-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Non-Physical Interaction in Bleach and Intangibilities for Souls
- Thread starter Elizhaa
- Start date
- 16,959
- 4,855
Again, that isn't an excuse.
Or should we downgrade every MFTL character because FTL speeds don't exist in our world?
Or should we downgrade every MFTL character because FTL speeds don't exist in our world?
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
- 16,912
- 7,361
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyo
His point is that referring to something as a "True spirit" makes no sense due to no objective equivalence IRL. Idk why you two are arguing over this anyways since the gist of what he means is still there with or without the specific terminology. Kukui is arguing that they aren't intangible.
His point is that referring to something as a "True spirit" makes no sense due to no objective equivalence IRL. Idk why you two are arguing over this anyways since the gist of what he means is still there with or without the specific terminology. Kukui is arguing that they aren't intangible.
- 2,047
- 778
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I didn't know Ghosts and souls need to follow a certain criteria for them to be real souls. Souls also very on how they behave depending on the religion. The argument that "bLeAcH sOuLs AreN't ReAl SoUlS" makes no sense and honestly shouldn't be used. Again souls and how they behave vary from religion to religious. And they are intangible as seen with the scans above.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
- 16,912
- 7,361
Again this is pretty irrelevant. The important part is saying that they're not intangible. Now, he has supplied no arguments or scans to back up his claim, but the "real spirits" thing is just a phrasing deal and arguing over that in particular is pedanticism.
- 4,327
- 2,978
Rukia's statement is that only Hollows and Shinigami are tangible amongst spirits due to their high spiritual density. Regular spirits don't have such density and are deemed as ghost, souls, spirits in the manga and databook.
Kukui is gonna need more evidence besides his words if he wants to pass that.
Kukui is gonna need more evidence besides his words if he wants to pass that.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Since when are Spirit Ribbons intangible also? Spirit Ribbons are the physical manefiestions of spirit energy in the air/atmosphere. Again, physical. The ribbons being intangible makes no sense.MachTwo said:
And even if they were, Ichigo and Uryu touching them is not a feat as its there own energy, which they can obviously touch. Thats like saying any DB character can hurt intangbles because they can physically make contact with KI attacks.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
- 16,912
- 7,361
Ki blasts are decidedly not intangible. Look at how they impact on the ground and stuff. Bad equivalence. Your argument would be better with scans, as as of now all I have to go off of is what Nedge posted above, which you have not addressed.
- 16,959
- 4,855
@Rin
While yes we don't have guidelines for spirits, the spirits in Bleach are obviously not behaving like actual spirits do.
They eat, they age, can have children, they can bleed, be killed, they're literally no different from living beings only in spiritual form. Real Spirits have none of this. Do they have spiritual qualities to them? Yes of course. But they don't have the same things as actual spirits.
And while you can argue spirits don't exist in RL, Fiction certainly has the main standard as them behaving like real spirits.
@Mach
Theory =/= fact. So irrelevant and completely missing my point (but I think Woki kind of clarified this).
@Woki
And Spirit Ribbions don't? They literally fall under that as well. They're physical manefistations of ones own spirit energy, that definitely proves they arent intangible like spirit energy is otherwise. And even then, saying Ichigo, Uryu, etc. cant touch their own energy is ridiculous. They obviously can, but that isn't a feat for them for reasons that should be very obvious.
While yes we don't have guidelines for spirits, the spirits in Bleach are obviously not behaving like actual spirits do.
They eat, they age, can have children, they can bleed, be killed, they're literally no different from living beings only in spiritual form. Real Spirits have none of this. Do they have spiritual qualities to them? Yes of course. But they don't have the same things as actual spirits.
And while you can argue spirits don't exist in RL, Fiction certainly has the main standard as them behaving like real spirits.
@Mach
Theory =/= fact. So irrelevant and completely missing my point (but I think Woki kind of clarified this).
@Woki
And Spirit Ribbions don't? They literally fall under that as well. They're physical manefistations of ones own spirit energy, that definitely proves they arent intangible like spirit energy is otherwise. And even then, saying Ichigo, Uryu, etc. cant touch their own energy is ridiculous. They obviously can, but that isn't a feat for them for reasons that should be very obvious.
- 2,047
- 778
Repeating arguments from someone else, almost word for word i see. I don't need to tell you what's wrong with that. Also good job completing ignoring the scans above which I think is intentional on your part to downplay. And it's up to the author in said fiction to give us mechanics on how the Soul works. Souls aging, bleeding and having children don't disqualify them being souls. Again this seems like an excuse to downplay. They're intangible, as seen with the scans, the point of the series and the only thing used against it is that Shinigami are specifically made of high density Reishi.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
- 16,912
- 7,361
Ok but you just didn't address the scan nedge posted at all. it makes no reference to soul ribbons or anything, just saying that two classes of individual can't normally be touched by humans.
- 1,200
- 109
Ichigo didn't touch his own spirit energy, tbh Spirit Ribbons cannot physical interact with thing and only skilled shinigami can interact with them, unlike Ki blast plus why you think Ki blast is intangible.MachTwo said:
Theory =/= fact
According to science there are no Theory nor fact about the existence of spirit.
Its 100% fictional things that the author can determine their nature to their own preference.
- 2,604
- 469
I agree with non-physical interaction. The spirit ribbons said to be invisible and intangible by Ishida. Also, Ichigo was touching Yuichi's spirit ribbons and Ishida was touching Ichigo's spirit ribbons so they're not touching their own ribbons. It wouldn't make sense if it is not intangible and invisible as ordinary human will notice that large amount of ribbons.
- 16,959
- 4,855
First of all, I have the actual Bleach books in my posession IRL and have read them over multiple times. The scans being posted or not do make a world of a difference, I know exactly what the OP is talking about.
Second, thats not how this works. Souls in overall fiction aren't depicted as being the spiritual equivalant to living beings, which are the complete opposite of spirits. The main standard for spirits in fiction is for them to behave like actual spirits. Being intangible, non-living, and so on. If a verse has standards for their spirits that go against that, then it means they aren't real spirits. Simple as that.
You can't use "its fiction" or "up to the author" as an excuse to ignore that. What is shown >>> Author Intent. And if the intent for them was to make them different than actual spirits, that hammers the point home even more.
Third, nothing in these scans proves they're intangible. In fact, Chad being able to hit them with a telephone pole is actually evidence against that.
Second, thats not how this works. Souls in overall fiction aren't depicted as being the spiritual equivalant to living beings, which are the complete opposite of spirits. The main standard for spirits in fiction is for them to behave like actual spirits. Being intangible, non-living, and so on. If a verse has standards for their spirits that go against that, then it means they aren't real spirits. Simple as that.
You can't use "its fiction" or "up to the author" as an excuse to ignore that. What is shown >>> Author Intent. And if the intent for them was to make them different than actual spirits, that hammers the point home even more.
Third, nothing in these scans proves they're intangible. In fact, Chad being able to hit them with a telephone pole is actually evidence against that.
- 10,043
- 9,293
At times like these, I wish illuminati was still here...
- 4,327
- 2,978
Chad's a Fullbringer, it explains why he could.
And Rukia even said that Hollows and Shinigami possess high spiritual density bodies which allows them to be touched. It's the souls/ghost that have low spiritual density that can't be touched by humans, only Shinigami and Hollows can touch those.
And Rukia even said that Hollows and Shinigami possess high spiritual density bodies which allows them to be touched. It's the souls/ghost that have low spiritual density that can't be touched by humans, only Shinigami and Hollows can touch those.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Uryu doesnt say they're intangible though, he says "even a skilled Soul Reaper can touch them".Dat Dot said:
Plus the fact that the ribbons are supposed to manefestations of spirit energy. Manafestation =/= intangible. The whole point for it is to be completely tangible to touch in the 1st place.
- 16,959
- 4,855
And Chad didnt have his powers activated yet. Before that he was literally just a regular human.IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
- 2,047
- 778
That's great do you want a trophy? Owning the books doesn't mean that you automatically are an expert on the series. Especially considering you have yet to counter or debunk them. Instead you've been avoiding it and simply saying no over and over again. The scans debunk what you have to say. Rukia states that they're intangible and invisible to normal humans. The reason why Shinigami can get hit is because of their High Density Reishi Bodies. You've been ignoring this and it smells bias to me.
And again, if Souls in fiction behave differently in another work of fiction that doesn't mean anything. Souls vary from fiction to fiction and from religion to religion. The point of Bleach is a spiritual setting. This enough along with the scans should be proof enough. You can't simply write off the point the author is trying to bring especially whenever they're true and valid.
Last time I checked Chad didn't hit Spirit Ribbons.
And again, if Souls in fiction behave differently in another work of fiction that doesn't mean anything. Souls vary from fiction to fiction and from religion to religion. The point of Bleach is a spiritual setting. This enough along with the scans should be proof enough. You can't simply write off the point the author is trying to bring especially whenever they're true and valid.
Last time I checked Chad didn't hit Spirit Ribbons.
- 7,069
- 1,457
Rukia directly says Hollows and Soul Reapers can't be touched by Normal HumansProfessorKukui4Life said:
And Chad is a Fullbringer, they can use the souls in objects to assist them. And even without realizing his arms power, he still shows enough spiritual awareness to do so and notice that something is near
- 2,047
- 778
And Chad didnt have his powers activated yet. Before that he was literally just a regular human.
> Ignoring everything in Bleach has a soul.
> Ignoring everything in Bleach has a soul.
- 7,069
- 1,457
Uryu doesnt say they're intangible though, he says "even a skilled Soul Reaper can touch them".
Plus the fact that the ribbons are supposed to manefestations of spirit energy. Manafestation =/= intangible. The whole point for it is to be completely tangible to touch in the 1st place.
Uryu says "A good Soul Reaper can see them. A skilled one can even touch them." As in even if they are visible, they are intangible unless your a skilled enough soul reaper.
Plus the fact that the ribbons are supposed to manefestations of spirit energy. Manafestation =/= intangible. The whole point for it is to be completely tangible to touch in the 1st place.
Uryu says "A good Soul Reaper can see them. A skilled one can even touch them." As in even if they are visible, they are intangible unless your a skilled enough soul reaper.
- 20,535
- 17,444
> Rukia directly says Hollows and Soul Reapers can't be touched by Normal Humans
As mentioned/shown earlier that was a Viz error. In Japanese she did say humans can touch them due to their super high spirit density, but they just can't sense them.
As mentioned/shown earlier that was a Viz error. In Japanese she did say humans can touch them due to their super high spirit density, but they just can't sense them.
- 1,200
- 109
- 4,327
- 2,978
That's not how Fullbringers work. They are born with their powers. They are born with higher Reiryoku and their powers. The issue is knowledge on how to use their actual Fullbring item.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
- 20,535
- 17,444
Do we have any profiles for fodders?MachTwo said:
- 16,959
- 4,855
Never said I was an expert though. So your putting words in my mouth. I said that I know enough to comment on this topic whether the scans are posted or not.Rin The Dragon Empress said:
Anyway, Chad seems to heavily disprove Rukias statement since he did not remotely make use of his Fullbringer powers at that point yet. He was still a complete ordinary human. Not to mention Ichigo made contact with Rukia before getting Soul Reaper powers himself in literally the 1st chapter/episode. Also, if high Spirit density is that important here than that proves they don't have real intangibility since thats basically saying they're tangible. It makes no sense that spirits with lower spiritual density bodies can't suddenly be touched but ones with higher spirit density can.
It does. It means spirits in their specific verse aren't real spirits. Im not going to comment on religion in a debate because thats a whole other can of worms, but its like I said before. What the author intends to do is crap compared to what is actually shown. That is what we go by here.
I never said he did. But he did hit a hollow when he was still a human, pre-fullbring.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Born with their powers doesnt automatically mean they can make use of them without knowing.IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Im sorry, but this seems to be a like very big excuse in order to counter inconsistency.
