough strength to move astronomical objects.

Which episode are you talking about? Worton vs Drago episode came to my mind.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Which episode are you talking about? Worton vs Drago episode came to my mind.

The episode where Dan and Drago have their training arc in New Vestroia during their emo phase at Mechtanium surge, IIRC the same episode they meet Wayvern again.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

The episode where Dan and Drago have their training arc in New Vestroia during their emo phase at Mechtanium surge, IIRC the same episode they meet Wayvern again.

This scene? Winds in Vestroia can be much stronger than on Earth. At first I thought he was talking about an episode where real-life winds affected him negatively. When you wrote Runo's Bakutoy episode, I thought of Mechtanium Surge Arc2.

However, this scene needs to be mentioned. Drago said, "I'm fine, but we're not compatible. "Otherwise, it wouldn't be a problem to arrange this," he says. In other words, their inability to overcome the winds is attributed to their adaptability. Later in the scene, Wavern confirms Drago by saying, "Drago is right, Dan." "As a team, you can overcome any obstacle you encounter," he says. So Wavern is also aware that it is not a big problem for Drago to not be able to go into the sky because of the winds. These characters are like having a mental nerf in this episode. At worst, Amazon's LS is not measured on Drago.

The fact that the character received a mental nerf and lost his harmony with Dan somewhat supports this situation.

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.

TL;DR: X > Perfect Core = AP =/= Hypothetical LS

There are also a few things I forgot to mention. Perfect Core is part of Code. So shouldn't its LS be measured because it should be at least comparable to its own part?

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

This scene? Winds in Vestroia can be much stronger than on Earth.

I don’t necessary disagree with the idea that winds in New Vestroia can be stronger than on earth. It’s a smaller planet with seemingly the same gravity, which should result on different conditions after all.

That said, "Planet lifting wind" isn’t really credible.

However, this scene needs to be mentioned. Drago said, "I'm fine, but we're not compatible. "Otherwise, it wouldn't be a problem to arrange this," he says. In other words, their inability to overcome the winds is attributed to their adaptability. Later in the scene, Wavern confirms Drago by saying, "Drago is right, Dan." "As a team, you can overcome any obstacle you encounter," he says. So Wavern is also aware that it is not a big problem for Drago to not be able to go into the sky because of the winds. These characters are like having a mental nerf in this episode. At worst, Amazon's LS is not measured on Drago.

The fact that the character received a mental nerf and lost his harmony with Dan somewhat supports this situation.

They do it again at the end of (or the next?) the episode. Drago still struggles before breaking through.

'Sides, I don’t get why this point is relevant when the supposed Stellar LS feat happens vs Anubias is when Drago is already in such state — He's by no means bazillions of times weaker

There are also a few things I forgot to mention. Perfect Core is part of Code. So shouldn't its LS be measured because it should be at least comparable to its own part?

AFAIK, the Sacred Orb is just part of every Bakugan because it holds the DNA of all Bakugan. The Perfect Core is not a Bakugan.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

'Sides, I don’t get why this point is relevant when the supposed Stellar LS feat happens vs Anubias is when Drago is already in such state — He's by no means bazillions of times weaker

The effect of the Harmony/Mental nerf is not something that can be expressed with numbers. A definite comment cannot be made, such as losing weight a little or losing weight a lot. His weakening in the war with Anubias may not have been to the same extent as his weakening in New Vestroia. As a result, they lost to a duo like Anubias and Horridian, who were below their level, and everyone started to see them as "losers who are afraid to use their power, those who cheat by summoning Mechtogan in battle". Even their friends like Shun and Marucho, with whom they have been fighting together for years, are angry with them. They got into such a bad situation that they decided to go to New Vestroia and get away from people.

They do it again at the end of (or the next?) the episode. Drago still struggles before breaking through.

Another argument against this is that their alignment is still not complete. Early in Episode 14, Drago says, "It may sound crazy, but I think we're very compatible." Then, when it came to Drago, he said, "Finally, our training pays off. "Maybe we should try Zenthon for a spin and see how I can control it," he says. They were also able to summon the Mechtogan Titan in this episode, and for this they need to be compatible. In short, from the moment Wavern says her words, they begin to harmonize, and in the 14th episode, they become fully harmonious.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

The effect of the Harmony/Mental nerf is not something that can be expressed with numbers. A definite comment cannot be made, such as losing weight a little or losing weight a lot.

Something being qualitative and not quantitative doesn’t means you can't get an idea of the gig. Every supernatural type of energy non-measured goes by comparing non-quantity aspects. Power scaling as a whole often is.

Saying "Drago isn’t remarkably weaker in this scene for him to be orders of magnitude weaker" when speaking of a similar context isn’t off.

His weakening in the war with Anubias may not have been to the same extent as his weakening in New Vestroia.

This is speculative as it also happens after Dan and Drago reinforce their bond in New Vestroia after getting over Mag Mel's shenanigans. It also happens right after Drago fights on an equal footing with Zenthon despite the fact that the Drago that lost to Anubias was the same that was being destroyed by Zenthon before, even when, unlike with Anubias, Drago had no reason to hold back against Zethon at all.

Another argument against this is that their alignment is still not complete.

Yeah, but my point is that it wasn’t before neither.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

This is speculative as it also happens after Dan and Drago reinforce their bond in New Vestroia after getting over Mag Mel's shenanigans.

Which section? I couldn't see any anti feat after episode 14.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I removed the layered haxes from the CRT and added a few new things. I suggest you look again. We can continue discussing LS. I don't have much time right now. I will add it to CRT later when it becomes available.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

AFAIK, the Sacred Orb is just part of every Bakugan because it holds the DNA of all Bakugan. The Perfect Core is not a Bakugan.

Well, because of the statement "He was almost as strong as the Perfect Core" for Neo Dragonoid, can't we measure his LS from the Perfect Core?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

What do you think about dura neg?

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[Apollonir.Scale]

bump

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

bump